Mapping contest by et-scene.de

(Ifurita) #41

Sounds like WPL is about the only league doing that then

(CyburK) #42

well every mapper likes it when his map gets played often. may it be in a “official” league or in public.

but in my point of view the “pro-gamers” or what you may call them dont keep a game alive. the public players do, the public is where the progamers come from. see alcoholics are not the motivation for the average weekend drinker :wink:
make a map that the public likes (very) and it will be played in competition sooner or later.

the progamers or competetive gamers just dont need that much maps - they need a good game concept and fighting ground. they play the game for other reasons than me. look at professional sport, do they have different football fields ? no, they just need some rules that make sure the game is “fair”.for them its about the reaction, tactic and teamplay not the nice trip into some cool north african city (in the first case). thats why even if there are a thousand good maps for CS on the servers its 80% dust 1 and 2.

maybe this doesnt fit that much into the topic but i just had to say. :blah:

greetings

cyburk

:drink:

P.S. i think a contest is a nice thing but maybe just make it a simple mapping contest with some cool price. how about the winner gets a weekend with helga on castle wolfenstein ^^

(Ifurita) #43

Actually, I respectfully disagree with that. A good pub map doesn’t necessarily equate to a good comp map.

  1. Pub players tend to handle complex mission objectives much better. Game mechanics like random objective placement play well with with pubbers where as in the comp setting, the map isn’t the same level playing ground every time.
  2. Pub servers tend to play larger teams than the 6 v 6 for comp. This means that a map that fits a pub server just right, may be too larger for a good comp map and visa versa
  3. IMO, most pub servers tend to play campaigns vs stopwatch. For campaign, you typically want a map that lasts the full time and results in a 50/50 split in wins. In stopwatch, you want the attackers to win, so that you can set times.
  4. Comp maps tend to tend towards map times of 10-15 minutes where as pubs are just as happy when the run the full 30+ minutes.
  5. Comp maps need more tweaking because a team is more able to take advantage of small map imbalances/loopholes. Pubbers can exploit map imbalances, but not nearly as effectively as a team which practices and trains together.
  6. Ultimately, I think a pub player’s bar for what is “fun” is much lower than a comp player’s and I mean that in the most complimentary terms. Pubbers are happy to try out new maps, try new game mechanics, ride the tank, etc. Clanners keep looking for the same map, that is just like Supply Depot, and not surprisingly keep returning to Supply Depot when new maps don’t match up.

Overall, IMO, mapping for pubbers is a hobby. Mapping for clanners is a job.

(DerSaidin) #44

I’m making a competition map called adlernest which I intend on entering in this competition.
I dont realy want any of the prizes, I have nfi what a bnc is.

To me the prize is getting my map included in a league. Because that will help it get off the ground. In my experience so far, this is the hardest thing. Because players and leagues dismiss maps before they get to know them.

Because I’m an active person in the Australian community, I was able to gather teams of sluts to test it on each beta. And as it progressed, I was able to get the support of clans to scrim on it. At first they didnt like it much, but we persisted. As we played it more, everyone got to know it, and most of them liked it.
From there, I LISTENED to their feedback, and included them in the readme. Since those tests, each new version has basicly just been improving it to what towards what they suggest.

Finally my map has been included in 2 ET competions running in Australia/New Zealand: GameArena (6v6, season hasnt started yet), and Austouny (3v3).
In the Austourny, Adlernest was the round 1 map. Everyone played it. To their surprise almost everyone enjoyed it.

I THINK that the reason that I’ve managed to get this far, is by practicly forcing into the community. Hunting down clans and getting them to scrim on it… gathering random teams and getting them to play it. All this, and I’ve managed to get them to include it in the competitions.

As Ifurita said, there are a lot of matches played on the same few maps. But there are also clans who branch out onto new maps. I’m hoping that since being included people will experiment with it and it’lll become popular.

My point is that its difficult to promote a new map and get it into circulation. Harder then making it even <_<

Anyone know what supply did here? >_>

(DAbell) #45

Codename Ty i’m interested to see that you mention the use of my map St Nazaire, having got no real feedback on my map and only getting the opportunity to play it online once or twice i’m glad to see that someone is playing it.

Sorry to interupt the thread but i had to express my thanks of some recognition for my map.

Maybe i could get to play it again someday. :nag:

Happy Friday 13th, stay lucky

<DJ>

(nUllSkillZ) #46

Have only a news from a german website:
The contest now lasts untill 10.4.2006.

Source:
“Get The Map - The ET-Scene Map”-news @ level-designer.de

(]UBC[ McNite) #47

We have over 200 maps reviewed within our forums

Give a link? I d be very interested in reading some reviews. Maybe i could get valuable information for designing my upcoming map?

Maybe one thing more… saying that u don’t know where Ifurita comes from really doesn’t add to your reputation Ty. Seriously.

(nUllSkillZ) #48

There’s a post in the et-scene.de forum that surprises (?) me:

Translated:

We now have the official permission to change maps like “la rochelle”, “dubrovnik” or reactor".

Source:
http://forum.et-scene.de/showthread.php?t=8973&page=3

(Ifurita) #49

Actually, I’ve posted the source files for all of my maps, except for Breakout (since it isn’t my map), and if people want to tweak maps to play better, I’m fine with that. We exchanged a couple of PMs about that – it’s all above board.

(]UBC[ McNite) #50

Just to prevent ppl going crazy with modifying maps I think it would be a very good idea to actually list the maps free for that.
Not that i see much sense in opening this pandora’s box… its bad enough we have dozens of GR versions already. And it surely isn’t leading to more support for development and testing of new ideas/ maps.

(Gringo) #51

I dont know a thing about mappin, only know two fello clan members who have made small maps(for fun) and it aint an easy process. I just want to say that Ifurita and EB (in my limited experience) seem like two dead on peeps’. I dont think any abuse should be directed at either o them. And i don think ranting at them validates any persons point.

We all have different views about things which doesnt give u a reason to slag peeps off.

/End of diplomat mode

(I think this is the first sensible thing i have posted on the SD forum and i am tipsy)
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

(Codename Ty) #52

]UBC[ McNite

Joined: Apr 05, 2004
Posts: 698
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posted: Jan 13, 2006 - 02:28 PM

Quote:
We have over 200 maps reviewed within our forums

Give a link? I d be very interested in reading some reviews. Maybe i could get valuable information for designing my upcoming map?

Maybe one thing more… saying that u don’t know where Ifurita comes from really doesn’t add to your reputation Ty. Seriously.

Some of you really need to learn how to read better, before responding, seriously. How many times do I have to say that I have been playing customs for two seasons in three leagues? That is what I was referring to where I didn’t know where Ifurita is coming from, especially when he mentions SW Goldrush TE and SW Siwa Oasis_b3, cause we’ve been playing both of those maps in both WPL and TWL so. I know what maps he’s made, I’ve played them all and been to his site. My favorite, is the conversion of Menzel’s map, Normandy Breakout.

I don’t know where the complaining is coming from (saying that they aren’t being played?). Do you understand now? Have I made it clear? Euro Leagues or Aussie Leagues are one thing, I haven’t participated in any. North American leagues are a totally different animal. The community, if it’s actually interested in getting it’s maps played, might want to check out the N.A. leagues more closely.

The reviews are in private forums, not open to the public. I’ll talk it over with a couple people if you are genuinely interested and see about you getting access/info being made available to you. Feel free to send me a PM with contact info.

So to close, before jumping all over someone, actually read the posts in their entirety and understand where they are coming from, cause obviously that hasn’t been happening. Ranting and flaming someone for no apparent reason and then acting like a kindergardener and claiming they started it, along with sending vile PM’s when they put you in your place, doesn’t do wonders for anybody’s credibility, regardless of the party.

(Codename Ty) #53

DAbell

Joined: Sep 18, 2003
Posts: 124

 Posted: Jan 13, 2006 - 08:21 AM

Codename Ty i’m interested to see that you mention the use of my map St Nazaire, having got no real feedback on my map and only getting the opportunity to play it online once or twice i’m glad to see that someone is playing it.

Sorry to interupt the thread but i had to express my thanks of some recognition for my map.

Maybe i could get to play it again someday.

Happy Friday 13th, stay lucky

<DJ>

We’re happy to play it. The majority of the league loves the map and we’re going to be making a new rotation here on one of our servers, probably sometime this weekend and putting your map on for pub play as well. I’ll send you a PM once it’s up with the server IP and you can swing by anytime you like. You did a great job with it and if you have anything “in the works” right now, we would be happy to help with ideas and playtesting when you’re ready.

Feel free to drop me a PM here anytime and if you want to leave your contact info, that’s even better. Looking forward to more releases from you. It seems that there are very few affable people in the community right now, so no need to apologize for the post. We enjoy helping people get their maps out there and played and greatly appreciate that you stopped in this thread and took the time to thank us for it, if only more mappers were like you, the community would be much better off for it.

(EB) #54

There are several things wrong with this quote…
#1. you said you were done flaming me… doing it indirectly does not hide it
#2. you never put anyone in there place
#3. You must be reading my posts with anger in your head…I said everything calmly.(re-read my posts)
#4. No malicious PM’s were sent, read them again with validity…not anger.

Can you please leave the subject alone now, like you said you would yesterday ?

Edit:

You may have read the PM’s a half-hour later, but they were sent well before that time.

(Ifurita) #55

Just to prevent ppl going crazy with modifying maps I think it would be a very good idea to actually list the maps free for that.
Not that i see much sense in opening this pandora’s box… its bad enough we have dozens of GR versions already. And it surely isn’t leading to more support for development and testing of new ideas/ maps.

I’ve done a couple of league specific map mods already Dubrovnik_ETC and Rommel_GA so if they want to make small tweaks for their own leages, and manage the version control, I’m fine with that. Most people have been pretty good about asking if they can first, so it’s all good.

(Codename Ty) #56

EB:

Codename Ty wrote:

So to close, before jumping all over someone, actually read the posts in their entirety and understand where they are coming from, cause obviously that hasn’t been happening. Ranting and flaming someone for no apparent reason and then acting like a kindergardener and claiming they started it, along with sending vile PM’s when they put you in your place, doesn’t do wonders for anybody’s credibility, regardless of the party.

There are several things wrong with this quote…
#1. you said you were done flaming me… doing it indirectly does not hide it
#2. you never put anyone in there place
#3. You must be reading my posts with anger in your head…I said everything calmly.(re-read my posts)
#4. No malicious PM’s were sent, read them again with validity…not anger.

Can you please leave the subject alone now, like you said you would yesterday ?

Funny, saying that I suck and don’t have even 25% of the talent that you do doesn’t seem to be a mature or unmalicious PM to me. I posted here I was done with the conversation, you publically state the same, then 30 minutes later send me two nasty PM’s within a span of 15 minutes. I must have touched a nerve.

Give it a rest already and act like an adult.

P.S. All this started because you felt the need to flame me for our clan wanting some recognition in the readme or help with a project of ours after playtesting a single map for the better part of a month. No 30 min playtest. I guess we know who not to help next time, eh?

(Ifurita) #57

can we stop the e-slapping? It’s too bad xfire is having so many problems.

(]UBC[ McNite) #58

Don’t feed the troll is all i can say :bash:

(sol) #59

Firstly, good initiative from chosen and it’s nice that someone is trying to do something for the community. However, I think it might be somewhat naive considering there are probably more than a few customs maps suitable for competition already, and those which aren’t completley suitable (yet) probably would be with some minor tweaks.

In response to mappers who have tried getting feedback from the community. Firstly I’d like to point out that it really helps if you’re playing the game actively and on a high level, because then you know what works and what doesn’t (to an extent) which can save a lot of time. Secondly, I have seen first hand, Ifurita and McNite attempting to get feedback from the the community in various places, here, ETnation.co.uk, ET-center.com and xfire.be among others I’m sure, and while getting feedback is obviously a good idea, if you’re aiming to make a competitive map you should be a little more selective about those who you try to get feedback from. Many of the people who visit the websites I mentioned before are quite inexperienced and only play the game casually, and them giving their opinion can lead to conflicting interests. When McNite was promoting his “River 2” map I genuinely thought it was a public map so I didn’t comment with suggestions. I think if any mapper went to a ClanBase ET supervisor and said “I’m making a map for the competitive community…” I think the Supervisor would be able to arrange for all (or some) of the leaders of the EuroCup clans to participate with the whole procedure of building the map from start to finish. I know that probably sounds not only idealist but elitist, but since it’s most of the competitive community whining for new maps I can’t see why they wouldn’t be interested, also, I’d be very surprised if the ClanBase supervisors would turn down such an offer. It may sound elitist targetting only EuroCup players for feedback, but it is those players who have a firmer grasp of what is required in a competition map and there would be less conflicting interests. Asking (literally) the whole community for feedback is just asking for trouble, as those who play the game on different levels will want different things. In some cases mappers just get it right, even with little feedback from the community, eg. Supplydepot & Braundorf, unfortunatley that’s not always the case though.

A combination of some mappers simply not being competitive players on a high level and not being precise when looking for feedback results in the map being a mish mash of conflicting ideas and leads to disappointment on both the mapper and community side. I am not intending to knock anyone, I really appreciate that mappers are still mapping for this game, I’m just trying to provide some constructive criticism. Alternatively you could always ignore us ungrateful bastards and make maps for the public community who are more than happy to play whatever is thrown at them!

Having said all of that, I must refer back to my first point - there are probably more than a few suitable maps out there already that people simply aren’t willing to try out, which really is a shame. Introducing 2 new (by new I mean maps which haven’t been played before in competition, not necessarily new new) maps each season would keep things fresh. The NationsCup supervisors tried to introduce Railgun again, in the maplist, but they caved because of the whine, unfortunatley. Admins just need a little bit more balls, because people won’t back out of a competition such as EuroCup because of one or two maps which they don’t like.

(]UBC[ McNite) #60

Sol has a good point there, and I appreciate his post a lot.

I really agree on this: a mapper that doesnt play is not worth much. If a mapper plays on a decent level, its even better. I don’t think I d be able to put that much thought into designing the gameplay of my maps if I wasn’t playing a lot on servers with a good level of skill around, and play all classes too (well except covops).

As for the forums… its not as if I for example haven’t tried exactly that. Going to forums is the way you go when you don’t know the right person (in hope they ll contact you) or when the ppl you talked to weren’t much of a help (in my case).
I have to point out first that when posting for Redux I always made it clear its for SW and 6on6, and that I m willing to incorporate feedback for tweaking to 6on6.
Talking to scandinavian admins didn’t have any output (ok apart from one of them having tons of ideas for improvement without aparently having played one decent round on TheRiver II - sry dude, no offense meant; they ignored TheRiver II Redux completely).
GA: a bit of interest, rogue doing a good job with the pre-games (i even knocked off a tactical guide for them), only most of the testplayers were new on the map… led to massively uneven teams… no wonder that went wrong.
Posting at TWL ET forum didn’t give anything.
ETnation (UK) gave me some good input in the threads on some thoughts and also proved i had the right ideas about gameplay. I know some players of the UK really like Redux… only they r a minority and its hard even for them to get the rest of their clan interested.

Conclusion? Even with interested admins its very hard to acchieve something. Ok in my case I have 1 disadvantage: TheRiver II and the optimized version TheRiver II Redux are not easy to learn… it takes quite some games with players who know the map to get known to it and see the potential for real fast, tight and hot battles.
I once saw a knows UK comp player enter our server, and leave after 3 mins… he was in my fireteam, i did say v31 “follow me”, you could have a look at the command map… i really think that a huge part of the comp community doesnt have the needed cg_attentionspan or cg_openness. That s it.

Last thing on that: The often led discussion on spawntimes… River always had 15/20 Allies/Axis. You can bet your ass I ran all the ways myself several times taking the time to really make sure this is offense biased, for every stage of the map (even moved the first allied spawn in Redux 256 units to make sure). And did tactical maps with travetimes and travelroutes… still… something i heard too often is: whine “why not 20/30, or 15/25”. Why? I guess because 5 secs diff is too different from what they r used to.

And my real last sentence on this is: If they don’t care to try out FOR REAL, I don’t care to waste any time. I love mapping too much, so i rather put effort into a cool new map.