Need Weapons HELP with a new MOD

(Korollary) #21

If you think you are an expert, then maybe you can clarify this:

Was the FG42 significantly better than the MP40 and the k43 ? If it was accurate enough to be used a sniper rifle, and it could fire that fast, it sounds like it should be. Also, the regular Sten had a similar rate of fire (400 rounds/min) and was used as an SMG. The Sten MK.II had a silencer. Did it really overheat ? What was its silenced rate of fire ?

Onto another topic:
From what I understand, the German infantry carried mostly the Karabiner Mauser 93k (ca. 10 million), and the MP38/MP40 (ca. 1 million).

The mauser fired the Infanteriepatrone 7,92x57 (5 bullets per magazine, 60 rounds max per soldier) at a practical rate of 15 rounds/min. Since it was used as a sniper rifle as well, I assume it had a pretty long effective range.

The MP40 fired the 9mmx19mm Parabellum (32 bullets/magazine, 224 rounds max per soldier) at a practical rate of less than 100 rounds/min (400-500 rounds/min theoretical maz). Effective range was less than 100 yards.

Without a scope or grenade launcher, the Mauser, or its replacement k43, should suffer against an MP40 within short range, since the MP40 can fire 3 times faster with a larger magazine. Mid range, they should start becoming equal. Long range, the k43 should simply dominate, even unscoped, as the MP40 will be out of its practical range.

That’s the sort of stuff that appeared illogical to me, and that’s why I started this thread. I am still looking for people who are willing to commit a few hours a week and work as a team.

(SCDS_reyalP) #22

The FG42 used full sized rifle rounds (same as the mauser and k43), so should have similar stopping power. It would also have significant recoil, which could harm the accuracy of full auto fire.
A couple of FG42 links
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust7.htm#fg42
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2100/2161.

Silencers shouldn’t affect the ROF, however many of them are limited life items.

All the full auto weapons were subject to overheating, though obviously not in the way represented in ET. Overheating could lead to

  • operator burning himself
  • inaccuracy (barrel changes shape as it warms up)
  • jams
  • ammo cooking off.
    The sten and MP40 were both well known for jams/feed failures. FWIW, the sten was notorious for being cheaply made and inaccurate. (quite the opposite of RTCW and ET). I always assumed the the overheat behaviour of the sten was supposed to represent it’s general unreliability.
    Sten links
    http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/sten.htm
    http://www.canuck.freehosting.net/sten.htm
(Pamper) #23

I’m totally not an expert, but I can read web pages and will guess at a few things.

The FG42 was a good weapon. Its rifle rounds were individually stronger than a shot from the MP40 (which is backwards from the damage values used in RTCW-ET).
In comparison to the MP40 it was bulky and had a great kick, so full-auto fire was a waste.

used as an SMG. The Sten MK.II had a silencer. Did it really overheat ? What was its silenced rate of fire ?

Silencer doesn’t change the ROF, but may reduce the power of each shot. Also make the gun heavier and harder to aim. The Sten was a terribly unreliable gun, and could jam at any time. The overheating effect is probably an attempt to simulate that unreliability, but in a way players can predict.

The real MP40 was also sometimes unreliable, but not as bad as the Sten. Soldiers might leave one bullet out of the clips to reduce the chance of a jam.

The mauser fired the Infanteriepatrone 7,92x57 (5 bullets per magazine, 60 rounds max per soldier) at a practical rate of 15 rounds/min. Since it was used as a sniper rifle as well, I assume it had a pretty long effective range.

1000 yards or more, if you’re a great shot.

Without a scope or grenade launcher, the Mauser, or its replacement k43, should suffer against an MP40 within short range, since the MP40 can fire 3 times faster with a larger magazine.

There’s more reasons the MP40 wins at short range. It’s a smaller, shorter gun, so it’s easier to point in close quarters. A rifle has a bigger risk of getting snagged coming around a corner or something, but an SMG is hung close to your body. An SMG can also be fired halfway accurately while you yourself are running- don’t try that with a long rifle.

(Korollary) #24

In that case, it will have to be very similar to the K43 in function, i.e., you can defend yourself in close range by firing short bursts, still losing to an MP40. Mid-to-long range, you win against an MP40. To make this gun equal to the K43 will require a lot of tweaking, tho.

FWIW, the sten was notorious for being cheaply made and inaccurate. (quite the opposite of RTCW and ET). I always assumed the the overheat behaviour of the sten was supposed to represent it’s general unreliability.

Well, unreliable guns piss off people. In RTCW, you were simply penalized for having chosen that gun while you could choose the Tommy/MP40. In ET, its performance is improved, but still not equal to that of the MP40. Instead of an accurate but overheating SMG, it should be an inaccurate spraying SMG, exactly like the MP40. It shouldn’t be penalized for being silenced (it wasn’t in rl).

(Korollary) #25

That’s a good point. So while running, or turning sharply, the FG42/K43 should suffer from increased bullet spread than the MP40.

(SCDS_reyalP) #26

Right. In reality, the FG42 was an elite weapon (less than 7k or so built), and the k43 was a relativly mass issue weapon. It probably was better than almost all the standard issue weapons. As pamper points out, it should be less usable than an SMG in close combat, because it was full size weapon.

Interestingly you could also put the grenade launcher on the FG. Now that would be rude :stuck_out_tongue:

(Korollary) #27

[quote="“SCDS_reyalP”"]

Well, that almost concludes why the FG42 is a problem weapon. If you were to honor its superiority over standard issue weapons, you’d create a monster and it would get abused. If you were to ignore its strengths and make it equal to the k43 (plus the auto mode), a) it would not add any depth over what’s already provided by the k43, b) in the event that you screw the balance, it would either be underpowered or overpowered, resulting in abandon or abuse.

Another problem is that it’s given to CovOps. It doesn’t really belong to someone who bothers to carry a silenced pistol (loss of uniform, and general stealth principles). The CovOps who goes beyond enemy lines has the Sten SMG well suited for his purposes. The K43 would be a bad choice for CovOps in disguise because:

a) you have to go inside buildings and full sized weapons are difficult to handle in closed areas
b) you are easier to spot if you are holding a big k43

Sniping with the k43 or the FG42 should be left to soldiers.

(Jinks) #28

Has anyone thought about giving players the ability to pick up any weapon they find? This is something that’s always bothered me about rtcw/et however I do realize the danger of having medics pick up a panzerfaust without penalty… It should be possible to just penalize a medic for trying to use a pf (make it’s accuracy really bad)…

That’s another thing that’s always anoyed me the PF is so accurate in these games… I wouldn’t mind seing it be alot more powerfull but have the shot wind around when fired (semi accurate at medium range) but highly innacurate at long distances (say the beach on battery to the inside of FB would be a 1 in 5 shot)

(SCDS_reyalP) #29

Shrub RTCW has this as an option, without any penelty. To me, it is a prime example of ‘realism’ making shitty gameplay. Maybe if there was a significant penelty for using a non-native weapon, that would be better.

That’s another thing that’s always anoyed me the PF is so accurate in these games… I wouldn’t mind seing it be alot more powerfull but have the shot wind around when fired (semi accurate at medium range) but highly innacurate at long distances (say the beach on battery to the inside of FB would be a 1 in 5 shot)

Making it too random would just be annoying, IMO. You could give it an arc (like the rifle nades) and maybe sway like the sniper rifles.

(Jinks) #30

Actually I’m talking to kor right now Do you have IRC? you should come find us and get on ventrilo.

About the SHRUB thing I’ve played that to and that’s totally out of the question (I used to be a medic and pray to find a panzer or venom =))

Re: pf being random I was re-thinking that with kor, seems how about put some more skill into making long distance pf shots (i.e. perhaps have the panzer dip after a certain distance so you’d have to overshoot your target and really know what your doing to get a hit from extreme long range)

Oops i see you came to the same conclusion now about the pf arc… lol (I didn’t read that the first time I’m bad for that =x)

(Korollary) #31

Well, we gathered enough people to start on our concept phase of the MOD. So we are moving this discussion away from these forums. If you are interested, you can still contact me via the methods I described in the first post. Thanks for your time.

(Lango) #32

Sorry that i havent been on in a while. First off Englander i meant unfair weapons because in the time that the first Tank or landmine was considered “unfair” because a tank could easily kill a soldier(although early tanks were shoty WWI vets say you could still smash someone under the tread if they got close enough) or a landmine because a soldier couldnt see it. Plus Englander what did you mean by saying I am funny i can surely laugh at the picture you chose but i dont feel it necesary to point that out(until now) because you’ve insulted me. Second of all i feel, in response to Kollary’s question, that SCDS covered it very well. Although i disagree that the k43 and mauser were about the same effectivness because of the power of fire put out from the guns pin pressure (ask me if anyone isnt sure what that is) and because of the fire rate. Other than that SCDS hit it right on the nose. His sites are of useful info also. Sorry for the spam. Hpoe i answered all your questions.

(Englander) #33

You made it sound like I was complaining about the weapons I mentioned when infact I was supporting how good I think they work,Korollary was saying how he feels every other weapon apart from the SMGs were incapacitated,I was just giving my opinion that I dont think there incapacited at all.
Then the next thing I see is you quoting me ,replying how unfair weapons are a reality,(like ive never seen a landmine before,obviously there reality ) ,I didnt even mention anything to do with them being fair or unfair and I feel you made it sound like I was complaining about being killed from them,you got the wrong end of the stick totally and came up with a reply wich had nothing to do with what I was saying…What I was saying is that I dont agree that all the weapons are incapacited apart from the SMG.

Then you insult me by saying I should watch the History Channel ,when all I mentioned was how the rifles unscoped are not accurate at long range in the game ET,I said this because there as been alot of people complaining about it and it could be looked at in this mod.

When I said your funny I just couldnt understand how or were you got your replys from.