Musings on basic character development issues

[Ragoo]

You don’t have to grind XP. The game will reward you for doing things you should be doing anyway.

Yes, but say my first character is level 20 has high level abilities for medic and engi. Now I would want to try a character with high level abilites for operative and engi. I have to sit down and grind XP until my second character is level 20.

[Bridger]

If medic is not your specialized player, regardless if you can transfer abilities in match or not… you’re still going to be ineffective in that role as you don’t know have experience or skill in it.

Honestly I would prefer that everybody be on a level playing field. When you play the game your skill improves. When you play a game like WoW, your skill improves until you get really good at hitting those same 4 or 5 buttons in a row and managing your mana. Once you hit that ceiling, your character gets better (with new gear/power) but your own skill stays the same. It’s a form of artificial skill growth that doesn’t sit right with me (but I still have a level 67 shaman…I’m weak!).

WoW Progression rewards time investment with artificial skill growth (along with actual skill growth). Games without leveling systems reward time investment by you actually getting better at the game. You don’t magically do more damage in Counter-Strike when you’ve put in 30 hours. After putting in that time your muscle memory gets better, your aim get’s steadier, and you know when NOT to stick your head around that corner. That’s a form of intrinsic skill progression that I prefer to the artificial extrinsic skill progression involved in leveling systems.

I do appreciate that some games can be a bit overwhelming and an unlock system to let you get used to things over time is a good way to ease people into the game instead of throwing them in.

However, once I unlock everything, I want to go into a game knowing I’m on a level playing field with everyone else. Choosing a playstyle and/or 2 classes to play before even stepping into the game and figuring out what map I’m on can lead to some less-than-optimal choices. This blind choice can also lead to perfectly optimal choices, and if one side just happens to get an optimal mix and the other side gets a sub-optimal mix based on this blind choice, then I am not on a level playing field at the start of the game.

That’s all this is about, a level playing field. Having access to all the same unlocks is not the issue. Picking those unlocks blindly is the issue.

Are you expecting that abilities are going to help you play better as a person? The class abilities are designed to help cater to your play style, if you don’t play medic, then there’s nothing to cater to. Will you even know how to make good use of those abilities and apply them effectively if you don’t know the role to begin with?

I’ve sunk almost 200 hours into TF2, I know how to play 3 or 4 classes very well, and another 3 classes I’m average with. I’m sure I’ll be able to approach mastery of 4 classes in much less time. I would prefer to switch classes multiple times per match based on what the team needs, therefore I’d get experience in all of them as I play. You seem to imply that Brink should be played as a single class or two and not play the others? I’m not sure why you think I wouldn’t know the role or why I wouldn’t play medic. I want to play all the classes every game, whatever the team needs. This system disincentivises that by forcing you to play vanilla version of the classes you didn’t put points into.

I do, however, see your argument. How can anyone get used to playing that role when the situation will deter them from switching, “well I don’t know the role, and I don’t even have abilities to even help me a little… bollocks to it, i’ll stay engi”. I still think it’s up to the player in the end however. Regardless of my preferred class in ETQW, if the objective required a different class then I switched, even if I had already maxed out the class I started with. When trying to win the match, I go with necessity instead of preference.

I will do the same. I have no idea how this game will be played in the comp community. I’m hoping we can figure out some way to make the ability system work without modding the game. Unless there is something in there from SD, however, the only way will be to play characters with no perks in order to keep the playing field level

[Bridger]

Yes, but say my first character is level 20 has high level abilities for medic and engi. Now I would want to try a character with high level abilites for operative and engi. I have to sit down and grind XP until my second character is level 20.

It’s essentially a time penalty. The time you spend grinding is not wasted, per-se, since you don’t need the high level perks to play the game and enjoy it. Yet when you decide “I want to play the other guys now” the game basically says “nope, you can’t have that until you play for another 20 hours (random made up number), but I will dole out some of the stuff as you go…”

It all comes back to that artificial skill progression. If it doles out a new level/ability at the end of every game, that will work. You get a new ability, you spend a game trying it out, then you get another new one, and try that one out. But if it takes 20 games to get from level 19 to 20 I’m no longer on board. I don’t need 20 games to practice my new ability.

[Weeohhweeohh]

You don’t magically do more damage in Counter-Strike when you’ve put in 30 hours. (

In 30 hours you didn’t get better at putting bullets into someones brain cage? If I can remember correctly, that does more damage. Magically delicious damage.

[Senethro]

In 30 hours you didn’t get better at putting bullets into someones brain cage? If I can remember correctly, that does more damage. Magically delicious damage.

Doing 30 hours of everything usually increases skill at it but some of us think that two players of even skill should have an even chance instead of one having advantages because he can play more days of the week.

[Weeohhweeohh]

Doing 30 hours of everything usually increases skill at it but some of us think that two players of even skill should have an even chance instead of one having advantages because he can play more days of the week.

You have a strong sense of entitlement don’t you.

[JeP]

As it been said, it’s no really advantages but other options, and as for the weapons they’re balanced, having it all is just being able to customize your game to your preferences.

And MP-FPS that has things to unlock rarely require 50 hours from you to unlock all its content.

Brink is mostly about fun, not about one nolife being able to crush a more skilled player cause he have the nuclear bomb.

[Senethro]

You have a strong sense of entitlement don’t you.

Yes, it is highly entitled of me to think players should have something approaching an even chance.

[Mad_Hatter]

Practicing and becoming better at a game requires an investment of both time and effort. Some people have more of one than the other. I see no reason why someone who has put a hundred hours into a game can’t have something that is unavailable to someone who has only put ten hours into the game.

All within reason of course. It’s good to reward people, but balance must be maintained.

But anyway, what’s all this about uneven chances? The only skill I’ve seen that would really offer a substantial advantage in a direct confrontation is the Battle Hardened skill (increase life meter by one pip), and that one is available right in the beginning.

EDIT: Hold up, an Engineer with Weapon Buff 2 would have a small advantage over an Engineer with Weapon Buff 1 in a head-on fight. But again, the matchmaking is ranked so that everyone is nearly equal in level.

[Weeohhweeohh]

Yes, it is highly entitled of me to think players should have something approaching an even chance.

Then we are in agreement.

[Herandar]

This is an excellent way to concede the point. If you cannot provide it in your next post I will accept your concession.

I accept your concession, Bridger,

In a discussion you are not allowed to just ignore questions asked of you. I’m going to call you out on it. It makes you look like you cannot actually answer.

Nice discussing with you. Thank you for the win.

[Linsolv]

Yes, it is highly entitled of me to think players should have something approaching an even chance.

Luckily, when you’re only level 3, you will only be playing with other characters that are levels 1-5. So the playing field is even.

[Whydmer]

I know that this pleasant “conversation” has died out a bit, and please forgive me I’ve been working the past few nights and have not had the energy to truly contribute to this up until now so I will put my own two cents in.

There is a difference between restrictions and restrictive. As I am sure Bridger could tell us aout game theory and design, any game needs structure, rules, limitations, restrictions if you will. American Football limits you to 4 tries to move the ball 10 yards, it would be a different game if the offense had unlimited tries. Real Football (or futbol) limits you to not touching the ball with your hands and arms, and you can’t pass the ball to someone who is behind the final defender, it would certainly be a different game if those restrictions weren’t there. (Of course Americans might like more then but that is certainly another argument).
BFBC2 has restrictions on what your classes can do, and there is never a time that one type of class is required to win the game. If in COD I could have Attack Chopper has my kill streak reward for two kills I would do so much better… So there are restrictions in games everywhere. It comes down to which restrictions impact us, the gamers, in a meaningful way.

To me the limitation of not being able to bring in a super soldier, the ultimate engineer, The Buckeroo Banzai of Medics, An operative with the initials J.B. (James Bond, Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne to name the top three) is a restriction that creates dramatic tension throughout the gaming process with Brink. So even when I am creating my character and playing the game outside of a match I need to be weighing my decisions carefully. I like that. To me that does not [i]feel[/] restrictive. It makes the game more interesting. It is a subjectively better design choice for the gaming mood I am in at this time.

When I want to play “limitless” TDM, and be able to swap one of my 9 possible soldier templates (I am not maxed out at all in COD) that are configured with up to 3 choices each of what 15 perks, many of which suck. Templates where I had to choose what 2 guns I will use with each before the game, guns that can have one attachment each, unless I choose the Warlord perk then I can have 2!. Hmmm I guess there are quite a few restrictions there. But when I want to play that sort of game, I can. I have the luxury of that choice.

So Bridger et al. I know that you are excited to play Brink, probably as excited I as I am, maybe with a few more reservations and fears, but either way I hope the game surpasses your expectations. (I am not sure if I hope it surpasses mine because really that could be career or marriage threatening, and it would certainly be sleep depriving). I hope that you truly enjoy the Brink gaming process, and I eagerly look forward to your commentary (I may not be here to read it until a few weeks after launch…) And unfortunately it will be sometime until I will see you in a PC game, but I look forward to that day to.

[Mr.Fozzie]

Whydmer sums up my thoughts quite nicely.

The system [to me] is not nearly as restrictive as certain people seem to make it out to be. I’m intrigued by all the possibilities that will be laid out before me, and that i’ll have to consciously plan ahead for the character i’d like to build.

Besides, most of the people here are probably going to drop a couple hundred hours into the game anyway, so let’s throw that ‘grind’ word out the window shall we? Killing people is fun; you know damn well it is

[Bridger]

To me the limitation of not being able to bring in a super soldier, the ultimate engineer, The Buckeroo Banzai of Medics, An operative with the initials J.B. (James Bond, Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne to name the top three) is a restriction that creates dramatic tension throughout the gaming process with Brink.

This makes sense, and I wouldn’t mind the restriction as long as I don’t have to make my choice blind. Even if it lets me choose my character in a 30 second window at the start of the game, at least I can adapt to the map/team and stay that character the whole game. To me this would preserve the dramatic tension you speak of whilst still providing the players with the ability to come up with a reasonably balanced team for the map.

So Bridger et al. I know that you are excited to play Brink, probably as excited I as I am, maybe with a few more reservations and fears, but either way I hope the game surpasses your expectations. (I am not sure if I hope it surpasses mine because really that could be career or marriage threatening, and it would certainly be sleep depriving). I hope that you truly enjoy the Brink gaming process, and I eagerly look forward to your commentary (I may not be here to read it until a few weeks after launch…) And unfortunately it will be sometime until I will see you in a PC game, but I look forward to that day to.

I also hope it surpasses my expectations. I fully expect the reservations I mentioned in this thread to be a minor setback that will only bother me a little bit, but will not be enough to distract from that awesome which is Brink.

[Whydmer]

[QUOTE=Bridger;274678]This makes sense, and I wouldn’t mind the restriction as long as I don’t have to make my choice blind. Even if it lets me choose my character in a 30 second window at the start of the game, at least I can adapt to the map/team and stay that character the whole game. To me this would preserve the dramatic tension you speak of whilst still providing the players with the ability to come up with a reasonably balanced team for the map.

I also hope it surpasses my expectations. I fully expect the reservations I mentioned in this thread to be a minor setback that will only bother me a little bit, but will not be enough to distract from that awesome which is Brink.[/QUOTE]

I started another thread just to ask the question, and Maawdawg appeared to confirm what I expected:

Body size is in the selection menu with other character customizations like weapon customizations, preferred class, and clothing customization. Once you select it for that character it will stay the same until you change it, just like your outfit or weapon part choices. At least that is how it was at PAX.

During the demo the mission was already selected and we were already assigned a side, but before you launched in you could mess around in the customization at will, to change body type and customize the other stuff like clothes and weapon mods. Once you launched into the game all that stuff was all locked and you just could change selected weapons or class at the command posts. I don’t know if that is going to be how it works at release but I would think it makes the most sense to do it that way, to be able to customize body size, class, and loadout after you know the map and what side you are on.

You do spawn in right next to one so you could change weapons or class instantly if you wanted.

(bolding is mine)

So it looks like you will know your map, mission, side before you commit. The main issue being here is if you are with 7 strangers and you all see that "Oh this is the mission that having a medic or an operative is crucial you still may have 8 intelligent players selecting the same classes. (unless of course you have some metathinkers that specifically take the off classes so that they will be able to contribute from that direction.)

As I said that is the stuff that I love. (good thing too, since I still have crappy aim. )

[Ragoo]

´Would be really cool if you could choose a character and see what everyone else picks before the game starts like you can in like HoN or SC2 when creating a match

[Maawdawg]

I also don’t know if “preferred class”, as they had it listed, means you automatically get that class you choose. It seems if it was assured they would just have “select starting class”. It leads me to speculate that the game may balance teams a bit so you don’t end up with something like 7 medics and an engineer at the start. I know when I start a match I will hit the control point for a second to check team balance before running into the map.

[tokamak]

´Would be really cool if you could choose a character and see what everyone else picks before the game starts like you can in like HoN or SC2 when creating a match

That would greatly reduce the diversity of combinations that appear on average in matches. Games would therefore look more similar which would severely lower the replay value.

The whole point is that players adapt to rather than influence the given combination. That’s the extra layer of depth Brink has going for.

[Mr.Fozzie]

[QUOTE=tokamak;274863]That would greatly reduce the diversity of combinations that appear on average in matches. Games would therefore look more similar which would severely lower the replay value.

The whole point is that players adapt to rather than influence the given combination. That’s the extra layer of depth Brink has going for.[/QUOTE]

Agreed here.

The pick/counterpick of those games does add some strategic depth, but in the end it’s just a game of rock-paper-scissors.

Having to plan for every eventuality, without actually knowing what the enemy team will be throwing at you will make pre-match planning that much more meaningful, and interesting.