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(OwNLY) #61

[QUOTE=Smooth;471677]
That’s what I think FireWater is mostly on about. We’re not talking about lowering the skill ceiling at all, we want a high skill ceiling to support competition and give the game depth (and yes we know there still a lot more to do here) but we can do it in such a way that newer players are NOT instantly overwhelmed the first time they play.[/QUOTE]

First, i don´t see that you are working towards a higher skill ceiling, more the exact opposite.

Then you don´t want to intimidate and overwhelm new users.
But you are throwing LOTS of content into the game they have no access to.
Mercs with abilites they have never seen before, and won´t be able to play until they paid for it or played a few hours to unlock them.
That means you need to have a HUGE tutorial for new players, where new abilites get perfectly explained.

Either way, new players will have to spend several hours on understanding the game until they will have a good time with it.
Even me, a comp player, runs in the first hours after weeks of no play into the abilities for a few times until im aware of them again.
CoD is able to keep the player base because you just have to learn the maps, everything else works exactly like in the previous game.
And it´s easy as ****.
Older games like CS, Ouake and W:ET had a somewhat limited content.
less than a dozen primary weapons, a few other things like nades, powerups or abilities.

You get your ass kicked in the first few matches, but if you like the gameplay, you will keep playing.
No matter if you get fast newbie-satisfaction that wears off once you get better,
and you don´t play for the next level-up with the unlock of certain things.

I played a bit CS, tried until i got a bit better, but didnt really like it.
The first time i played Quake Live was against a pretty decent CPMA player, after that i didnt really want to play again.
But from time to time i played again, now i learnd basic strafe jumping and play more often because i start to really enjoy it.
Still Tier 4 is sometimes no fun :frowning:

(DarkangelUK) #62

Only if it’s a wide generalization such as “do what CoD did, it’s doing well”… throw some specifics in the mix and we may see some more structured discussion :slight_smile:

(Humate) #63

Gaming is about fun again for most players. Gaming is about feeling empowered in a world which tries to disempower you regularly. In terms of the “False Sense of Accomplishment” why is that so important?

Fun doesnt exclude competitive skill based gaming.
Dissecting an opponents tendencies, tendencies they don’t even know have, devising a complicated plan for your team to exploit it and then seeing the fruit of that as it unfolds is incredibly satisfying. And theres ofcourse the opposite, where everyone is working in synchronicity with each other and not a word needs to be said, no plan is required yet in execution it was if there was a plan. Both are satisfying in very different ways, and I’m sure anyone that has played competitively whether that be in gaming, or in sport can attest to these aspects.

Oh, and theres nothing wrong with enjoying “fast food gaming”, theres a time and place for that, but theres always someone offering it.

(INF3RN0) #64

[QUOTE=Smooth;471677]You can still have a game with ‘high skill’ game mechanics but the supporting services (such as optional skill-based matchmaking) to make the game less intimidating to new users.

That’s what I think FireWater is mostly on about. We’re not talking about lowering the skill ceiling at all, we want a high skill ceiling to support competition and give the game depth (and yes we know there still a lot more to do here) but we can do it in such a way that newer players are NOT instantly overwhelmed the first time they play.

The way I see it; ‘high-skill’ is fine (and desired!) but ‘unintuitive’ is not. That’s the fine line we need to tread.[/QUOTE]

^This is the point I think most people here overlook. It’s not about lowering skill ceilings or copying CoD. It’s about extracting the aspects of CoD and other successful games that aren’t necessarily directly related to the game mechanics themselves that make them so popular. You can reproduce a lot of the same things without making an identical game. Most gamers want to have a fun experience, and being thrown straight into the fire can overwhelm a lot of people. The “hardcore gamers” are a very niche group these days, and as a “hardcore gamer” myself I’m most interested in having people to play with so that I can enjoy a unique FPS experience. My concern is to simply help the casual gamer grow into a more hardcore mindset, but I can’t expect them to just man up and deal with it because it won’t happen. It’s an unfortunate reality, but it’s very necessary to take it seriously at this point.

(FireWater) #65

I am trying to have a discussion but we have to get through all of the “but cod is noob” posts first.

Now that I think we have, I think it’s safe to say that the lower Ttk in cod combined with fast and sometimes favorable spawning. Is largely attractive to players

(acQu) #66

[QUOTE=FireWater;471736]I am trying to have a discussion but we have to get through all of the “but cod is noob” posts first.

Now that I think we have, I think it’s safe to say that the lower Ttk in cod combined with fast and sometimes favorable spawning. Is largely attractive to players[/QUOTE]

Agree. Seeing the overall picture of xT currently, i think we should go to CoD TTK and weapon handling. That means: fast kills, 3 or 4 bodyshots, at max 2 hs. I don’t see the point in having a really slow movement system but a longer TTK. It should be all about: come, see, BOOOM, next! Rinse Repeat. That is the actual playstyle xT was designed for. SD just doesn’t know yet. It would give especially the combat experience in xT a much more rewarding experience. Weapins would finally feel right.

(stealth6) #67

[QUOTE=FireWater;471736]I am trying to have a discussion but we have to get through all of the “but cod is noob” posts first.

Now that I think we have, I think it’s safe to say that the lower Ttk in cod combined with fast and sometimes favorable spawning. Is largely attractive to players[/QUOTE]

Skill based matching making, that’s something I can get behind, but this…

[video=youtube_share;oAKG-kbKeIo]http://youtu.be/oAKG-kbKeIo[/video]

If this defines me as the “old guard” then so be it. This post just looks like troll bait to me.

(FireWater) #68

Well I was thinking perhaps 2 headshots, so your high skill people will be able to get those off in a straight fight vs people who aim for the body. Maybe like 6 bodyshots, so basically taking Half Life’s standard “headshots do 3x damage than body shots”, across all of their games (I think for the most part, I know Half Life and HL2, and counter strike as well, and maybe DoD?)

So even if a player gets a lucky headshot, they would have to land either 3 more body shots or another headshot to get the kill, and vs a skilled old school player, more often than not the old school player would win.

Just a thought, I think its worth testing, but then again, I may think I am getting hits with the hit registration beep and I am not, than this suggestion maybe moot.

(FireWater) #69

[QUOTE=stealth6;471751]Skill based matching making, that’s something I can get behind, but this…

[video=youtube_share;oAKG-kbKeIo]http://youtu.be/oAKG-kbKeIo[/video]

If this defines me as the “old guard” then so be it. This post just looks like troll bait to me.[/QUOTE]

I am having difficulty understanding your point. What exactly is the troll bait you see?

(Mustang) #70

I’d like to try it with 6 headshots for a kill.

(DarkangelUK) #71

2 headshots is a bit extreme for a game that requires one side to have to stand still at many areas to complete objectives, the game has enough of a meat grinder feeling as it is.

(BAMFana) #72

There’s plenty of guns with 2-3 hit kills in the game already. Even the piddly BBQ (the molotov firesupport) pistol kills in 3 headshots (40 damage per shot). The TTK is fine as it is.

(FireWater) #73

That could very well be, however until its tested it will be difficult to know. I think its worth a try.

(acQu) #74

[QUOTE=stealth6;471751]Skill based matching making, that’s something I can get behind, but this…

[video=youtube_share;oAKG-kbKeIo]http://youtu.be/oAKG-kbKeIo[/video]

If this defines me as the “old guard” then so be it. This post just looks like troll bait to me.[/QUOTE]

Sorry xD But … no. I would give up that esports title dreams already and make the game a noob playground and finally give those audience which seems so impatient their stuff. One simply has to finally realize: if the maps and the movement stay like this, then please make the weapons like CoD, make them exactly like CoD. It is a missing puzzle which has to be added to the overall “already CoD game”. It makes no sense at all to have this high TTK with that movement. Make the movement slower instead, … exactly like the russian version is now doing. And make weapons more accurate. That in turn makes TTK lower. Maybe then, after these changes, increase bodyshot damage.

And yes, i am so sorry to go full retard, but if SD refuses to give us side routes and side strafe and a bit of advanced movement, then so be it a CoD MMS shooter. Why the hell not? I would greatly appreciate it. It is what the game was designed to be from the start, no? The basic thought was: damn, those CoD dev guys, making aloooot of money … oh dammit … i think we should just make a game like CoD, but with ET objectives. And in fact, that is what it turns out to be. Throw away the ET TTK therefore, make weapons more accurate, and work on TTK again = at least the shooting will feel right, if you refuse to implement the appropriate movement system alongside your TTK decission. Am i not right or what :slight_smile: I am so sorry to sound so arrogant now, but im right lol You have to fin decide now. Don’t do these weird mixtures aka ET TTK + turtle movement, please … kills the crowd. If we “old guards” (and i count myself as that i guess, favouring W:ET playstyle) can’t have a nice game, then at least let SD finally make a game to attract the CoD and MMS players … i think we are in the way pretty much of this, that is also why i think us “old guards” should not be asked for things we like. We have to adapt now, and finally let SD make their CoD game, no? :slight_smile:

(Hundopercent) #75

When I read this I envisioned myself punching a mustang right in the center of its chest. Hah. You can’t be serious. This game would have 0 population as most modern gamers would not tolerate such a long TTK.

(Mustang) #76

Of course I’m not serious… but then neither are these guys.

Make the movement slower, make the kills faster… wtf is this crap!?!

I don’t support SD for this…

(acQu) #77

[QUOTE=Mustang;471766]Of course I’m not serious… but then neither are these guys.

Make the movement slower, make the kills faster… wtf is this crap!?!

I don’t support SD for this…[/QUOTE]

It is the only solution. Either that, or you open up the movement and the maps!

(INF3RN0) #78

I’d rather have the longer TTK come from a drastically lower standard for the rate of fire. My biggest gripe with the weapons is really just that the RoF should have been a lot lower, and then damage could have been easily increased. It would have made the skill gap bigger and newbies would still be able to get kills as well. Oh well.

(acQu) #79

Would be very interesting to play the Russian version now. I think they are somewhat on a right track there; depends how you view it i guess.

Lowering RoF is also what i would have done a long time ago already. Makes the weapons feel better.

(FireWater) #80

perhaps overall lowering RoF maybe an improvment. Just out of curiosity, why is the russian version of XT a different style of XT than the version we are playing?