New here, with some questions and comments about Fuel Dump


(TAngelo) #1

Hi folks, I’ve been lurking for a while now, reading messages and threads here and there while enjoying Enemy Territory itself. Not being much of a multiplayer fan myself I gave it a try when it was first out, not expecting to be taken in but curious nonetheless, and I’ve to say I immediately fell in love with it. I’ve been playing regularly ever since, seeing the amount of players grow from about two million to almost 70 million right now. Anyway, I guess it’s safe to say I’m enjoying the game, and I find myself coming back to it time and again. I suppose it’s the teamplay element that gets to me, and the gameplay experience which is different practically every time.
I don’t suppose I’ll eventually post all that much or become a regular visitor, but at this point I did want to register somewhere in an ET community and put in a few questions and comments about something which is becoming an issue for me when playing. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) it’s not something with the game itself but rather with the way it’s played.

What I’m talking about is the Fuel Dump map, which is without a doubt my personal favorite in ET, but which at the same time seems to offer me more and more frustration when I play it. For me it’s kind of the highpoint of ET, often the last map I’ll play before finally signing off, but more often than not it turns into the lowpoint of the game instead. Strangely enough changing servers and playing with different teams doesn’t seem to help much as very often I’ll just run into the same problem. To be more specific, it’s the roof door inside the axis garage – or rather the fact that people don’t seem to know about it. I don’t know about others, but for me it’s been weeks since I last saw the allied team break through the side fences, plant the dynamite that way and win the game. The easiest and most logical way to go once the side wall is breached, imo, is to just get an engineer and a cvops into the main building, go over the roof and jump onto the fuel pumps, and plant. The axis team (as you might have guessed at this point I tend to play allied ;)) doesn’t even know you’re in there until the message ‘dynamite planted’ appears, and at that time it’s generally already too late – especially since an engineer with a high XP can plant multiple charges fairly quickly and the side fences which will still be in place will prevent any axis from going right in and defusing. In my experience it’s pretty much a guaranteed win when a covert ops and engineer make it over the roof. The hardest part of course is getting to the roof door as an engineer in the first place, preferably without being seen.

To get right to the point, my gripe with Fuel Dump, or rather the way it’s played, is that even experienced players (judging by their XP) often don’t seem to know about the roof door and will apparently insist on trying to go through the side fences, which (again, in my experience as of late) is a sure way to lose the map. The reason this has become so frustrating for me is because I generally play as an engineer myself there and make it my priority to get inside the garage and then call for a covert ops.
Mostly it’s at this point that things go wrong. I wouldn’t have posted about this if it concerned a minor or common problem, like new players not yet knowing the objectives or encountering only an occasional lack of teamwork between players, but this has slowly become a persistent problem with this map for me over the past weeks and finally I feel the need to put in a few words about it as in the end it’s turning what should be good gameplay into evenings of frustration.

What it comes down to is that I feel getting an engineer inside should be the first concern of the allied team once the tank has run its course, and that one making it into the building should be the sign for cvops to try and get there as well. I guess I can be pretty short about the pros and cons, in my view, of going through the roof door or the side fences: the roof door is safe as there can be no mines in your path, there is no structure to destroy first which will automatically announce your presence there, subsequently the dynamite charge(s) can be planted right away without delay, and, as I mentioned above, the enemy not only doesn’t know you’re there until it’s too late but also doesn’t have a direct path to the planted charge(s). The position, after planting and with both fences still in place, is also easier to defend even by a single person. The only con that I can see is that it can be hard to get inside the main building undetected for an engineer, who of course can’t disguise himself.
When it comes to going through the side fences however, I can see only cons all the way through – the axis team knows you’re there once you destroy one of the fences, destroying them in the first place means having to either wait and defend dynamite or, if done with a cvops satchel, to time it with the arrival of engineers, the axis team has a clear path to get to you so the position is nearly impossible to hold, they also have a clear path to the dynamite so they can defuse immediately, the side fences can be rebuilt quickly and easily, and mostly not only the area just outside is mined but the area just behind the fences as well. If there are really any positive sides to this method I’ve to say I don’t see them; the only way for the allies to possibly pull this off is if they’re greatly superior to the other team and can actually hold the axis base even though they’re about a mile away from their spawnpoint and the axis spawn is right there. Still, what a game of Fuel Dump has mostly come down to for me in the past few weeks is that after finally making it inside and calling for cvops to try and get there as well, the team chat either remains silent and nobody responds, or, if there is a response, I notice that people either don’t know about the roof door or know about it and still insist that destroying the side fences is the only way to go. The worst part is when I notice people trying to destroy the left fence, the one that looks out right on the axis spawn exit.

I know this can be attributed to new players who don’t know the ropes yet, but strangely enough I see this kind of stuff from players who obviously have more experience and who know the maps. The weird part is that over the course of about two months now I find I’ve seen the allied team win Fuel Dump only a handful of times (mostly through an engineer and cvops going through the tunnel grate in the beginning of the game), and in the end what the map usually means for me is that I sit inside the axis garage for minutes on end using the teamchat to try and communicate with a team where people either do not respond or don’t even want to try to get a covert ops in disguise in there. In truth I’d been thinking of asking about this issue in an ET community before, but either I didn’t get around to it or I dismissed the idea thinking things would change in the long run. A game I played today finally drove me to this attempt at opening a discussion about it though (did a board search for similar subjects first of course but didn’t find any) – a game wherein with tons of luck I made it to the roof door five times in the course of about a quarter of an hour, and wherein I got killed every time after leaving my position to help out whenever the side fences had been destroyed. The team ignored any request for cvops to the roof door and insisted dynamite be planted at the side fences. The allies lost, and as this was not the third or fourth but I think closer to the 20th time I’d played Fuel Dump this way I at last decided it was time I tried to get some opinions on the map from other ET players.
Since this is the first time I’m really talking to other fans of the game (outside the chat window after every map I guess) I’m interested to know how you like to play the map, what your views are on how to win it, etc… Like I said, fuel dump is my favorite part of the game, and I’d like to see it stay that way and not let it become the point where I disconnect from the server.

Sorry for the long post, and congrats I guess for those who made it this far :wink:


(Ragnar_40k) #2

This post is toooooo loooooooooooong. :wink:


(ETplayer) #3

:moo:


(Vengeance) #4

I understand what your saying and the truth is unless your on a server with a lot of regular people, im afraid there gonna keep planting at the gates, Iv noticed on a lot of servers that a lot of ppl ignore teamchat and go about doing there own thing.

The tactic of going through the roof door is a very good 1 and i do agree it is underused a lot of the time. I mainly plant at the gate myself since a lot of covert op players tend to be loose cannons and with good support and a bit of luck planting at the gate pays off. Obviously if there is a good ops who made it in the garage I will try to get there as fast as possible.

My advice is try and find a server where ppl actually use and listen to teamchat and stick with it. Also the game improves vastly both funwise and tactically when your on a server were u know most of the ppl on it.


(Spark) #5

Well, I didn’t realize it either… Just today a covert op opened the roof door for me and I realized my stupidity (was expecting him to satchel the fortifications and watch for mines). But only after reading your post, I realized that this might be a good idea even the tank has breached the main gate.
People probably don’t realize this because in matches FuelDump isn’t played that much yet and on publics, Allies spend most of their time outside the base. :slight_smile:

In a Match however, I would argue that it might be a better idea to satchel charge or dynamite the fortifications instead.
First of all, using a Covert Ops is a risk. Getting a uniform is even more of a risk (a good team will stay together and not go far outside the base). Then in most cases, some Axis engineer will be on the roof. That’s a great location to help shooting at intruders and be right there to defuse the dynamite. It’s also a great location to make your plan worthless. :slight_smile: Of course you can try to kill this engineer first, but it will not be easy.
Just breaching the fortifications would be much faster and simpler, especially if the entire team is helping.
Your plan probably is superior in most cases on publics, when there isn’t much chance to get into the base with more than one or two players at once.
Maybe this strategie will become more common knowledge over time (especially if Fuel Dump gets used more often in matches, so players get really accustomed to it).


(damocles) #6

I think the main problem is not so much that good players don’t use the door, as much as good players realise the opposition are good players and are watching for you on the rooftops.

I used to play cvops a lot and would only get to the rooftop alive in about 20% of attempts. I almost always run into someone in the building or get followed in then shot. Or meet resistance on the rooftop itself. I found though that if you move as a small group through the sidewall you can get through the fortifactions, your engie teammate can plant and you can both defend it from secure, hidden positions without much hassle.

Basically, running straight to the rooftop pretty much gives you away as a covert ops (especially if you have an engie in tow). It’s only worth chancing it if you’re alone, then it’d easier to fake being the axis and get onto the rooftop with minimal resistance. Once up there you can blow the west defences for any engies you see coming.


(Pamper) #7

That’s the easy part. If you think your teammates are slacking off, why don’t you try the other half of the job and see how easy it is!

The correct order is for a disguised covert ops to go inside, and then call for an engineer. (The regular procedure is to hide behind the truck while waiting)
Getting a uniform without being shot is HARD. And then once you have it, any non-idiotic Axis defenders will not be fooled by the disguise and will make the covert a priority target. And it’s not like he can shoot back to defend himself!

I hate it when engineers wait next to a door, and start typing away and complaining “Why don’t you stupid, lazy coverts come let me in???”, as if he’s made some kind of big achievement by reaching the door.


(TAngelo) #8

“Iv noticed on a lot of servers that a lot of ppl ignore teamchat and go about doing there own thing”

Yeah, that’s my observation too. Generally I don’t find myself using teamchat too often unless a certain map (like Fuel Dump) really takes coordination to win and I want to try and join others in their efforts or suggest something myself. On Fuel Dump though I often notice that by the time the timer’s ticking down the last minute or two I’ve started using caps in an attempt to get someone’s attention.
I also imagine playing on servers where you know people improves the game experience, even though I’ve only had a taste of that myself at times when I see a familiar name or two and by using teamchat things seem to run a whole lot smoother.

I’ve seen people mentioning publics or pubs here and there, I assume in contrast with clan servers or private, password protected places. I admit I only have experience with public servers, which are probably pretty messy in general as opposed to more organized matches where people can discuss strategies beforehand and don’t mess them up by teamkilling or taking out a whole (friendly) minefield by themselves and then having the audacity to file complaint :wink: It’s indeed rare on a public server to see more than a few allies inside the axis base, that’s for sure. I think that maybe with good teamwork (such as gathering outside the wall breach to the right and going in together), getting a foothold inside the base wouldn’t be impossible.

“That’s the easy part. If you think your teammates are slacking off, why don’t you try the other half of the job and see how easy it is”

Never tried that on Fueldump before I think, though I do go cvops here and there when necessity calls for it, mainly at Radar, Battery and Goldrush. At Radar I think it’s an invaluable class for spotting the ever-present mines at the radar sites and for moving behind enemy lines. My favorite gimmick is to make off with the West parts by moving behind enemy lines and bringing them all the way along the back of the map, back through the side entrance and so to the truck :smiley: . Doesn’t always work, but most of the time when the east parts have already been stolen and the fighting is hardest at the front entrance it’s pretty easy to get a uniform there, going through the side entrance and all the way behind the axis spawnpoint, picking them up, and then hauling them all the way back while the Axis are waiting for you in vain at the front entrance where logic would suggest the carrier will want to pass through. At Goldrush it’s cool to scout out the bank when breached but I imagine moving among the axis in there is something which only works on public servers with more unexperienced players present. Even then you’re quickly found out and most of the time it only works once.
However I still don’t believe that at fueldump a cvops would have it any harder to get inside than an engineer. If an engineer or any other class that can’t disguise itself can make it then a cvops in uniform should certainly be able to make it too in my view.


(Pamper) #9

An engineer has a gun, so he can kill Nazis himself on the way in. (He’s also got 15 grenades, and maybe even a flak vest) A covert CANNOT SHOOT if he wants to be able to open the door. Who has the easier time?

Try it and see. Disguise doesn’t help you get inside at all… only doors and newbies get fooled by a disguise. Wearing disguise actually makes enemies MORE eager to kill you. An Axis running the wrong way into the fueldump looks VERY suspicious. And you can be sure the guy you knifed for those pants will be hunting for you on the roof soon as he respawns. (He’ll probably V18 V18 to send more defenders there too.)


(kurosawa Ai) #10

If you make it inside, you can try to hide in the little office on the second floor (it’s at the top of the stairwell), wait for an Axis to go through the teamdoor, and zip in behind him before it closes. This way you don’t have to depend on your covopses (who are all usually lying atop Sniper Hill plinking away in any case).


(TAngelo) #11

I know, I do see your point (I’ll also try to go cvops at fueldump more from now on, and call for engineers instead of the other way around), and certainly cvops will have a hard time fooling experienced players, but a lot of it is in how you play. From what I’ve seen of cvops players up till now there are guys out there who are very, very good at being one and know how to properly use the class. From my own limited experience at being one and mainly from watching others I think the first thing a lot of people do wrong is as you say knifing enemies for their pants. That’s a big mistake since the enemy player whose last visual impression before he was sent to limbo was of the cvops in question bent over him will automatically notify his team of an enemy in disguise and will often go on the lookout himself for the guy who took his uniform. It’s also important not to act like a cvops, meaning not to blatantly run ‘the wrong way’ so to speak into a stream of enemies but just to try and be part of the crowd. The main thing is to be clever in the use of the cvops; if there’s one thing I’ve learnt at least it’s that the covert ops class requires a lot of subtlety and that the mistake a lot of players make is thinking that the disguise will allow them to move around the enemy with little or no problem. Once they notice that this is not the case a lot of them will be disappointed and abandon the class. In my opinion the disguise is only there for ‘glimpses’ – the enemy will always spot an enemy uniform in their field of vision because that’s simply what they’re on the lookout for. If there’s anything in your view that doesn’t resemble the uniforms of your own team you’re going to turn towards it, even if it was just something you saw out of the corner of your eye; the job of a cvops is to move through the corner of the eye of the other team, not to parade in their target reticles.

Getting back to the topic at hand I’m not saying it’s necessarily easy for a covert ops to get into the main building, but if any other member of the team was able to make it a cvops should be able to get there too. Going through the breach in the base wall is mandatory though, I’d say: the main entrance is far too exposed to view from all kinds of different directions, while from the wall breach the main building is only a sprint away. At any rate the reason I didn’t say anything about cvops being lazy or stupid or anything in my original post is because that’s not the issue; the trouble is that most of the time there is no response at all – I’d often be glad to have cvops at least trying to make it through.


(TAngelo) #12

“If you make it inside, you can try to hide in the little office on the second floor (it’s at the top of the stairwell), wait for an Axis to go through the teamdoor, and zip in behind him before it closes. This way you don’t have to depend on your covopses (who are all usually lying atop Sniper Hill plinking away in any case).”

Excellent technique! I believe it’s safer to hide behind the wall down below for that though; say you get in through the little front door of the building and go left, into the garage: if you hide directly behind the wall to the left you can lean from behind it and this way see when someone is coming. Since there is no animation for the models to ‘actually’ lean, the approaching enemy can’t see you, and apparently even when he climbs up the ladder there’s a dead angle which makes it so that he still can’t see you when you’re sitting down there. You can then follow him up the ladder and through the door – it’s not my trick unfortunately but something I picked up a while ago from PlanetWolfenstein I think. I tried it a few times and with pounding heart actually managed to plant and win one or two times! It’s a LOT riskier than going in with a cvops however, for various reasons: in the first place you’re going to have to deal with an enemy for sure (the one you’ve just followed in of course) so the enemy team immediately knows what you’re doing – if you succeed in taking him down at all. After that the roof door method probably won’t work anymore because they’ll be very wary now of anyone trying that again. For me it’s usually a last resort when the clock is ticking down and there are no other options, but like I said, it’s only worked once or twice out of the five or six times that I was able to try it at this point. Hiding in the office could work that way, but you’d have to lie down behind the little desk and it’d be very hard to see anyone coming – not to mention the enemy is more likely to see you. I find that there’s another good place for hiding and that’s behind the truck, though it’s not useable if you want to try and follow an axis in.


(spoon) #13

As a defender, nothing warms the cockles of my heart like sitting up on the roof, picking off allies from a distance, and hearing that door open. Not only do I derive joy from knowing that I’m about to squash they’re dreams when they’ve finally gotten so close to their goal, I’m also pleased with the fact that they probably just burned at least a minute and a half (usually a lot longer) off the clock simply trying to get into position. All for nothing.

That’s almost as satisfying as playing D on battery and seeing that there are only 2 folks even trying to build the ramp while the other 10 Allies are having a tea party at the backdoor, burning time off the clock and waiting for a CO that’s never gonna make it there alive.


(TAngelo) #14

…until you get picked off the roof by a well-aimed panzer or by the engy and cvops coming up and they do manage to plant of course :cool:
Or until, on Battery, some guys go down on the beach or out the back door; or, if the ramp is built, one or more engineers just slip in through the (empty) base and plant a massive amount of dynamite packs at the gun controls. A single engineer can plant at least five packs if his XP is high enough and a command post has been built (higher recharge speed). That’s one of my own favorite things to do as an attacker :wink:


(Rippin Kitten) #15

I usually go right for the gates when I’m attacking. The west gate is preferred, but I’ll go through the east if they have lots of guys on the other side. Nice thing about the east gate is that the axis will be coming in close knit groups. A well placed mine or panzer can wipe out a good chunk of a respawn wave. The only time I go for the door is if a covert is already there. Otherwise, I’m far more useful to my team going for the objective.

As mentioned before, good players on axis expect this and will take steps to make sure it doesn’t work. Its much easier for them to stop one covert or one engie trying to sneak into the building than it is to stop a coordinated attack by 4 or so guys rushing one side. A medic and an engie can muscle their way through the west gate. Toss in a field ops, and maybe a guy on the tank mg to provide cover, and it becomes much harder for the axis to counter.

Besides, most allied coverts are too concerned with sniping on the hill to be bothered with spotting mines, blowing gates, or sneaking engies through the roof. Just getting them to blow the side MG is a chore. I’ve given up trying to ask coverts to help us win the map. Every time I see a covert sniping on the hill I just assume we’re down one more player.

For all the advantages the roof route provides, the big downside is sitting behind the truck or desk for 15 minutes waiting/hoping for a covert. The gates are riskier, but you don’t have to rely on coverts putting down their precious sniper rifle, and any medics or field ops you bring with you will do a much better job helping you out.

This isn’t supposed to be a dig on all covert ops players out there. Still, you have to admit that for every "good’ covert op you find on a pub server there’s 20 to 30 other “bad” coverts out there.

RK


(Pamper) #16

“If you’re sitting on the hill, you’re sniping for Hitler!”


(Dawg) #17

One point that seems to have been missed in regards to the CO/engie combo getting into the depot building is that the CO does NOT have to have the uniform when he gets to the building.

As an engineer, there have been many times when I’ve been laying under that truck calling out for a CO. Invariably, the occasional axis soldier will come running in, climb the ladder and go in the door. I have managed to run up behind them a couple of times and get to the depot and plant - which is kinda amusing, but having a CO around to open that door at our leisure just makes me more comfortable. The point is, since there are axis coming through the depot building, the CO can garner the uniform there.

If the axis defense is swarming and the roof route is defended, the CO can still be of use by satcheling the side gate and allowing the engie to plant. Throwing a smoke nade can obscure the location of the dyno (assuming its in an unusual place and that can slow the axis defuse effort by a few seconds.

Dawg


(Pamper) #18

To protect dyno, I prefer to throw a satchel on it.
Then go hide under a tree waiting for the engineers to come!


(Dawg) #19

To protect dyno, I prefer to throw a satchel on it.
Then go hide under a tree waiting for the engineers to come![/quote]
True. But if you are low on health you probably aren’t going to survive to hit the switch at the right time. Its a judgement call. But the fact that you are there helping the plant means more to me as an engie.

Dawg


(damocles) #20

If the dyna is on the final objective or a very important one, then I will happily sit over the objective, nade in hand. As soon as someone opens fire on me I begin priming the nade. Those few extra seconds the engies can’t disarm is often all you need. Or even better, they don’t notice the nade fall and start disarming…