No to "Noobtube"

(organon) #41

Never really liked the grenades in CS that didn’t kill with one shot. Especially since you had to buy them and you could only carry one, so they were very restricted already.

But I absolutely HATE the nade spamming going on in CoD4. Since it discouraged offensive play and encouraged camping. That’s also why I actually liked martyrdom: rewards offensive play and punishes campers.

And the only problem I had with the CoD noobtube was, that it was impossible to kill yourself with it at close range.

The way to fix this IMHO would be to make all grenades real frag grenades. No splash damage, but a somewhat randomized cloud of shrapnel similar to the shotgun pellets. Having the nade at your feet defeinitley kills you, but the thinning out of the shrapnel with distance (and maybe even a damage decrease of every single piece with distance) doesn’t overpower it. And lets you still deal damage to a whole room. And makes using a nade also somewhat of a gamble.

Doing a little math:

If you do a pentakis dodecahedron pattern, then you have 60 pieces of shrapnel. If the grenades explodes on the ground then you get hit at 5m distance by maybe 2-3 shrapnel pieces. And it would also reward proper nade priming, since having the grenade explode at half body height above ground basically doubles the damage it deals.

(darthmob) #42

organon:
To be honest I thought about mentioning the CS grenades as the worst implementation of grenades in a game ever but didn’t do it because there is no GL. It’s ridiculously stupid to see the grenade exploding right in front of the enemy with hardly doing any damage. Especially in a game that tries a somewhat realistic approach.

(organon) #43

Yes, grenades that don’t kill pretty often lead to the strange situation that you are by far the one who has dealt the most damage, but you have zero kills. Playing for stats isn’t my thing, but it definitely shows you that there is something wrong is something like that happens regularly. And since I usually only play with shotgun, this is even more pronounced, you won’t believe how many times you shoot someone with over 90 dmg with the shotgun in CS without them dying. Usually you are dead then, or more commonly, someone who sprays kills him with one lucky hit. And when you actually kill more than 2 in a row with one shot each, the complaining and accusing starts.

(tokamak) #44

It’s really easy, if you want to get a huge kill-streak, then the grenade launcher should simply not be your weapon of choice. A grenade launcher should be a weapon to control situations with, to make your enemies move (clearing rooms without actually killing people) and to break through impasses with.

(Floris) #45

And why should it be like that? If someone has the skill to plant a rocket right under the feet of a fast moving player (BRINK’s athletic body type for example), I would say the shooter deserves to get the kill. As for the medium body type, I would presume a direct hit would mean the shooter has proven he deserves to get the kill. In my perfect world the only bodytype which can not be killed in one shot by a well placed riflegrenade would be the heavy.

(tokamak) #46

Following that logic all guns should be one hit kills.

Mind you that grenade launchers vary allot in different games. You’re probably having a slow firing GL (ET, COD) in your mind while I’m talking about a rapid firing grenade launcher (TF2, Crysis).

Sure, if you only get one shot and then need to slowly reload your rifle then that one shot needs to be powerful enough to kill somebody. This however, leads to the dreaded ‘noobtube’, where the encounters become highly random and where little interaction between two opponents takes place. After all, the combat is decided on only one single shot. You hit; you win, you miss; you’re dead.

In my idea the grenade launcher should be a crowd-control weapon. Shoot grenades at spots where you don’t want enemies to be. Make them run away from your nades or die. If you want to kill people you should simply take an ordinary gun. This doesn’t mean the grenade launcher should be non-lethal. It just means that the grenade launcher needs to excel in something most rifles cannot; clearing the enemy out of strong positions.

(Floris) #47

[QUOTE=tokamak;201052]Following that logic all guns should be one hit kills.

Mind you that grenade launchers vary allot in different games. You’re probably having a slow firing GL (ET, COD) in your mind while I’m talking about a rapid firing grenade launcher (TF2, Crysis).

Sure, if you only get one shot and then need to slowly reload your rifle then that one shot needs to be powerful enough to kill somebody. This however, leads to the dreaded ‘noobtube’, where the encounters become highly random and where little interaction between two opponents takes place. After all, the combat is decided on only one single shot. You hit; you win, you miss; you’re dead.

In my idea the grenade launcher should be a crowd-control weapon. Shoot grenades at spots where you don’t want enemies to be. Make them run away from your nades or die. If you want to kill people you should simply take an ordinary gun. This doesn’t mean the grenade launcher should be non-lethal. It just means that the grenade launcher needs to excel in something most rifles cannot; clearing the enemy out of strong positions.[/QUOTE]

I’m a fan of the slow firing grenade launcher yes.

Biggest difference between regular guns and riflegrenades is probably that regular guns are hitscan, you hit what you aim for, and just that. With (my prefered version of) grenade launchers you are required to predict the enemy movement, but have different styles of aiming. You could want to kill one person, meaning you would target your grenade at him or take use of walls to bounce it against him, and perhaps fire some additional bullets into his head (in case he is of a heavy body type). Or you could want to hurt a group of enemies, meaning you’ll need to make a quick guess which players you want to damage most and make your riflegrenade land closest to them. The last situation would work great with your suggested grenade launcher, which has the additional advantage that you can even target two groups at once (by cleverly using a wall to split your batch of grenades into multiple batches). I guess my favorite grenade launcer is simple and effective, very practical, while yours is lean and mean, very tactical. We could have both, I’d be okay with that, and Splash Damage gets to make more guns for customizing your character, hurray :slight_smile:

(darthmob) #48

[QUOTE=tokamak;201052]Sure, if you only get one shot and then need to slowly reload your rifle then that one shot needs to be powerful enough to kill somebody. This however, leads to the dreaded ‘noobtube’, where the encounters become highly random and where little interaction between two opponents takes place. After all, the combat is decided on only one single shot. You hit; you win, you miss; you’re dead.[/QUOTE]What you describe may be the case in CoD but it isn’t in ET.
The problem is that the ET style riflegrenade needs some twitch skills to be effective. I doubt it’s possible to play that way with a controller. Not that I would care but I guess that’s one of the drawbacks of multi platform games.

I like Florisjuhs idea. Have both types of GL in the game. One that is more rapid firing with relatively low damage output and explosion on contact and one with a greatly reduced firerate, more (splash-)damage and explosion on second impact.

That may satisfy the I play with extremely low sens or with a controller so the grenade must explode where I point it at as well as the I play with high sens and like the challenge of having to calculate how the grenade will bounce to hit crowd.

(tokamak) #49

Well I think that a slow firing high damage high velocity grenade comes really close to a rocket launcher this way.

So now we got three explosive weapons out of which two fulfill very similar roles and should be tied together. Maybe a rocket launcher where you can decide the velocity of the rocket/grenade could solve this.

A rapid firing, high radius, low damage launcher should also be short/medium range. You need to get up close and use corners/ceilings/windows to get the most effect.

(Ragoo) #50

In my opinion a GL with explosion on second impact (like ETQW) is nothing like a Rocket Launcher. It’s even hard to use properly I think. In 2 years of ETQW pub-playing I’ve never had a problem against GL :slight_smile:

(tokamak) #51

Don’t forget QW is being played on a different scale than Brink.

(Sssaap) #52

http://www.crossfire.nu/?x=forum&mode=item&id=24588#comment792178

Imo the difference between a RL and a GL is just that grenades can bounce off - but since i also fancy the quake GL (with it’s direct hits) I’d say have two firing modes (as I described in the link above)

Imo making it a fast shooting low-damage weapon just makes it a spam weapon with which you can’t really pic up frags on your own unless you’re about to storm a room. Just makes it overpowered imo. And totally overpowered if it also reduced accuracy…
If you just duck behind a wall again all times and can fire in 6 grenades with a big radius there simply is no point for opponents to even try to stay in that room - maybe even if it was their last resort for the team. Also weapons that deal less damage are less favored by public players since most of them play more on their own rather than trying to stick to someone who MIGHT assist you. And for the competitive part: it’d just be lame. If you reduce accuracy by hitting someone with it you keep on spamming those into chocke points, if you don’t reduce accuracy and only deal low damage you are not in a position to guard any way on your own which means: once your teammate is dead your team ends up with 2 poeple less playing.

If you make it a 1-shot weapon(just as it is in ET) you also grant that person to stay alive a little longer on its own - that’s what made up for the lack of ability to heal in ET just by not getting hit in the first place.

(Jamieson) #53

The GL from ET is probably one of my favourites. It was a decent gun if you just wanted to fire it in mormal mode and very effective if used well with a nade loaded as well.

The one from ETQW was ok the only problem was there were very few situations in which it was useful.

The ET one required more thought and strategy. Should I go engineer with the Mp40 so I can construct things and plant mines or should I go GL and kill people with that (uses energy bar which engineer needs)

The only drawback of the GL is that it lacked an ironsight which limited it to indoors other than that there was very little difference between a regular AR and an AR fitted with a GL.

What im trying to get at is make sure there a good reason to use the GL that distinguishes itself from other guns or no one will use it or it will only get used in very limited situations.

(Sssaap) #54

[QUOTE=Jamieson;201103]
The ET one required more thought and strategy. Should I go engineer with the Mp40 so I can construct things and plant mines or should I go GL and kill people with that (uses energy bar which engineer needs)

The only drawback of the GL is that it lacked an ironsight which limited it to indoors other than that there was very little difference between a regular AR and an AR fitted with a GL.[/QUOTE]

Actually choosing to play engineer with smg in ET (apart from the rifle being taken:P) is that you are much more accurate and flexible on distances and can contribute to crossfire (at least that’s why i sometimes change to it)

What would you need the Ironsight for?

(Jamieson) #55

Actually choosing to play engineer with smg in ET (apart from the rifle being taken:P) is that you are much more accurate and flexible on distances and can contribute to crossfire (at least that’s why i sometimes change to it)

What would you need the Ironsight for?

I agree but my point is that choosing the GL required alot of thought. If you wanted to just do objectives and plant mines construct stuff you were probably better off with an mp40 because using the mp40 doesn’t use your energy bar. If you just wanted to use the GL in CQC then it didn’t matter about the energy bar because your main priority was killing and not constructing objectives or planting mines which require energy.

In Vanilla ETQW the spread was terrible anything between medium and long range without the ironsight and the spread was terrible hence why no one used the GL other than in CQC like last obj on salvage/area 22. In promod there was no spread but upgrades were rarely used due to the lack of persistant xp due to Stopwatch also considering most things had limitations anyway.

(tokamak) #56

[QUOTE=Sssaap;201102]http://www.crossfire.nu/?x=forum&mode=item&id=24588#comment792178

Imo the difference between a RL and a GL is just that grenades can bounce off - but since i also fancy the quake GL (with it’s direct hits) I’d say have two firing modes (as I described in the link above)

Imo making it a fast shooting low-damage weapon just makes it a spam weapon with which you can’t really pic up frags on your own unless you’re about to storm a room. Just makes it overpowered imo. And totally overpowered if it also reduced accuracy…
If you just duck behind a wall again all times and can fire in 6 grenades with a big radius there simply is no point for opponents to even try to stay in that room - maybe even if it was their last resort for the team. Also weapons that deal less damage are less favored by public players since most of them play more on their own rather than trying to stick to someone who MIGHT assist you. And for the competitive part: it’d just be lame. If you reduce accuracy by hitting someone with it you keep on spamming those into chocke points, if you don’t reduce accuracy and only deal low damage you are not in a position to guard any way on your own which means: once your teammate is dead your team ends up with 2 poeple less playing.

If you make it a 1-shot weapon(just as it is in ET) you also grant that person to stay alive a little longer on its own - that’s what made up for the lack of ability to heal in ET just by not getting hit in the first place.[/QUOTE]

I like the idea that you’re punished for playing around on your own, it encourages players to stick together and be assets to the group.

Your arguments are basically that it’s too powerful and that it’s too weak and also that it’s too powerful and too weak. Similarly the smoke grenade is also overpowered because you can obstruct the views of players, but very weak because you can score any frags with it.

I’m glad you understand the way I intend the grenade launcher to be, it’s there to force the opponent’s hand, not to score easy frags.

(Shiv) #57

I would just get the whole team to go gl then…

what 1 cant do 8 surely can…
6*8 = massive area covered… likely kills… not much you can do in retaliation as its just spamming the corners so you cant get direct site line.
sounds like tf2…

or we can go with tons of nasty kill stealing issues… or maybe someone on the team doesnt quite kill the enemy so the gl launches a few goodies into the hole… voila… a kill.

(Sssaap) #58

[QUOTE=tokamak;201121]I like the idea that you’re punished for playing around on your own, it encourages players to stick together and be assets to the group.

Your arguments are basically that it’s too powerful and that it’s too weak and also that it’s too powerful and too weak. Similarly the smoke grenade is also overpowered because you can obstruct the views of players, but very weak because you can score any frags with it.[/QUOTE]

What I tried to say is that if you make it cover a big area and let it have a high rate of fire this will only result in massive spam without anyone facing each other. But if you let it have a low rate of fire high damage and avarge area covered it isn’t spammy after all.
You’re arguing with it being a lame one-shot weapon but your argument for it being a spammy weapon is that it is then supposed to be a team orientated weapon. Well, if you have a low rate of fire you won’t be able to pick up entire teams with it but weaken to opponents team, so that one works perfectly for my suggestion aswell.

Just to make sure you got the point about it being a weak weapon - if you have a really weak weapon - as long as you are on your own the chances of someone playing it are very low in my opinion, since most public players can’t be arsed to die a thousand times after having died once and being cut off from the others.
That’s just the same with the flamethrower in ET - about noone uses it anymore since you can’t pick up any frags with it - you can do a hell lot of damage with it IF you’re in the right position and have one keeping you alive, but lets face it, there are very few playing on publics to dispense medic packs ONLY.

Anyway IF you’d take a low rate of fire into consideration you could aswell give the crossfire link a shot and let me know what you think about the damage model i tried to make up. Sure it can be flawed - it’s just a first thought, so what would you change in it.

(tokamak) #59

[QUOTE=Shiv;201129]I would just get the whole team to go gl then…

what 1 cant do 8 surely can…
6*8 = massive area covered… likely kills… not much you can do in retaliation as its just spamming the corners so you cant get direct site line.
sounds like tf2…

or we can go with tons of nasty kill stealing issues… or maybe someone on the team doesnt quite kill the enemy so the gl launches a few goodies into the hole… voila… a kill.[/QUOTE]

Valid point. But easily solvable by simply giving the grenades a longer delay time.

A low rate of fire, low radius and low damage just makes it the noob-rifle we don’t want to have. It’s boring and not even that much different from a garand simply firing a big slug into someone.

(Sssaap) #60

[QUOTE=tokamak;201136]Valid point. But easily solvable by simply giving the grenades a longer delay time.

A low rate of fire, low radius and low damage just makes it the noob-rifle we don’t want to have. It’s boring and not even that much different from a garand simply firing a big slug into someone.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm a weapon with low rate of fire low damage and small area covered doesn’t sound that noobish to me. Sounds more like it takes a hell of skillness to do anything useful with it^^
Sounds as good as a peashooter:D