Nades back! (gief alrdy!!)

(tokamak) #21

Well that’s exactly it. If you don’t have Conker to take the stairs then you’ll most likely have a merc that is able to deal with the solution in some other way, even if inferior. And if it’s completely unfavorable the merc will have skills to solve a different problem elsewhere that Conker couldn’t.

However, imagine the opposite be true. Always having every merc available for each situation. That means that any advantages that players are cleverly using to their max will quickly be trumped by someone grabbing a new merc out of his infinite wardrobe of mercs.

The point is, you’re going to end up in situations where you’re not always suited for the job as well as situations where you’re completely lording it over. Every single player will experience that countless times. The moment you allow players to quickly gratify their needs by allowing an abundance of mercs at their disposal you water down all this distinction in the game.

Finding the best possible merc to deal with the situation simply is not what this game is about.

(Glottis-3D) #22

lets speak more concrete.

What are the options to deal with Balconies/Windows/Escalators. or other Defensive positions. If i play non-grenade mercs?
I mean literaly, what should i do?

You say, i am able to deal the situation the Other way. and there are no other ways in our current maps. Do you believe that maps will be redesigned, so that aside for the Nade-way there always will be a non-nade way to go??

(Glottis-3D) #23

It is not the photo-paper that gives me an erection, it is the lady on the photo does.

I dont need distinction for the sake of distinction, so that SD can tell on PAX, that they have whole lot of different mercs. I need game that is fun. and nades ARE fun. And being camped-out is not fun.

+++there should not be situation in the game, where a certain merc stops and says “Oh wait, i cannot go there, i am the wrong merc.” Distinction should be slight. not total. Otherwise give me back Class-objects. =/

(BomBaKlaK) #24

Maybe at least some alternative path can give you an advantage on the camper, level design need to be more versatile if there is no nades. More routes, more tricks jumps access, ladder, etc … But for the moment we have only frontal fights so the lack of nades doesn’t fit the narrow linears maps.
(I know you are working on maps Anti ! I Just give my thought about a situation !)

And I want more mercs with nades, maybe not all, but fragger only is really frustrating.

(Bitey) #25

[QUOTE=krokodealer;502771]lets speak more concrete.

What are the options to deal with Balconies/Windows/Escalators. or other Defensive positions. If i play non-grenade mercs?
I mean literaly, what should i do?
[/QUOTE]

Write up plays and utilize the information you know on the field to dominate the situation. While I’ve been with Hubris I’ve started spending time drawing up a movement plan, strategies, and an essential playbook. So far it seems to yield success on breaking situations which normal seem to cause strife for many teams. So the real question is why do you keep pushing chokepoints without having a more essential goal?

Also most of the mercs already have abilitis which somewhat accomplish similar feats of hand grenades:

Skyhammers ability can be used as a grenade
Arty’s strike can be fired into some buildings and covered positions
Stoker has a firebomb
Fletcher can throw his explosives into almost any room, direct hits are instant kills
Thunder is self explanatory
Fragger’s grenade needs a radius buff, but is the essence of a grenade
Proxy can drop the mine and fire at it or isolate the camped location by using the mines
Bushwacker can drop his turret in the middle of the room and use it as a decoy.
Vassil and ruin all camping locations with his motion detector
Redeye can smoke out a defender from their location or use his vision to assist.

The point is, ask yourself why you are pushing the choke points or trying to claim the position and if there is another way around the situation. Why would you want to just push a location for the sake of controlling it. Rather then just fighting because their are enemies in the location, you should always strive for making the opponent come to you when you control the pacing. It’s an essential part of competitive play, which in most situations can be equally applied into public play.

HOWEVER, I fully agree this spawn system sucks and needs to be re-written into something outside of ET lifecycle. This cycling wave is the worst system, even with more time it just adds more random chance. Tf2, dystopia, or something else make something new that works. Because this current system is zzzeasy

(k0k0nat) #26

There are no other ways then controlling the current choke points. Balcony on Waterloo and MG-House on Trainyard for example have to be captured simply because they offer the best positions for the attackers/defenders and have the best vision on the objective.

And even if you successfully counter some campers, they will be right back in seconds.

Lack of alternative routes + Insta-Spawns …

And lets be more conrete:

If I smoke and kill a Thunder/Aura combo with Redeye ( who is also OP, no doubt) on Waterloo or Trainyard, they will be in the game again in the next 10 seconds ( Average in 5 seconds ). Currently its fighting fire with fire. If nobody on your team plays OP mercs, your screwed.

But hey, its closed beta \o/

(Glottis-3D) #27

I mostly speak from pub-perspective. because in comp-games i always seek for enemy’s weak point.

but in pub-games. and this is 90% of my games now. i just want to play how i want. and i am definitely am not able to play how i want. and all other players in my pub team (i.e. random dudes and dudessess) also - what a surprise - want to play how they want. I cannot wait for fraggers and conkers clear the way to the object. Because they dont usually clear anything, they just frag somewhere else. Or they die. OR they do not exist in my team. Or they are not fast enough for me. And i am a Bushwacker facing two defensive medics at the object. And so i die.
what’s with my wish to play a fast paced inventive, object-oriented game? and not being dependent on some other players, that dont give a boner about object, or are not skilled enough, or just test some mercs.

(Glottis-3D) #28

I - for a change - played a supporting role yesterday. didnot play the obj. we held defenders for 10 minutes on 1st waterloo without giving our positions. and noone planted. not a person planted the door. That was the most boring game in the universe. I cannot play that. I always play object. And if my team doesnt support me, i think i still must be able to play the objects (i know i was in etqw). To some extent ofc. But now it is Zero Extent.

(tokamak) #29

Come on, these are all new people. Once they figure it out the problem swings to the other side and we’ll all be complaining about lemming rushers.

(k0k0nat) #30

As Smooth said, there will a tutorial for newbies soon. Hope that will help.

(tokamak) #31

It just hit me, wouldn’t it be cool if the tutorial consisted of these blue and red death ghosts doing all the important things? You could then implement a sequence for every single map in the game.Players could roam around the map while the tutorial plays, skip, repeat, fast forward, slow motion or try the whole thing themselves. If they stray too far they can teleport to the ghosts again in the click of a button.

(PixelTwitch) #32

Actually… I feel nades at the moment on everyone could cause some big issues…

More and more Mercs are coming out with stationary abilities, a more bunched up play style has evolved from no nades and balancing around them would be a pain… Zoom out, bigger picture…

(Glottis-3D) #33

nades mean more fast, more dinamic game.

+you guys do too much of theorizing. this would cause this, and prbbly cause that. when we HAD nades, it was much better and fun. thats a fact.

+and balance of nades, in order to avoid spam etc is another issue.
i am not saying nades for all mercs. but for more mercs.

(PixelTwitch) #34

[QUOTE=k0k0nat;502779]There are no other ways then controlling the current choke points. Balcony on Waterloo and MG-House on Trainyard for example have to be captured simply because they offer the best positions for the attackers/defenders and have the best vision on the objective.

And even if you successfully counter some campers, they will be right back in seconds.

Lack of alternative routes + Insta-Spawns …

And lets be more conrete:

If I smoke and kill a Thunder/Aura combo with Redeye ( who is also OP, no doubt) on Waterloo or Trainyard, they will be in the game again in the next 10 seconds ( Average in 5 seconds ). Currently its fighting fire with fire. If nobody on your team plays OP mercs, your screwed.

But hey, its closed beta \o/[/QUOTE]

The thing most people are not mentioning is how to pull the defenders out of the balcony…

Stick 2 people ready to push balcony and do a 3 man forward spawn push or 3 man push down luggage towards elbow and pull them out.
If you manage to plant or take forward spawn and the defenders do not leave the safety of inner balcony I would be very surprised.

in the literally dozens of matches I have both played and watched on Victoria… I have noticed the balcony is only really as strong as the attackers allow it to be. pincer movement, nades, picks and objective pushes all work…

Face planting into it again and again does not…

(PixelTwitch) #35

The game is already TOO fast and TOO dynamic.

(Glottis-3D) #36

i disagree!!!

(tokamak) #37

A good tactical game resolves a part of the conflicts by players bruteforcing their way with combat skill and part of the conflicts ought to be resolved by strategical decisions. What made ETQW the ultimate FPS for me is that it managed to perfectly balance deliberate tactics with hectic shootouts.

Currently, DB exists mostly of hectic shootouts. The deliberate tactics are starting to become slightly more prominent, but the game isn’t anywhere close to the balance that ETQW managed. Now, QW had a huge macro level of gameplay with vehicles and deployables which DB never will have. So DB needs to find it’s stratagems somewhere else, on a smaller scale.

That’s where the grenades are relevant. Grenades are one of the many stratagems. They can be a merc’s strength that other mercs lack. They can open a range of tactical possibilities that only that merc can bring to his team. Just like medpacks, airstrikes, turrets, recon or whatever.

If all players had that option it would just disappear again in the hectic fray of combat. No choices, just chucking whatever you have at the chaos and hoping that some things may stick.

To me, that’s boring. Quake Wars avoided that with big toys (which made it’s grenades less prominent). DB won’t have big toys so the small toys will have to do all the heavy lifting. This game still has a very long way to go before merc abilities truly start to have a big enough impact on the outcome of the fights. That’s why I believe that any ability that doesn’t have to be necessarily shared by all players HAS to be limited to certain mercs or classes. It keeps the space open for merc abilities to arise and define the gameplay further.

(PixelTwitch) #38

Thats likely because you think you are a lot better than you actually are…
It has already been confirmed that if you speed the game up the accuracy drops a lot…

Also, Dynamic and Random are to faces of the same coin and far too easy to confuse!
Adding nade spam does not increase Dynamic play, it just adds to the randomness factor that everyone likes to complain about already.

(k0k0nat) #39

I wouldn’t consider luggage a alternative route… its just a death trap since you can jump on the defenders balcony.

(Glottis-3D) #40

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;502816]Thats likely because you think you are a lot better than you actually are…
It has already been confirmed that if you speed the game up the accuracy drops a lot…[/QUOTE]
wrong, i know exactly how bad i am.
i never realy cared too much about accuracy.
but being quick in movement, quick in desision making, surprise and be suprised. thats what i like.