My philosophy on what burst rifles are and should be

(hoyes) #1

The br and the stark are undeniably the best guns in the game. The.br being too spammy and the.stark being a headshot machine. My idea is that you reduce the damages of both guns by -1. You now may be thinking 'but that would make them just like.any other gun but my idea is that these guns should have an average body shot ttk but on headshots,because of the firerate, would be able to take down mercs quicker than other weapons. This would justify them being skill-oriented weapons not affecting the higher lvl players as much as the lower ones who can now be easily outgunned by other weapons. What do you think?

(Eox) #2

Meh. Just reduce the fire rate of bursts IMO (careful : that’s not delay between bursts, that’s how quick the bullets are fired during the burst fire). This makes triple HS harder to pull out and reduce the DPS enough without ruining it too much.

(watsyurdeal) #3

The problem is when you are trying to calculate damage output, you have to consider the health of the different mercs, what role you want the burst rifles to fill, etc.

This is part of the reason why the game is sort of a mess with weapon balance, a lot of the numbers are way off, and it leads to certain unbalances.

I’m actually trying to figure out what role burst rifles could fill aside from being the Grandeur or Dreiss of certain mercs, high risk high reward rifles. But considering certain ones have nothing BUT those kind of guns, we are left with a rather huge problem.

(MisterBadmin) #4

The stark currently does 108 damage on a triple dink headshot. Removing 1 damage would reduce that to 102, being effectively meaningless, it would still one-burst everything it currently does.

The BR does 90 damage on a triple dink headshot. Removing 1 damage would reduce that to 84, meaning it can only one-burst Sparks and Aura.

Dropping 1 damage wouldn’t affect the stark and might possibly balance the BR. It would still have really high burst potential though, so I doubt it would change anything.

(Dawnlazy) #5

I like that assault rifles are powerful weapons, in fact I think it’s the other rifles that need changes if people don’t feel like picking them instead. M4 could do with a longer effective range (to match that of the burst rifles), Dreiss could do with a slight firerate buff (and maybe drop damage by 1 or 2), Timik needs some sort of rework to not be and RNGfied M4.

I don’t like this, makes them less about point-and-click and more like the rest of the tracking weapons, I already dislike the BR and find it to be inferior to the Stark because of the slower burst. Maybe slightly increase pause between bursts for the Stark, and decrease damage but also lower cooldown between bursts for the BR to differentiate them more?

This is wrong, BR does 17 damage per shot so a triple headshot hits for 102.

(ProfPlump) #6

The main thing that the Stark and BR need is a quicker drop off of damage over range. Right now they VASTLY outperform the M4/Timik/K-121/MK46 and even the Driess due to the burst rifless incredibly small hipfire spread and recoil, and relatively low damage drop off. In fact, the Stark can very often outdamage the Grandeur/PDP at long ranges as well. What we need is for the Driess to have much less damage drop off (but not absolutely no drop off), and the Stark/BR to have a bit more damage drop off, because right now the Stark especially is FAR too good at these ranges.

(BananaSlug) #7

@Dawnrazor noooo, keep the long kill time, thats why i am playing the game

(ProfPlump) #8

[quote=“BananaSlug;190064”]@Dawnrazor noooo, keep the long kill time, thats why i am playing the game
[/quote]

You think it’s fair that the Driess and the Grandeur are completely outclassed in long range by an assault rifle? While at the same time they are far worse in close and medium range than said assault rifle?

(hoyes) #9

I agree with @ProfPlump with how currently the dreiss and g grandeur are severely outclassed by the burst rifles, whilst having the same or more amount of skill to use. The burst rifles in any case should also have a range reduction as that would allow the semi auto weapons to easily beat them at long range, effectively giving them a niche scenario in which they outclass most other weapons.

(BananaSlug) #10

@ProfPlump i had in mind that buffing weapons would decrease kill time, nerf stronger weapons, not buff weaker
i really like the speed of the game and i dont feel that some weapons are weaker, i feel that br and stark is stronger than others

and dreiss… this weapons really needs changes, you can be amazing or shit with it, because with faster weapons you can hit some headshoots and some bodyshoots, with dreiss i was hitting only headshoots or only bodyshoots and the range feels awful, but that is probably just me

(ProfPlump) #11

[quote=“BananaSlug;190716”]@ProfPlump i had in mind that buffing weapons would decrease kill time, nerf stronger weapons, not buff weaker
i really like the speed of the game and i dont feel that some weapons are weaker, i feel that br and stark is stronger than others

and dreiss… this weapons really needs changes, you can be amazing or @$!# with it, because with faster weapons you can hit some headshoots and some bodyshoots, with dreiss i was hitting only headshoots or only bodyshoots and the range feels awful, but that is probably just me[/quote]

I see what you’re saying, and I’m not disagreeing… I said we need a slight nerf to the Stark/BR’s ranged damage, and the opposite effect in the form of a buff for the Driess.

(Tanker_Ray) #12

Dreiss already has 31m which is the longest range among all weapons EXCEPT sniper rifles.

BR’s 29m range is same as Timik, and Stark’s 30m is second highest with highest 54 burst damage it does.

But considering this is what bursts do, like @Eox said I would rather see the good old RoF both gun had. I mean, the time right after the CW update reworked those two.

Stark is bit less spammy but still able to crush anyone before its spread gets wider, and let’s not even talk about BR.

But one thing, if they are going to nerf bursts, they really should roll back Vassili’s HP to 100.

No way to kill him easy without using burst rifles or counter with same sniper rifles.

(arcaneCanvas) #13

Dreiss already has 31m which is the longest range among all weapons EXCEPT sniper rifles.

BR’s 29m range is same as Timik, and Stark’s 30m is second highest with highest 54 burst damage it does.

But considering this is what bursts do, like @Eox said I would rather see the good old RoF both gun had. I mean, the time right after the CW update reworked those two.

Stark is bit less spammy but still able to crush anyone before its spread gets wider, and let’s not even talk about BR.

But one thing, if they are going to nerf bursts, they really should roll back Vassili’s HP to 100.

No way to kill him easy without using burst rifles or counter with same sniper rifles.[/quote]

well snipers are supposedly hard to shoot because they are far, but hey we do need counter on every merc or it wouldnt be fairplay.

(Tanker_Ray) #14

@arcaneCanvas @neverplayserious

I don’t want to talk about Vassili here, but burst rifle nowadays have very close relationship with Vassili.

Not only about killing him, but also damaging him so you can scare him out, forcing him to hide.

as all SMG’s range has standardized to 18m, I really had such a hard time facing pro snipers with strong frontline. Not pub Vas that I can destroy them so easily.

There are no other good weapons to counter that. Even M4 doesn’t.(26m range is not enough.) Burst rifles are only option to damage/kill this110HP far range damage dealer nowadays.

Timik’s 29m range might help, but its got a horrible ironsight.

and Vas with MP400 and 110HP is surprisingly tanky and super annoying unlike the old days with MOA’s RoF buff accumulation.

considering how Sawbonez’s 110HP is tanky and stable, he’s got too much HP for him.

Can sustain whole headshot of Stark, and two headshot of Dreiss. This is hella tanky.

HP still doesn’t matter to noobsilly but when you face real pros that always shoots your damn watermelon, evading your DPS or AoE skills, then your thoughts might change.

Especially when you attack in Chapel. Bursts are the only option unless you pick same Vassili to counter snipe or Red Eye to block all enemy sniper shots.

(arcaneCanvas) #15

[quote=“THUNDA;191169”]@arcaneCanvas @neverplayserious

I don’t want to talk about Vassili here, but burst rifle nowadays have very close relationship with Vassili.

Not only about killing him, but also damaging him so you can scare him out, forcing him to hide.

as all SMG’s range has standardized to 18m, I really had such a hard time facing pro snipers with strong frontline. Not pub Vas that I can destroy them so easily.

There are no other good weapons to counter that. Even M4 doesn’t.(26m range is not enough.) Burst rifles are only option to damage/kill this110HP far range damage dealer nowadays.

Timik’s 29m range might help, but its got a horrible ironsight.

and Vas with MP400 and 110HP is surprisingly tanky and super annoying unlike the old days with MOA’s RoF buff accumulation.

considering how Sawbonez’s 110HP is tanky and stable, he’s got too much HP for him.

Can sustain whole headshot of Stark, and two headshot of Dreiss. This is hella tanky.

HP still doesn’t matter to noobsilly but when you face real pros that always shoots your damn watermelon, evading your DPS or AoE skills, then your thoughts might change.

Especially when you attack in Chapel. Bursts are the only option unless you pick same Vassili to counter snipe or Red Eye to block all enemy sniper shots.[/quote]

so in other word, it shouldnt only burst rifles that can easily scare vasilli?
im a pub dirt, i never really against a very good sniper or a pro ones

but from what i can gather from other people, burst rifle does have his purposes but people dont want it to be an omnipurpose weapon?

(Tanker_Ray) #16

@arcaneCanvas

Yes, as all weapon’s range was very very nerfed nowaday when you compare this from when DB was in CB.

Noobs that don’t even use MP400 properly is easy kill whether he has 110HP or 100, but

If pro Vassili failed to headshot you, they will shoot you in the body and bravely pop your head with his MP400.(Recon class is originally for Defender, so let’s pretend you were Attacking.)

110HP is also same as Bush and Fletcher, and this is quite a lot for long range damage dealer who’s suppose to be weak and vulnerable.

About second part, yes you are right.

Stark AR got a proper nerf at this year Feb Fine Tuning, so I won’t mention this gun eventhough it is still the best gun to shoot far range, and insta kill female mercs.

BR-16 is the top of that omni-purpose weapon.

It has 2 sec of reload time same as Timik. (FASTEDT RELOAD AMONG ARs)

Can even reload faster with Drilled + Reload cancel.

It shoots 17 damage three times with single click. (17dmg = same as K-121 single bullet dmg.)

It has HIGHEST 139.4 DPS among all normal weapons except minigun.

It has 29m range. Good at ANY RANGE with crazy Damage and DPS.(Third highest in DB except Sniper Rifles. Same as Timik.)

It has enough 30 rounds of mag.

It has VERY low spread compared to Stark, or even other guns.

Fast bullet Usage is covered by using mercs like Arty/Kira/Skyhammer which is Fire Support.

This gun has absolutely no weak points. Even Stark has its disadvantage like wider spread after the nerf, and horizontal recoil.

Only nerf that isn’t even a nerf BR-16 got was Feb Fine Tuning’s VERTICAL recoil 10%.

and that means anyone can control that just by pulling your mouse down a BIT.

Guns like this should never appear again.

(arcaneCanvas) #17

[quote=“THUNDA;191180”]@arcaneCanvas

Yes, as all weapon’s range was very very nerfed nowaday when you compare this from when DB was in CB.

Noobs that don’t even use MP400 properly is easy kill whether he has 110HP or 100, but

If pro Vassili failed to headshot you, they will shoot you in the body and bravely pop your head with his MP400.(Recon class is originally for Defender, so let’s pretend you were Attacking.)

110HP is also same as Bush and Fletcher, and this is quite a lot for long range damage dealer who’s suppose to be weak and vulnerable.

About second part, yes you are right.

Stark AR got a proper nerf at this year Feb Fine Tuning, so I won’t mention this gun eventhough it is still the best gun to shoot far range, and insta kill female mercs.

BR-16 is the top of that omni-purpose weapon.

It has 2 sec of reload time same as Timik. (FASTEDT RELOAD AMONG ARs)

Can even reload faster with Drilled + Reload cancel.

It shoots 17 damage three times with single click. (17dmg = same as K-121 single bullet dmg.)

It has HIGHEST 139.4 DPS among all normal weapons except minigun.

It has 29m range. Good at ANY RANGE with crazy Damage and DPS.(Third highest in DB except Sniper Rifles. Same as Timik.)

It has enough 30 rounds of mag.

It has VERY low spread compared to Stark, or even other guns.

Fast bullet Usage is covered by using mercs like Arty/Kira/Skyhammer which is Fire Support.

This gun has absolutely no weak points. Even Stark has its disadvantage like wider spread after the nerf, and horizontal recoil.

Only nerf that isn’t even a nerf BR-16 got was Feb Fine Tuning’s VERTICAL recoil 10%.

and that means anyone can control that just by pulling your mouse down a BIT.

Guns like this should never appear again.[/quote]

well im using kira Mechanic BR on sometimes now and i get that
its like im holding hot butter knife on a butter.

if a gun become a masterkey to a game, then it would be no fun.
like a game i used to play where kriss vector beats all weapons in terms of dps, range, accuracy, stability, ammo and everything hell you can even do akimbo on it

every kid in the block who knows jack shid on the game buys this gun and this gun made premium by the developer.
every year they stealth buff that gun to make it more powerfull so others in the competitive would buy this gun as well.

last time i play, i used the cheapest gun in the game to headshot those unskillfull clowns
and finally i get banned because apparently using the weakest gun in the game to dominate the game is considered cheating (which im not. im a 14 years old ffs, i dont even know how to cheat). i was banned, my crew get banned too because people salty about my ump5 cheating basterd (thats how people say it back here) all of this because they dont want their omnipurpose weapon to be beaten by some kid.

(ProfPlump) #18

[quote=“arcaneCanvas;191236”][quote=“THUNDA;191180”]@arcaneCanvas

Yes, as all weapon’s range was very very nerfed nowaday when you compare this from when DB was in CB.

Noobs that don’t even use MP400 properly is easy kill whether he has 110HP or 100, but

If pro Vassili failed to headshot you, they will shoot you in the body and bravely pop your head with his MP400.(Recon class is originally for Defender, so let’s pretend you were Attacking.)

110HP is also same as Bush and Fletcher, and this is quite a lot for long range damage dealer who’s suppose to be weak and vulnerable.

About second part, yes you are right.

Stark AR got a proper nerf at this year Feb Fine Tuning, so I won’t mention this gun eventhough it is still the best gun to shoot far range, and insta kill female mercs.

BR-16 is the top of that omni-purpose weapon.

It has 2 sec of reload time same as Timik. (FASTEDT RELOAD AMONG ARs)

Can even reload faster with Drilled + Reload cancel.

It shoots 17 damage three times with single click. (17dmg = same as K-121 single bullet dmg.)

It has HIGHEST 139.4 DPS among all normal weapons except minigun.

It has 29m range. Good at ANY RANGE with crazy Damage and DPS.(Third highest in DB except Sniper Rifles. Same as Timik.)

It has enough 30 rounds of mag.

It has VERY low spread compared to Stark, or even other guns.

Fast bullet Usage is covered by using mercs like Arty/Kira/Skyhammer which is Fire Support.

This gun has absolutely no weak points. Even Stark has its disadvantage like wider spread after the nerf, and horizontal recoil.

Only nerf that isn’t even a nerf BR-16 got was Feb Fine Tuning’s VERTICAL recoil 10%.

and that means anyone can control that just by pulling your mouse down a BIT.

Guns like this should never appear again.[/quote]

well im using kira Mechanic BR on sometimes now and i get that
its like im holding hot butter knife on a butter.

if a gun become a masterkey to a game, then it would be no fun.
like a game i used to play where kriss vector beats all weapons in terms of dps, range, accuracy, stability, ammo and everything hell you can even do akimbo on it

every kid in the block who knows jack shid on the game buys this gun and this gun made premium by the developer.
every year they stealth buff that gun to make it more powerfull so others in the competitive would buy this gun as well.

last time i play, i used the cheapest gun in the game to headshot those unskillfull clowns
and finally i get banned because apparently using the weakest gun in the game to dominate the game is considered cheating (which im not. im a 14 years old ffs, i dont even know how to cheat). i was banned, my crew get banned too because people salty about my ump5 cheating basterd (thats how people say it back here) all of this because they dont want their omnipurpose weapon to be beaten by some kid.[/quote]

No one asked for your life story buddy… lol

But seriously, the fact that the BR/Stark are the best guns in the game doesn’t mean that they’re the ONLY guns that are ever used. For a good team, you need one or two medics and (for most sections of most maps) and objective specialist, and that means that those players need to use SMGs. You’re exaggerating a little by saying that the BR/Stark are masterkeys.

That said, it’d be nice to see the K-121 and MK46 have SOME kind of advantage over the BR/Stark (such as close range DPS superiority), but I don’t think the fully automatic assault rifles should become the strongest weapons in the game like they used to be.

What I think we need is:

  • a buff to the K-121 and MK46’s close range DPS (putting them up to about 132-135 DPS) but keep their damage at medium and long range the same as they are at the moment. That way the LMGs will be the best for close range pushing while the Burst Rifles will have the advantage at medium-long range.
  • an accuracy buff to the M4/Timik as well as a VERY small buff to their firerates (by about 2-3%). This would make them a bit stronger and more of a jack of all trades weapon (effective at close and medium range, but not the BEST at either ranges).
  • a NERF to the Burst Rifle’s close range DPS so that it is only JUST higher than the M4/Timik and JUST lower than the LMGs.
  • and range-extension for the Driess AR (so that the distance doesn’t effect the damage per bullet so greatly) and a very minor nerf to the RoF (about 10%). This would make the Driess the best weapon for medium-long range out of all the weapons EXCEPT for the snipers, of course, but would also be sub-par to all other weapons in close quarters (except the weak SMGs).

These changes would make each kind of gun play its own way:

  • Close range, you want the MK46/K-121 LMGs OR if your merc is a fire support (such as Skyhammer/Stoker) you want the M4/Timik).
  • Medium range WITH competancy in close range - you want the Burst Rifles.
  • Medium range WITH competancy in long range - you want the Driess AR.
(arcaneCanvas) #19

[quote=“ProfPlump;191243”][quote=“arcaneCanvas;191236”][quote=“THUNDA;191180”]@arcaneCanvas

Yes, as all weapon’s range was very very nerfed nowaday when you compare this from when DB was in CB.

Noobs that don’t even use MP400 properly is easy kill whether he has 110HP or 100, but

If pro Vassili failed to headshot you, they will shoot you in the body and bravely pop your head with his MP400.(Recon class is originally for Defender, so let’s pretend you were Attacking.)

110HP is also same as Bush and Fletcher, and this is quite a lot for long range damage dealer who’s suppose to be weak and vulnerable.

About second part, yes you are right.

Stark AR got a proper nerf at this year Feb Fine Tuning, so I won’t mention this gun eventhough it is still the best gun to shoot far range, and insta kill female mercs.

BR-16 is the top of that omni-purpose weapon.

It has 2 sec of reload time same as Timik. (FASTEDT RELOAD AMONG ARs)

Can even reload faster with Drilled + Reload cancel.

It shoots 17 damage three times with single click. (17dmg = same as K-121 single bullet dmg.)

It has HIGHEST 139.4 DPS among all normal weapons except minigun.

It has 29m range. Good at ANY RANGE with crazy Damage and DPS.(Third highest in DB except Sniper Rifles. Same as Timik.)

It has enough 30 rounds of mag.

It has VERY low spread compared to Stark, or even other guns.

Fast bullet Usage is covered by using mercs like Arty/Kira/Skyhammer which is Fire Support.

This gun has absolutely no weak points. Even Stark has its disadvantage like wider spread after the nerf, and horizontal recoil.

Only nerf that isn’t even a nerf BR-16 got was Feb Fine Tuning’s VERTICAL recoil 10%.

and that means anyone can control that just by pulling your mouse down a BIT.

Guns like this should never appear again.[/quote]

well im using kira Mechanic BR on sometimes now and i get that
its like im holding hot butter knife on a butter.

if a gun become a masterkey to a game, then it would be no fun.
like a game i used to play where kriss vector beats all weapons in terms of dps, range, accuracy, stability, ammo and everything hell you can even do akimbo on it

every kid in the block who knows jack shid on the game buys this gun and this gun made premium by the developer.
every year they stealth buff that gun to make it more powerfull so others in the competitive would buy this gun as well.

last time i play, i used the cheapest gun in the game to headshot those unskillfull clowns
and finally i get banned because apparently using the weakest gun in the game to dominate the game is considered cheating (which im not. im a 14 years old ffs, i dont even know how to cheat). i was banned, my crew get banned too because people salty about my ump5 cheating basterd (thats how people say it back here) all of this because they dont want their omnipurpose weapon to be beaten by some kid.[/quote]

No one asked for your life story buddy… lol

[/quote]

naw man i just dont want any game to be obsessed with money and trying to sell that one gun that is an omnipurpose weapon.
then bans people for being good with cheap guns.

its a very traumatic experience (maybe because i spent a lot of my time on that game).

(doxjq) #20

Personally I like the K121 when I do use it, but it’s the reload time that puts me off. I use it at all ranges and I’m putting out 44.6% accuracy with it, but it’s just in this stupid spot where unless I can escape from an enemy before I reload (I don’t just mean hide behind a corner) it’s almost pointless to even try. Most people know you’re going to take forever to reload, and take advantage of that situation. This is kind of why I agree with Plump here. The uselessness of the K121 is mostly in the clip size imo, not so much its effectiveness in combat. I would happily go along with a slightly bigger clip on the K121, even if it was only 10-15 bullets.

Agree mostly with what @ProfPlump says, but I don’t necessarily feel like the burst rifles need to be nerfed up close. Everyone will argue it differently, but they have less room for error up close compared to the automatic rifles, so in my opinion they need to keep the high risk high reward balance otherwise the game will just go back to the full auto meta. If you miss an entire burst against someone who is only missing 1 or 2 bullets from their M4 or Timik, you can almost always guarantee you’ll lose the battle.

I do think their long range could use some tweaking though, because to me it kind of feels like there is no drop off. I’m constantly plinking off Vassili’s with my Stark, and I can happily cross map kill plenty of people. Trying to do this with the M4 and Timik is pretty much impossible. The kill time is just way too slow to do it safely against skilled players.

Personally the Dreiss, I think this weapon is just weird. For me to use it effectively, I can only really use it up close. If you can get so close to someone that you don’t have to worry about recoil it has a seriously fast kill time, and it seems silly to me since it’s supposed to be a slightly longer range weapon. As someone said in another thread once, it’s in a strange spot where it has too much recoil to fire quickly, but it doesn’t do enough damage for carefully timed plinking, so it’s sitting in a strange place.

Personally, if it were up to me, I would be doing this:

M4 and Timik - tighten up the spread up close for even more effective CQC, increase the reload speed by 5%. Leave the range as is.

Stark / BR - leave the spread as is, but give them a shorter range at long distances, and decrease their reload speed by 5%.

Dreiss - give the gun an extra 5 metres of range, give it some kind of sight so it can actually be used effectively at range.

Grandeur - i’m actually a huge fan of the Grandeur, and I think it’s in a nice spot as is. Everyone screams for more buffs, but it really does not need it. It’s insanely high risk high reward, but done right it can be bloody effective.

Personally, I’d like to see the Dreiss headshot damage buffed from 54 to 55 so it has some practical difference. 110hp mercs could then be taken out with two headshots instead of 3, but all other mercs TTK remains unchanged by the damage buff. I just think it would give some extra use for the gun. But I can also understand other people would argue that makes the gun too effective, which is why I am not pushing for it.