New video with "Freedom of Movement"

(Ragoo) #41

[QUOTE=.Chris.;218155]Yeah and no, fix hit detection while jumping first, really hate it when you get some idiots in ET:QW jumping around in fire fights making them hard to hit, not because I cant track their movement but because of unregistered hits on them. You just end up with firefights that resemble fighting scenes from team america:
[/QUOTE]

Completely agree, bad hit detection is awful in those firefights (even though I have to admit that I always jumped around like crazy in ET:QW : D)

tokamak I don’t really understand why aiming is easy while jumping around? Please explain.

Less spread = less luck = more aiming+movement skills needed

Imho you want the least uncontrollable spread possible. I understand that some spread while jumping/using SMART/sliding will be necessary but my opinion is that it shouldn’t be too much so you can still aim and it doesn’t get random.

(darthmob) #42

Honestly, the jumping around in ETQW firefights was just stupid! It looks awful in fragmovies as well. I do much prefer the way it works in Q3 / ET. Good dodging and persistant aim wins a firefight, jumping around just gets you killed.

(Apoc) #43

[quote=tokamak;218172]Yes, I’m talking about spread increase as well. Having low spread no matter what you do equals having an easy time aiming. If you have low spread no matter what you do, then it only makes sense to be constantly running and jumping around as that means you’ve got best of both worlds. Instead of having a whole ranges of ways to approach a fight, there’s only one right one which degrades the tactical gameplay.
[/quote]

It is harder to aim when you are jumping than when you are standing still, if your spread remains the same you will not do as much damage as you cant be as precise, if the spread got bigger like you say it actually is an advantage for the jumper as they dont have to be as precise and only need to aim in the general direction.

(Senethro) #44

Oh come on Apoc thats demonstrably false. Large spread is never an advantage unless you’ve got a gun firing 1000rpm and 1 hit kills.

(Qhullu) #45

yea jumping (and in brinks case i guess sliding) around mid fight causes you to be 100% predictable for the duration so it isn’t really an issue at least in the games i play (bad hitreg of course changes that). for example in et, jumping mid fight only makes sense if it seems like you’re loosing and you want to get behind cover faster ( or you want to make your corpse more easily revivable :wink: ), sometimes jumping into a well defended room works too because you don’t make sound mid air and the enemy doesn’t see where you jumped from so judging where you land isn’t as easy, but that one is all about timing and the situation inside the room. of course in et the mid air spread grows horribly fast so you’re better off just not shooting while in the air, start as soon as you land. but even though i don’t really play much q3/ql, from what i’ve seen/played, having zero spread mid air doesn’t seem to change things at all, jumping around only works against people with bad aim.

watching the video again, what bothers me more than the slow movement speed giving everyone ridiculously high accuracy stats if the guns aren’t crappy ( in the worst case scenario(pc speed=console speed) it should be easily moddable unless SD codes the movement stuff in some stupid way making changing the speed/range of the moves/movement impossible ). is that since realistic looking animations are very important to them and since the smart button is context sensitive, you need to be facing the obstacle even if you do the moves manually, that for example you can’t vault over the rail near the end of the clip while moving backwards, making the whole smart system needlessly cumbersome to use mid fight since you’d need to do a sort of a rocketjump flick to vault over it. i hope they allow sliding backwards, vaults backwards, wall jumps backwards and climbing sideways.

(Apoc) #46

Ahhh this discussion could go forever, all depending on context, obviously if the spread is considerably larger then it is a massive disadvantage, however if it is only slightly more then it could be considered an advantage in that situation where you are less accurate than normal. But yea, i know what you mean and i agree with it, im just trying to word an argument for keeping spread small while jumping when the counter arguement is that small spread when jumping means that you kill everyone easily while being hard to hit.

(Zarlor) #47

I think the overall speed could be upped just a tad, but it’s really the pulling up onto a ledge which needs to be much faster. I can just see getting shot in the back every time otherwise. Strafe jumping has its place, but if it’s not in Brink it won’t break my heart. It was always an exploit of the game engine that it worked anyway. In ETQW everyone was strafe jumping around like rabbits and looking funny while doing it. Seems like it was used more for strafe jumping when cornering in other Quake games? That’s more reasonable.

(murka) #48

Rampjumps seem possible tho…

(AnthonyDa) #49

Video could be slow to show the details of the (slow)animations, would be nice if SD could give us some pm_cvar so we can see how slow is it ^^

(DarkangelUK) #50

I think we’re verging on the realism in games argument. The point of SMART was the fact that it means if you can reach something IRL, then you should be able to reach it in the game. So is it true to form if you can pull yourself up a ledge as if you weigh 20lb? It’s definitely faster than RL, but whether its fast enough for a game is a different matter.

(Bezzy) #51

Interesting feedback. Thanks all. We’ll see what we can do about tweaking mantle speeds.

The intent is for upward ones to be faster than dropping ones - if you drop into a mantle it’s typically a fingertip, last moment grab, and shouldn’t really be as fast as a mantle where you ramp up into the move - you haven’t taken it with a good setup, so it’s going to be slower. But no mantle is more than about 1.5s the last time I checked.

Bear in mind that even during a mantle (or vault, or slide) you can turn and fire - your view is never locked into a cone or anything like that. You can defend yourself. You can also break out of the mantle by pulling away from it. However, there is always going to be some implicit trade off between moving and shooting, but we’ve worked hard to mitigate this so that the SMART system doesn’t feel like it’s getting in the way of the combat.

As pointed out this is pre-Alpha code we are showing, so it wont be without little bugs (some of which have already been fixed). The play through is, indeed, done on a joy pad. Since recording this we’ve also improved the hands/surfaces lining up a bit.

The video doesn’t show every move, so there’s a few more useful combinations for you to discover.

Head bobbing can indeed be turned off, even on console.

(H0RSE) #52

Why would they make a video to show a slower speed than what they want in retail?
why would they make a video with a half assed blur effect, or a vid without all the HUD elements? Why did they show a vid with boosted weapon damage or a customization vid with a shoddy menu system? I guess all the things they show or don’t show will be in the final version…So to answer your question, Why would they make a video to show a slower speed than what they want in retail? To give us a progress report…to show us what they are working and/or how things are coming along in the game. To think that anything they release this early in development is ‘final version’ material, is just being naive.

First your arguments were:
“no this isnt slow, the vids arent gameplay vids so you cant tell” (while we actually can already tell when you played fps for more than 10 years…)
What are you talking about? What “first” argument?

and now that a gameplay vids show a slow paced game you are telling us that the video cant be considered cuz its not the retail… let me lol a bit.
The vid is over 6 months from old from around release date time (probably alpha footage), and we also don’t know what body type this is showing…let me lol a bit while you get mad and critique it like it’s the final product.

(Bezzy) #53

Not indefinitely. There are diminishing returns on the height of consecutive wall jumps (reset when you hit the floor again). This ensures that you can’t break out of the level, but means we don’t “turn off” wall jumps after the first one. Jump always means jump.

“Reflecting” away from the wall gets you slightly higher than wall jumping into the wall… so you can use this to your advantage to make mantles faster in some cases.

(Apples) #54

The actual coolness of this vid would have been to run it faster than the retail already, to get the hype up etc cuz ya know, parkour high speed is funnier than grandma style…

What I was mostly pointing out is that each of your post is fanboi’ish attitude, resume all the posts by “bitch,bitch,bitch” isnt showing some open minded thinking… The vid is slow, to me the game will be slow, and I say it, as I said if we only can judge a product’s retail and in now way participate in its development i dont see the point of a forum…

The argument consisting at “its an old vid, it doesnt show anything” weirdly is only in your mouth when we criticise the vid, when we are all happy about the video, its prolly because its THE retail finished product yeah?

To finish on a happier note, replace the MW2 word by “Brink” in your signature, you’ll get what i’m thinking nowadays.

Peace

(H0RSE) #55

What I was mostly pointing out is that each of your post is fanboi’ish attitude, resume all the posts by “bitch,bitch,bitch” isnt showing some open minded thinking…
I don’t mind peoples opinions on the vid, but when you guys gangbang it, and attack it like it’s a final product, rather than being civil and approaching it like a work in progress, then yeah, all I see is a bunch of kids moaning because their mom bought them the blue toy instead of the red toy.

The “bitch, bitch, bitch,” comment also came along due to a buildup of other complaints on this board:

the dedicated nade button
no weaponbanks
default off voicechat
specific location planting
no body type swapping
etc.

it’s like every time they release new info, you guys have a 20 page debate about how much it sucks, and see nothing positive about the changes. And it’s not so much that you guys disagree with it, it’s te degree of which you disagree with it, like a kid blasting rap music and walking past an old man sitting on his porch. “That’s not music! THIS is music! how can you listen to that crap! When I was your age…” but somehow I’m the close minded one… I’m embracing the changes…I’m all for a dedicated nade button, for specific plant locations, stricter rules on body swapping, etc. I’m all for seeing how these new things play out, and I played a shitload of RTCW, W:ET and QW, so it’s not like I’m not used to they system already in place.

Basically, I put myself in the devs shoes - like what if I was making Brink and collaborating with my colleagues,“Hey! let’s put this in! that would be awesome!” and then they release their ideas on the forum, and the response is “that sucks.” …I’d be pissed off, especially with all the fresh air and innovation they are trying to breathe into the genre with this game. Let’s look at the stats:

Brink is a new IP
it’s still at least half a year away from launch and could even be pushed further back.
the SMART system is a new concept
The body type system, XP and skill system is not common in FPS games.
the dedicated nade button is not new and works in other games
same thing for specific planting

It seems like you guys treat Brink like all the things it’s trying to offer have been done 1000 times before, and Brink’s version just sucks. It’s like you pretty much wanna strip out everything that makes it Brink, and just make ET2 or QW2 instead.

(Jamieson) #56

[QUOTE=H0RSE;218274]The “bitch, bitch, bitch,” comment also came along due to a buildup of other complaints on this board:

the dedicated nade button
no weaponbanks
default off voicechat
specific location planting
no body type swapping
etc.

iIt seems like you guys treat Brink like all the things it’s trying to offer have been done 1000 times before, and Brink’s version just sucks. It’s like you pretty much wanna strip out everything that makes it Brink, and just make ET2 or QW2 instead.[/QUOTE]

First Horse I think you need to sit back and look at yourself for once instead of casting judegement on everybody else. Every single discussion I have had with you or watched you have with others has resulted in you not accepting that people have different views and that if they are different to your own then they are obviously wrong.

The issues people have raised such as no dedicated nade button or preselecting for objectives or voice chat defualt to off are all very serious issues, I have been gaming for along time now over 11years (others on here longer) We can’t all be wrong you know. PC gamers have been treated like shit recently and we want SD to make a good game because everything else is crap so yes we have a right to complain and we have a right to be suspcious. It was the same with wolfenstein (not sayign brink will be, just giving example) All we heard was “yes we are listening” “We care aboutt he community” “yes the game is going to be great” turned out to be crap. So forgive me for being abit cynical.

Now get off your high horse. One thing i hate is when you get one person trying to act superior than the rest and say you guys are all bitchin etc… No need for it.

(H0RSE) #57

Every single discussion I have had with you or watched you have with others has resulted in you not accepting that people have different views and that if they are different to your own then they are obviously wrong.
I’ve been in plenty of debates, in RL and on the internet, where someone would make a point I saw as valid…it would be a different point of view than mine, but it would be valid…this scenario really hasn’t played itself out on the Brink forums. It’s not as cut and dry as I’m always right, everybody else is always wrong. It’s more like I see my point of view as right, and if you’re just going to try and beat it in my head that I’m not right, you’re not going to get very far. Chances are, you’re not going to make me see your point of view - I mean, that’s the basis of the argument…I’m disagreeing with you. Your best bet is to try and show me a different perspective, that isn’t your original point of view and isn’t mine. Throw me a curveball or approach it from a different angle and then go from there. Perhaps you should know, in RL I have a very ‘black and white’ personality - people either love me or hate me, there’s no gray area.

The issues people have raised such as no dedicated nade button or preselecting for objectives or voice chat defualt to off are all very serious issues,
dedicated nade buttons have already proved to work perfectly fine in other games and preselecting for objectives (i’m assuming this is the specific planting mechanic) also has proved itself in other games.

Default off voice chat a serious issue? Are you kidding me?! Maybe REMOVING voice chat could be considered serious, but even then, you could use a third party program like Vent or TS. (which a lot of players do) If it’s defaulted to off…turn it on…problem solved. You can turn you PC on and off and flick a light switch…it’s the same basic concept. I don’t think these issues are nearly as serious as you guys make them out to be.

(Jamieson) #58

Not going to get you to change your opinion on the issue so no point really already a lost cause…

True it has worked in other games but this will be the first time it is used in a SD game. The point is that we have never used it or needed it in the past, Now they are introducing it atleast let us keep the old option, you already know this isn’t going to happen so lets not beat a dead horse no pun intended :smiley:

It is a serious issue, well on the PC anyway, I would be greatly in favour of voicechat defualt to off on console. on the PC however i’am not. Its hard enough to get people to communciate with one another as it is on the PC without further restricting it so thats what my concern is. I know you can turn it on but most people don’t change the defualt settings alot, so in most cases it will most likely stay off. TS or Vent don’t fix this as the problem is gettign public not clan players to talk to one another and work as a team.

(H0RSE) #59

It is a serious issue, well on the PC anyway, I would be greatly in favour of voicechat defualt to off on console. on the PC however i’am not. Its hard enough to get people to communciate with one another as it is on the PC without further restricting it so thats what my concern is. I know you can turn it on but most people don’t change the defualt settings alot, so in most cases it will most likely stay off. TS or Vent don’t fix this as the problem is gettign public not clan players to talk to one another and work as a team.

If it’s already hard enough to get people to talk when it’s on, then it really wouldn’t matter either way. I mean, if voice chat was booming on the PC, people would be enabling it regardless. I really don’t think the issue is with having it to on or off by default, I think it’s more with people not having mics or just not wanting to talk. They could easily have it set to off by default, and have tipboxes or whatever popup in the menu or on the hud in-game telling you that voice chat is off, do you want to enable it, or go here to enable it.

(BioSnark) #60

^ Hasn’t that been discussed elsewhere? There are valid arguments for both sides. Lets not rehash, here.

Wolfenstein mp would have been RTCW with shiny graphics if the existing fanbase had gotten their way. Just another CoD-like series following its own footsteps. Now what it turned out to be was certainly no better… an abomination of half of what RTCW was mixed with some half-baked additions and innovations. Neither outcome could have surpassed the original or brought anything new to the table.

My point is, the current fanbase already knows what it has enjoyed in the past and will always be vocally pessimistic about any changes to that formula. Small developers (SD ;]), like any small business, are in the best position to innovate because there’s a whole lot bigger slice of pie they might be able to reach if they loosen their grip on what little they already have.

I’m not a great fan of killing sniper power, having voip off by default, etc. but I am a fan of risky innovation and think fan bases should be a little less possessive about the formulas they love and a little more willing to try something different and possibly fail.