need minimally modified goldrush map for competition HELP :)

[TFate]

Well, it seems another bridge between the comp community and the mapping community has officially been burned.

[detox]

h3rf,

Drop by #wwgn on gamesurge or www.worldwidegaming.org and put up a post there. I bet someone can help you out without the bashing.

well, I might bash you anyway, but that is not uncommon

[herf]

Heh,

Well, really guys, I tried to defuse your arguments by ceding we are lazy, but here is the real truth. We are just regular people like yourselves.

You guys SAY you try to help the community. Great. Well, I may be completely wrong, but I really really doubt it:

What the community needs is maps that are like supply depot and, I believe, Delivery. You guys say you WANT feedback, well I gave detailed feedback, I even preemptorily insulted myself and other gamers by calling us lazy, we ARENT, we just arent stupid, and we dont have a lot of time to waste.

The majority of maps are not going to be enjoyable at top levels of competitive play. Period. 99.9 percent of maps are going to be worthless for top level competitive play. They can be great for pubs, great for scenery, etc etc. Just not great for top level competitive play. Cathedral is a very pretty map, beatiful in its layout, I liked walking around and looking at it, no sarcasm here at all either, I am sincere.

Now if the map is complex, and takes forever to friggin basically learn it on a minalist simplistic level, ie learn layout completely, and learn the basic pubs tricks, the pub flow of it excetera… do the math, we arent lazy, just not stupid, and we all have real lives guys, WE are not going to put the time in for that 0.01 percent chance of success.

Now you SAY you want to help out, and gamers say, that map “suks”.

Well this gamer doesnt say that. I just make a simple request, and hear all this simplistic BABBLE.

hmmm, coding… ah yeah the great programers code of not boring others code? Hmmmm. The whole software industry is replete to the core with borrowed code. I would posit 99 pecent of these custom maps have “borrowed” textures, entities or whatever the hell from other maps, its the nature of it, all cept mrgnats, which he encodes entirely from scratch and borrows nothing from preexisting maps, heh.

So guys, the gamers arent any more LAZY than the coders, we both do what we do for fun. The majority of people who replied here are NOT interested in making or actually HELPING out the competitive community with something that for many of you, I suspect, would take less time to do than to read thru all this and write out a friggin reply.

Sigh. I guess mrgnat hopes the linux community ends up losing the legal challenge from the company that purports to own/acquire wholesale parts of the linux code. (please dont technical jargon babble about the linuxGNU stuff, I have read it its really fascinating). Heh, Its just complete NONSENSE to maintain their is some code among programers to not borrow code, the whole industry is rife with it, all cept mrgnat, praise be his purity, and praise be he deigned to share his wisdom by helpfully responding.

So, I havent burned any bridges, there arent any to begin with. You guys act like you want to help out, yet attack a simple request for help, a request backed by a poll of what gamers want (albiet a simple one, as far as I know, the ONLY one).

In terms of goldrush modifications, Riverstyx I dont WANT a goldrush modification per se, I like goldrush as is, except it is lockable at the end stage, and just needs very MINOR tweaks. I believe the majority of players feel the same way, the poll I took indicates that is true. We DO want new maps, the community is EXCITED about delivery map. (We were EXCITED about supply depot too). We are all hoping Delivery doesnt prove to be lockable after we really test it out, which will take like 2-3 cycles of having it as a map of the week. We are doing the first real test of it this coming week.

This stuff takes work and time. The players who are playing at the top level of ET are NOT lazy, we spend inordinate amounts of time with these maps, learning them inside and out.

I give delivery a 90 percent chance of success. Delivery I can easily and rapidly hold the whole map in my head, after having pubbed it like 3 times. I have pubbed it against players that can ALL DO THE SAME, ie they know the map and play it intelligently. I can forsee no problems so far.

Now contrast that against a more complex map, say cathedral, we pub it against players if its complex 90 percent of them DONT HAVE A CLUE HOW TO PLAY THE MAP. For catherdral, even after playing it like 100 times, I still count myself amongst that number, I am pretty smart, as I am sure we all are. So I play a complex map 100 times on a pub, I am still cluess, the majority of people I play with are clueless, hmmmm, I cant even form a basic feel for the map on a simplistic level. The problem is NOT with me, its with the map cathedral being complex I cant easily learn it, cant get a feel for it after playing it 100 times.

Cathedral may be the best comptitive map ever, but very very likely its NOT, just using random statics, 99.9 percent are not going to be. And from what limited feel I have playing it, I dont want to play the thing in compettition over several weeks of scrimming it every night… For what I percieve to be very little chance of success.

So, this whole post goes way beyond “it suks” I hope instead of sermonizing how much you want to help us, and agreeing that we are lazy, perhaps you can read between the lines here, and just consider that I am giving you guys real input into the competitive gaming audience.

And thanks to the guy who posted the other link, sounds like a reasonable approach.

Next time mrgnat, if you dont want to turn it into another goldrush post, perhaps just dont sermonize when somone asks for HELP?

So if anyone wants to actually HELP, please just make ONE of those two changes if you can spare the time out of the goodness of your heart. I would also gladly accept all three of course : )

Mappers, I appreciate your efforst and hard work, but I have honestly posted what I percieve to be the simple reality your efforts are up against. Its not laziness guys…

[nUllSkillZ]

Some non-sorted thoughts:

You say that 99.9 percent of the maps suck.
Which one have you tried?

I think the only thing that makes goldrush so attractive for changes is that the source is available (I myself compiled GR into a celshading looking map but haven’t released it - only has been done for testing purposes).
Actually I think it’s not allowed to change and release GR.
The GR source is ment as learning tool.

There’s a platform for clans / competition player’s:
http://www.worldwidegaming.org
irc://irc.gamesurge.net/#wwgn

But it isn’t populated that much.
And also here in the forums aren’t that much clans / competition players.

Ifurita has made some statements here in the forums about clans / competition players and there behaviour.

To make a competition map competition players have to be involved in early development.

I haven’t re-read your changes.
As I remember correct they can be done very easily.
So the best advice I can give you is to try it on your own if no one is willing to do it.

[herf]

well I appreciate most of that reply, seems reasonable, but again, I am not a programmer.

I dont know if delivery had players involved early, I dont know if supply depot did.

I CAN tell you, that both of them share similiar characteristics. Mainly they are easy to learn quickly.
Have well defined stages that defense can break thru after 3-7 waves.

I am simply not a programmer. If I could do it, I would.

I will go to that link. thanks.

H3rf

[_UBC_McNite]

Actually I think it’s not allowed to change and release GR.

Its very actually illegal in terms of the EULA of both ET and Radiant… you can blab around that a lot herf, that won’t change it. And I don’t think we want to discuss this point in this thread again cuz it has been discussed recently indeed here:
http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&t=10145&start=60
But maybe u should ask Nullzilla to do the changes for you, he will be happily at your service I m sure.

So, I havent burned any bridges, there arent any to begin with. You guys act like you want to help out, yet attack a simple request for help, a request backed by a poll of what gamers want (albiet a simple one, as far as I know, the ONLY one).

I think u came with a legally simply wrong and morally at least dubious request in a bad time: Discussion on whether ripping GR is ok or not had taken place, and result is that it is widely disapproved of. Not to speak of the “slap in the face of a mapper” that you d rather want a stock map changed than wanting to “waste” your time to have a look at other customs or maybe developing one with a mapper.

I think the development-issue is not solvable… real development means very early feedback at a time a map really looks like shit and most probably doesn’t play well. So it doesn’t get the chance cuz it sux… yea we know it sux, we wouldn’t want feedback if we were completely happy with it.
Plus it needs quite some time to properly develop it. My map needed 4 months and I had about 5 rounds of playtesting for 3 months. Maybe I m lucky but I had some clans helping me and 3 very good players discussing it with me, so I had some input while developing… look here for screenies and tell me what u think, I m curious about your opinion herf:
http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&t=10418

[RivrStyx]

Well Herf… your already saying the modifications made to goldrush in sw_goldrush aren’t any good without trying it and YOU don’t want it. So your not open minded to mappers. Your poll did not show the community wants what you do… making GR faster is what they want…and those that have tested sw_goldrush feel different.
What i did was keep goldrush still goldrush with minimal change (no added tunnels or other BS) but make it faster with less time to complete it so you don’t have the long drawn out matches…and it can be tweaked or other things changed to help this with suggestions.
YOU need to open up your mind. Your always on crusades as to what YOU think the community needs and feel everyone thinks as you do. Players don’t want to play goldrush for 20 mins a round with possible 2.5 hour matches… your changes won’t help this hardly at all. Euro guys have tried your changes and simply won’t help a whole lot. Being a mapper and a comp player…I didn’t just change things without any thought to it and 12-15 min rounds is what comp wants and needs…but your to close minded to try it. No use trying to get you to scrim on it and make suggestions cause your on another one of your crusades. Have fun

[Oxygen_o2]

herf, its people like you that make mapping for competition unbareable

you want to tweak maps to make them better, her is a crazy idea

USE A CUSTOM MAP

good points:

Helps a mapper to make more maps that helps ET
means that not every game of ET is tha same

bad points:

some competition players will bitch but thats because they are “1337” n00bs who only play illegal stock map screw-ups

use goldrush:

good points:

competition players will like it, but no1 gives a crap because competition players dont know what they want

bad points:

its illegal, and although activision might not do anything, there is a chance, also normal ET communities will shit on your map and encourage activision to sue your ass
map makers stop making maps because they dont feel like any1 gives a toss about their maps and resort to playing online RPG’s

just what i think, learn to be more respectful to the people who make these maps, there are people like fun communities like [FuN] and .Lang that respect these maps, competition players should care more about mappers who go out of their way to please people, only to be pissed on!

[RivrStyx]

The competitive community Oxygen just needs maps that are SW(stopwatch) friendly. Alot of maps made are for campaigns, pub play and more defensive friendly…which is fine… but doesn’t help when playing Stopwatch. 30 min rounds and full holds will make for long nights and dreading to play the map again. These maps are fine for campaign… not stopwatch. They need to be more offensive friendly so there will be times set and timelimits of 10-15 minutes.

As far as your statement "some competition players will bitch but thats because they are “1337” n00bs who only play illegal stock map screw-ups ". I don’t make screwed up maps whether it be an original or redoing a stock map for comp play to make it faster with quicker cap times for stopwatch play (remember we’re talking SW …not campaign matches). You may want to look at your own “noob” mapping skills before making a such a statement about someone making map screwups or take a look at the map i posted first before calling it a screw up.
The stock maps are great but some weren’t geared towards…again…“stopwatch” play and more for campaigns (maybe you don’t know the difference?).
There are custom maps geared towards SW being tested now and recieving feedback… and some are being used in comp play. Competitive players do know what makes for a good balanced map for stopwatch … although it is true… they are a bit nit picky.

I wouldn’t really call [FuN] and .Lang part of the competitive community that know what makes a good SW map. Sorry

[Ifurita]

LOL. I’ve gotten a ton of very good quality feedback (some positive, some negative, but most generally constructive) on my maps. Stopwatch maps can be pretty unforgiving if timing, distances, connectivity, etc are off by just a little bit

[blushing_bride]

im sorry herf but if you had played cathedral 100 times then you would surely know that it is essentially the same objective wise as radar and therefore no more or less complicated. If you cant hold it in your head as you say then perhaps the fault is with you and not the map as most of the european clans ive spoken too who have played it in official compitition dont seem to have a problem with understanding it. Too dismiss it as being too complicated is an excuse for not being bothered to play it and not giving the map a chance. If you cant be bothered with a map thats fine, it aint a crime. sadly most of the clan community cant be bothered with any custom maps so why should any of us be bothered (i could easily make the changes you want to goldrush in less than half an hour i reckon but i cant be bothered)

[herf]

I am not disrespectful towards any mapper.

I suggest you all get off your high horses here and go out and give wholehearted SUPPORT to the lawsuit against linux. There is where the KEY battle of software owership and non use of others code is being fought. Hmmmm. Or is it all just hypocrisy on your part? If you use Linux now, QUIT using it, you are in ACTIVE violation of a company that OWNS parts of the key linux code. They want to charge MONEY for it, unlike this measley example, where the authors likely DONT CARE, and defintely are NOT losing any money from someone moding and releasing goldrush.

Heh, logical childsplay. I find your response to a simple request for help just quite silly and disrespectful.

Quit using linux now guys, stick to your purported principles, show some RESPECT for the work of others.

puts the whole deal in a different light, I await your well reasoned replies, I strongly suspect, just a bunch of ad hominem stuff, and changing of subject attempts will be all that is forthcoming from most of this crowd.

Herf

[eRRoLfLyNN]

YAWN

[herf]

Heheh,

yeah silence from all the linux using programmers out there… As expected. Is there no one who can logically discuss my simple analogy here? Give some sort of rebuttal to it? I think it would be very hard to do : )

I will check back later, my high moral helpful friends, see if anyone has a germane reply, so far it has truly been YAWN indeed, a bunch of cheap easy talk and cost free moralizing. Now again, how about linux???

H3rf

[herf]

In terms of not wanting to be bothered helping, thats great guys, I hold nothing against you, it takes time and effort, and you will get nothing in return, but in the same token, when I read help messages, I usually dont bother to reply to them unless I actually offer HELP in some way. If you doubt me, check planetwolfenstein, I have helped out people many many times, getting nothing in return. Here a simple polite request for help generates this…

In terms of my experience with cathedral, yeah I could certainly be wrong, its just my perception of it, I am old, and frail mentally : ) So sue me, or get Activision to : )

I guess next time, I drive by someone stopped on the road trying to flag people with a busted tire, I will row down the window and say, yeah I could help you real easy, take five minutes of my time, but I am not going to, your driving an oil guzzling SUV, and thats morally wrong. And then I could offer him some silly legal advice to boot, and threaten to sue him for ozone depletion. Yawn indeed.

[TFate]

Well, the fact of the matter is, those people with a busted tire have absolutely nothing in common with a guy coming here and demanding something like this. And then he acts all surprised when no one wants to step forward because their reputation as a mapper is at risk. Do you honestly think those guys who produce the goldrush mods are respected and looked up to as mappers? Only in their clans!

In the time you’ve been posting here you could have downloaded and installed Radiant (free), learned how to delete an MG42, and change a texture no sweat. It takes no “programming,” it takes no “skill”, and it takes relatively no time. Furthermore goldrush is the map which is included with Radiant (thus all the mods have come about due to easy accessibility) so you can fool around with it all you want.

Look, you just came in here with the wrong attitude at the wrong time. You’ll find a multitude of mappers willing to help someone new without calling them n00bs or anything. If you had noticed another topic in the LD forum called “goldrush madness” I’m sure you’ll see why we’re all treating you like a joke.

[RivrStyx]

I did take a chance making a different goldrush version for SW at the risk of being called a suck ass mapper for doing it by mappers like yourself TFate. Thats fine and i know my mapping abilities reguardless of your comments. I’ve said before goldrush is my favorite map but its more for campaign and makes SW play to long. No matter what anyone thinks of competitive players…I was afraid one of the other 7 mods would be used for competition so i modded it over the way I thought would be best without removing what makes Goldrush goldrush …without all the new tunnels added and other BS thats in the others. You can say i suck at mapping for doing it but one of the versions would most likely be used and since i do play competitively i went ahead and did it. I’m not in a habit of changing existing maps and never have done it before in any games i’ve mapped for before and have spoke out against it. If you played competitely and saw the other goldrush maps created (whether right or wrong doing them) or heard some of the script changes being talked about to make GR timelimits shorter…you might have broke down also in fear of one of them being used. I wasn’t looking for respect or to be looked up to on this… just looking not to play a totally screwed up version that was going to be most likely used one way or another. If the leagues stay with the original reguardless of the possible long matches…fine with me… but at least a version that keeps the goldrush elements in tact is there just in case.
I think this has went on long enough…Not looking for acceptance on this but thought i’d explain my reasons…right or wrong in other mappers eyes.
Good luck with your mapping

[_UBC_McNite]

herf, what you lack BIG TIME is self-reflection… and accepting other ppls opinions when they don’t suit u. Grow up man or go to some kiddie-forum.

@ Errol: I think your answer was the only suitable one… I thought hard of what to write but decided it wasn’t worth the effort

[SCDS_reyalP]

herf, your “simple analogy” is utter bullshit, just like the SCO suit itself.

Which is too bad, because a minimal modification of goldrush for comp play is a good idea, and none of the people who are making their own versions of goldrush seem to have understood that. OTOH, I think the current flock of half assed RTCW conversions and goldrush rip-offs is ample reason why the old id policy of “don’t go there” (which they did actually state publicly, and enforce on occasion) was actually a good idea.

[NullZilla]

But maybe u should ask Nullzilla to do the changes for you, he will be happily at your service I m sure.

You’re a troll.