Medic Suggestions


(Humate) #41

I personally want players that have the capacity to beast with the medic class, to have that opportunity.
I’m not anti-rambo medic in the slightest, that was my main role in competitive play, in etqw.

The main issue for me is the average ttk, the high body damage and the inability to fight back on low HP levels.
Im used to ETQW promod, where you can beast 3 or 4 players in a row while on 20HP.
If this aspect of the game was applied to DirtyBomb, the need to gain a health advatange via pre-packing or packwhoring, would basically become redundant or would only serve players that struggle in combat.


(INF3RN0) #42

We would need an official stats dump from the devs to know the exact stats this patch, though they tend to force me to calculate it out myself. The weakest point in the Medic SMG is the fall-off imo. Close-mid and close range it out plays other weapons in a lot of cases from my experiences. The fall-off on it is pretty bad though, which ends up making all other weapons seem superior, but that higher RoF really makes it quite lethal up close and personal. If regen wasn’t so quick I think the Medic would become inherently stronger in attrition duels also; plus just an overall increase in Medic team value.

Lt rifle feels like the most sturdy ranged weapon. Soldier benefits from high body damage in general and huge ammo cap. Eng I haven’t played enough of recently to really comment on.

Depends on what kind of packs your talking about… I was responding specifically to the interrupted packing makes a medic “weak”, where in I think it only makes the pack reliant medic weak. Also as to the slower regen speeds for medics, it makes some sense to me as a medic has immediate access to packs where as other classes don’t. Of course with both of these mechanics in play the medic could use a little love on his fall-off damage, but that’s just what I personally view as the biggest problem with the SMG currently.


(Kendle) #43

As I started this thread I’ll chime in again, I’m not asking for Medics to be nerfed, I’m asking for revive to be buffed, partly by making it more obvious that a team-mate needs reviving (via HUD indicators) but mostly by making it less risky (via significantly increased revive shield).

Debating the merits of Medic as a support class or combat class is missing the point, currently Medics are not fulfilling their potential because they’re not using their most potent ability, which is to revive a dead team-mate, to bring an extra gun into play immediately rather than have to wait for it to re-spawn, to get the EV repaired right now rather than 20 / 30 / 40 seconds from now depending on how long the spawn wave is and how far the Engineer the Medic didn’t revive has to travel to get back to the damaged EV etc.

Please SD, give us better HUD indicators for Medic (and F/Ops) so they can see who needs what, and buff the revive mechanics so Medics can start reviving properly.


(tokamak) #44

I imagine a medic as some guy who’s 100% focussed on keeping his team up. This may involve 80% reviving and healing and 20% fending for himself or watching someone else’s back. This is how the ETQW medic feels like most of the time. The priority is the team but being able to draw out your weapon and fight when appropriate gives you more leverage in maintaining your team’s health.

This is opposed to say a soldier who’s supposed to be watching 80% over someone else’s back and 20% doing his own cute soldier stuff.

A medic class needs to be able to rely on the rest of his team for combat purposes and that’s why instant heals, revive shields and all the other stuff that he can bring to the team is way, way more important than the gun he’s holding.


(Hundopercent) #45

[QUOTE=tokamak;454574]I imagine a medic as some guy who’s 100% focussed on keeping his team up. This may involve 80% reviving and healing and 20% fending for himself or watching someone else’s back. This is how the ETQW medic feels like most of the time. The priority is the team but being able to draw out your weapon and fight when appropriate gives you more leverage in maintaining your team’s health.

This is opposed to say a soldier who’s supposed to be watching 80% over someone else’s back and 20% doing his own cute soldier stuff.

A medic class needs to be able to rely on the rest of his team for combat purposes and that’s why instant heals, revive shields and all the other stuff that he can bring to the team is way, way more important than the gun he’s holding.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a terrible TF2 medic. A medic should be able to handle himself with the ability to revive and heal effectively.

The medic you want will never exist in DB because of the way the health packs and revive work. You can’t heal during battle and you can’t revive during battle.

This isn’t ETQW just as it isn’t RtCW. Saying nerf medics because they don’t play the way you want them to in your mind, from a game you played 8 years ago or w/e, is a poor way to address a problem. Which honestly, medics weren’t even that much of a problem. It was players that were the issue.

I completed multiple games today where medics were scarce, if even played, and on top of that those medics rarely even revived anyway. So the nerf to medics, based off inflated stats, suggestions from below average players, and/or whatever other reason has created an environment I warned you guys about months ago. An environment where people just won’t play medics.

Without a slight weapon buff, strong changes to the revive mechanic (larger revive area, stronger revive buff.) I don’t see people playing medics that often in the games current state.


(prophett) #46

[QUOTE=strychzilla;454626]has created an environment I warned you guys about months ago. An environment where people just won’t play medics.

Without a slight weapon buff, strong changes to the revive mechanic (larger revive area, stronger revive buff.) I don’t see people playing medics that often in the games current state.[/QUOTE]

I would say I have only played medic around 5% of the time in the past 2 months for some of those reasons :expressionless:


(BomBaKlaK) #47

This is just boring to play medic now … revive mechanic delay, no shield, and weak weapon …
There is no more revives or just a few times cause you are in a cover, but revive and heal in fight don’t even think about it ! Since the beginning you are nerfing the medic.

If nothing is done then Medic will be the most useless class in the game …
TF2 medic like is just boring as hell !


(Kendle) #48

I don’t think the Medic has been nerfed too much, “not being the strongest class” isn’t the same thing as “being the weakest class”. The Medic’s SMG is good at close quarters due to it’s ROF, so to all intents and purposes the Medic is as combat effective as a Medic needs to be. What he’s really bad at is the class abilities he’s supposed to bring to the team, packs that don’t immediately heal, and a revive ability that’s next to worthless.

I won’t cry if the “leet aimers” go play F/Ops / Soldier instead if they feel they can’t “pwn noobs” as Medic anymore, but what I will cry about is if people who want to play Medic as a support class (like I used to) can’t because his support functions are pants.


(Volcano) #49

something that ****s me to tears with the medic is when you go to revive someone but it doesn’t work despite being clearly on them


(INF3RN0) #50

I seem to be unrevivable for some reason. When I do get a revive I see them paddling the ground 5ft away from me lol.


(Hundopercent) #51

[QUOTE=Kendle;454658]I don’t think the Medic has been nerfed too much, “not being the strongest class” isn’t the same thing as “being the weakest class”. The Medic’s SMG is good at close quarters due to it’s ROF, so to all intents and purposes the Medic is as combat effective as a Medic needs to be. What he’s really bad at is the class abilities he’s supposed to bring to the team, packs that don’t immediately heal, and a revive ability that’s next to worthless.

I won’t cry if the “leet aimers” go play F/Ops / Soldier instead if they feel they can’t “pwn noobs” as Medic anymore, but what I will cry about is if people who want to play Medic as a support class (like I used to) can’t because his support functions are pants.[/QUOTE]

They weren’t the strongest class. That’s a false impression this community has because of previous games. Before this patch medics were, at best, playable. I say at best because their packs are trash with all the spam, mind you not all the spam is even in the game yet, and the revive range + shield are worthless. The reason medics were so often played is because objectives are a battle of attrition turning every round into a TDM until someone completes the objective. Medics are…were… the best class at TDM because they could heal themselves after a fight. The key to this working is being able to out aim your opponents since the medic, combat wise, was already the weakest. If you couldn’t do that you were better off playing an Lt. or Sold.

At this point, since they’re using stats and below average players to make their class balance decisions I won’t blame people for not playing their preferred class. I will rarely play a medic now in fear that if I frag too many people in a short time frame or have too high of an accuracy that my preferred class will get nerfed. I feel using stats etc is a poor approach with DBs current population.

They were better off having medics spawn with 1 clip than to nerf the only thing they had going for them, self heal.


(Kendle) #52

That’s not entirely true. When I joined the Alpha (I guess I was one of the first to pay for access) Medic was very much the preferred combat class and servers were very much overly full of them, and IMO that was down to the ammo drop feature that’s since been removed.

Again I can’t agree on this. Whilst not many of us are as good as you, I suspect most of us are “above average” compared to the kind of people that will end up playing this game. The game should be balanced for the average pub noob, because they’re going to be the majority.

What probably does skew the stats however is the severely limited number of people playing, not the quality of people playing.

I do agree with this. Now other changes have been made to balance the classes (spread / recoil / ammo count etc. have all been changed since the Med pack was first nerfed) it may now be time to restore the Med pack to it’s more useful instant heal version.


(BomBaKlaK) #53

I have a dream !


(Humate) #54

They weren’t the strongest class. That’s a false impression this community has because of previous games.

Agree with this. Players are conditioned to play it as a go-to frag class, until they draw the conclusion they are shooting a can of spray paint.

At this point, since they’re using stats and below average players …

I kind of agree with this…
Having stats that basically let SD know what the skill floor is for each weapon is pretty valuable.

They were better off having medics spawn with 1 clip than to nerf the only thing they had going for them, self heal.

They are better off making combat more skill-based, so that medics dont feel the need to always play defensive and packwhore.


(Hundopercent) #55

Initially, yes, you are correct, medics were strong but that was for multiple reasons. The knife was retarded, the health packs were solid, the drop off was farther, and the weapons weren’t tweaked, ammo dropped from bodies etc. It was a multitude of things. I’m not saying medics were not OP at some point, but they definitely were not in the last few months after the med pack nerf.

If anyone is taking that as an insult it is not. I’m not really sure how you phrase that without sounding like an asshole and I don’t have the patience to candy coat or think about it. Yes, some players are above average, some are below, however, there are also a slew of players that are not even playing and saying the medic is OP, guns are garbage etc. How can they make these claims when they’re putting no time into the game to even get a feel for it? Yet these people are affecting decisions made.

You’re absolutely right that this game should be balanced for the average pub player, the thing is, the average pub player is a minority right now. So balancing it off stats from people like Me, Evil, Image, Kordrin etc. is not right direction. It’s going to make it painfully difficult for average players to enjoy a class that’s been fine tuned to players of a much higher skill level because we are the ones using the medic…

I believe me and you are on the same page here. I agree with pretty much every post you put up. The difference is I do not possess the written skills you and Image have to make what I type a silky delight to everyone’s eyes.

I do agree with this. Now other changes have been made to balance the classes (spread / recoil / ammo count etc. have all been changed since the Med pack was first nerfed) it may now be time to restore the Med pack to it’s more useful instant heal version.


(tokamak) #56

And go beyond that. Heal bonuses for healing and reviving others.


(INF3RN0) #57

The loss of instant healing packs was the inability to heal teammates in a push. The entire technique of the self healing medic was developed by players to gain pure base advantage in a duel. You drop packs all over the floor and now are able to absorb twice as much damage. I have a very hard time deciding whether it was actually dynamism to the class or if it was simply something everyone did so no one complained.

There are lots of different variables that effect each class, however in the medic’s case it comes down entirely to how people prefer to play it. If we were to go back to instant heal packs for example I would expect something to balance that out. The question here is “are instant healing packs necessary to play medic or bring value to the team?” The two things that I think are limiting that potential are regen and revives. The old play style of medic isn’t going to work out as well, but I don’t necessarily think that’s a problem with the game. If the purpose of the medic was to revive anytime and resupply between damage, then that brings quite a lot of worth, but inability to successfully pull of a revive or auto regen doing the job of healing results in diminishing the worth of the class.

If the goal is to always win a 1v1 that’s really a selfish demand or expectation. An engineer for example has a turret, and he positions his turret to help him win 1v1s. A medic has health packs so he puts out damage, runs away for a moment and heals some hp and then returns to finish the frag. A soldier can inhibit your aim with special nades and kill large groups with a large ammo clip size. A fops has aoe damage and infinite ammo. Recon has radar. These certain advantages make you expect 1v1s to go any direction depending on how a player uses their tools and aims in unison. Shouldn’t there be a balance between the advantage of a tool and the efficiency of a weapon? Right now I would say there are obvious things that could use more extensive testing, but I do consider it much more progressed than in the past. I have seen every class kill every class, though some people do much better with certain classes simply because they don’t require you to rely on their tools as much to attain success.

Then there’s the overall RoF/damage mechanics, regen, etc. There’s player ability, pubs are sometimes stacked, some classes are more effective cooperatively, some classes seem better in pubs, etc. All of these factors influence outcomes so it makes it insanely hard to make a judgment sometimes.


(Hundopercent) #58

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;454734]The loss of instant healing packs was the inability to heal teammates in a push. The entire technique of the self healing medic was developed by players to gain pure base advantage in a duel. You drop packs all over the floor and now are able to absorb twice as much damage. I have a very hard time deciding whether it was actually dynamism to the class or if it was simply something everyone did so no one complained.

There are lots of different variables that effect each class, however in the medic’s case it comes down entirely to how people prefer to play it. If we were to go back to instant heal packs for example I would expect something to balance that out. The question here is “are instant healing packs necessary to play medic or bring value to the team?” The two things that I think are limiting that potential are regen and revives. The old play style of medic isn’t going to work out as well, but I don’t necessarily think that’s a problem with the game. If the purpose of the medic was to revive anytime and resupply between damage, then that brings quite a lot of worth, but inability to successfully pull of a revive or auto regen doing the job of healing results in diminishing the worth of the class.

If the goal is to always win a 1v1 that’s really a selfish demand or expectation. An engineer for example has a turret, and he positions his turret to help him win 1v1s. A medic has health packs so he puts out damage, runs away for a moment and heals some hp and then returns to finish the frag. A soldier can inhibit your aim with special nades and kill large groups with a large ammo clip size. A fops has aoe damage and infinite ammo. Recon has radar. These certain advantages make you expect 1v1s to go any direction depending on how a player uses their tools and aims in unison. Shouldn’t there be a balance between the advantage of a tool and the efficiency of a weapon? Right now I would say there are obvious things that could use more extensive testing, but I do consider it much more progressed than in the past. I have seen every class kill every class, though some people do much better with certain classes simply because they don’t require you to rely on their tools as much to attain success.

Then there’s the overall RoF/damage mechanics, regen, etc. There’s player ability, pubs are sometimes stacked, some classes are more effective cooperatively, some classes seem better in pubs, etc. All of these factors influence outcomes so it makes it insanely hard to make a judgment sometimes.[/QUOTE]

The goal isn’t to win every single 1v1. It’s to be on a balanced playing field for those 1v1’s so in an even fight you win out 50% of the time. Some of your references don’t really make sense, like the FOPS. He isn’t AoE damage, he’s area denial giving you a form of map control. I never see or expect to see a FOPS using his abilities to duel someone.


(INF3RN0) #59

The examples aren’t specifically how it works currently, but how it ought to work. The FOPS for example has nothing but his gun to win a duel or anything really, but if his air strikes/artillery actually did some damage he would be one of the most situationally lethal classes. The problem is his air strike is “gimmicky” and is not useable in most situations, but if it weren’t so gimmicky then perhaps he wouldn’t need more powerful weaponry to output damage. Same goes for the Recon. The soldier on the other hand originally was extremely strong because of his special nade spam, which then got nerfed, and now is useful again. Why he does more damage than anyone else is beyond me considering he already has more ammo in a clip, higher hp (which is slowed speed does help counter), more grenades, and useful special nades.

It’s a matter of making all the special killing abilities worthwhile and useable in duels firstly and then dealing with the weapon after. If a certain ability is so strong that the only option is to weaken the weapon, then you end up changing the ability mechanics like the medpack. Basically what I want to see is not what we currently have, though I am hopeful it will improve. I want to see fairly equal killing potential among all classes when they are played in unison with their abilities, which would come once the ability and weaponry is equalized for each class so that a combination of both intelligent play and aiming decide who wins. That won’t happen until all classes have equally useful killing and support abilities to work with.

Anyways time to get some more beer and blow stuff up :).


(tokamak) #60

I truly tried to follow the past couple of posts but I really lost track of what you two are disagreeing on.