Map designs. Please o please could a dev explain the reasoning


(DarkangelUK) #101

The picture explains my feelings towards your attempt to grasp simple concepts exceptionally well. You don’t get it, you’ll never get it, I gave up on Wolf ever getting it ages ago (he just joins in cos he doesn’t want to feel left out when devs are speaking)… and now I’m giving up on you. You can try the ld reverse psychology thing all you want, but the fact it’s been dumbed down to the point of using pictures and simple phrasing and you’re STILL not grasping it means you never will.

“They’re different” lol


(Kurushi) #102

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;369325]The picture explains my feelings towards your attempt to grasp simple concepts exceptionally well. You don’t get it, you’ll never get it, I gave up on Wolf ever getting it ages ago (he just joins in cos he doesn’t want to feel left out when devs are speaking)… and now I’m giving up on you. You can try the ld reverse psychology thing all you want, but the fact it’s been dumbed down to the point of using pictures and simple phrasing and you’re STILL not grasping it means you never will.

“They’re different” lol[/QUOTE]

You can’t grasp Brink is a different game, that’s fine. Nothing you can do about that


(Nexolate) #103

Mate, it’s on the back of my mind every day. I pray to God they don’t f*** up the new Counter Strike or there’ll be nothing left of the good old days.

Regards,
Nexo


(tokamak) #104

In what way wouldn’t forward spawns suit Brink? And I mean, other than keeping the game simple enough my 6 year old nephew can be good at it.

They seem an focal part of ET to me. The little cat-mouse race between engineers and coverts in W:ET was hilarious and forward spawns could turn entire games on a dime if handled right in ETQW.


(morguen87) #105

[QUOTE=wolfnemesis75;369312]Yes and no. The average gamer want to play more than watch a respawn clock. Spawn time is an arbitrary system imposed after the fact (not the map design per se) and comes into play after you die. Distance to travel from point A to B is the map itself, no? Not Spawn Timer ultimately. Two different schools of thought/design here.

There is no perfect solution if the map itself is not symmetrical each time the defense and attacking team face off at an objective especially if you consider variables like different body type speeds and access to locations! You can’t make everyone happy in the scenario.

In summation: You are frustrated that the defense has the advantage. Right?
:)[/QUOTE]

The posts made by .Chris. were the best posts in the entire thread. Everyone here understands you like the game, but he makes valid points and suggestions that even fans of the game could listen to. It’s like you’re putting your fingers in your ears and just going “lalalalalala I can’t hear you lalalalalala”

Everyone keeps giving practical solutions that would make maps balanced without being symmetrical and you’re the one who keeps stubbornly going back to the symmetrical idea.

In summation: I guess I should add a nice passive aggressive shot in here like, “You are frustrated that the defense has the advantage. Right?” that doesn’t actually sum up my post at all.

edit: I want to clarify, I’m not saying you should or have to agree with him, but if at least understand what he’s saying before you decide to disagree. You’ve shown no grasp or understanding to what he’s talking about, yet have made up your mind you’re going to disagree.


(Thundermuffin) #106

I never said you can make everyone happy. Where the heck are you getting that from? It’s a basic thought that gameplay should come first. I give him respect for being open, but SD loses respect from me for not putting gameplay first always. Games can look pretty even when gameplay comes first, you just have to look at people like VALVe and other devs to see that.


(gooey79) #107

Is it fair to say the maps are (for the best part) actually pretty big?

Is it fair to say ‘small’ is an illusion caused by the forced cut-scenes in every single match?

Is it fair to say that each cut-scene actually hides a ‘forward spawning’ position that would probably have been capturable without the arbitrary ‘story telling’ attempt?


(Thundermuffin) #108

[QUOTE=*goo;369340]Is it fair to say the maps are (for the best part) actually pretty big?

Is it fair to say ‘small’ is an illusion caused by the forced cut-scenes in every single match?

Is it fair to say that each cut-scene actually hides a ‘forward spawning’ position that would probably have been capturable without the arbitrary ‘story telling’ attempt?[/QUOTE]

The maps are pretty big when looked at as a whole, but either a lot of area is useless (think outside area of Terminal) or it’s sectioned off like in Shipyard. That can work fine in some cases, like Salvage or Volcano in ET:QW but not when you have a small chunk of this map all the time.

Sometimes it is caused by the cut scenes, but a lot of the time its caused by the fact the rest of the map is useless. I haven’t really ever seen a team push up out of the hack room in Terminal, unless they’re trying to backrage. That’s a really pretty room with the modern art, but it’s pretty much just a way to make the run to the objective longer for the offense.

You could say that, but there’s also other areas that would benefit from these types of forward spawns and not just the areas where cut scenes take place. The sad thing is even if they took away the cut scenes and just put a capturable forward spawn, the defense probably wouldn’t be able to recapture it as that would be “too complex.”


(Kurushi) #109

[QUOTE=tokamak;369329]In what way wouldn’t forward spawns suit Brink? And I mean, other than keeping the game simple enough my 6 year old nephew can be good at it.

They seem an focal part of ET to me. The little cat-mouse race between engineers and coverts in W:ET was hilarious and forward spawns could turn entire games on a dime if handled right in ETQW.[/QUOTE]

I’ve already said I’d like captureable forward spawns in new maps. Addingthem to current maps wouldn’t make sense


(Kurushi) #110

Who said gameplay didn’t come first to SD? Just appreciate there is more than one factor involved


(Thundermuffin) #111

To me that means the people at their studio don’t believe that; otherwise he would have said “the bottom line is that not every consumer” to clarify that SD do believe gameplay comes first. He may agree, but he leads one to believe some at SD do not.

Why would I appreciate that there is more than 1 factor involved? All I want is a game that has great gameplay and I didn’t get it. I don’t care at all about flashy graphics and all my autoexecs for games show that.


(DarkangelUK) #112

I’m pretty sure he asked WHY they wouldn’t work ¬_¬


(.Chris.) #113

No they are not and I’ve just explained why, they are two separate factors that need to be looked side by side to ensure that no one team has an unfair advantage, typically in the past public maps slightly favor the defense, that’s fine for a campaign mode, however in Brink the maps massively favor the defense, it’s no coincidence that the defense wins most of the time.

The distance it takes for a team to reach the objective is indeed the map layout it self, I don’t remember saying otherwise. Obviously a spawn point further away from the objective takes longer to travel, you use spawn times to balance this difference out.

After the start of the map and you’re at an objective and a player from each team dies at the same time, the question is who’s going to get back to the objective first and how much time will there be before the other one arrives. This is where travel distances and spawn times come into play for reasons I explained before.

A heavily defensed biased map will have the defense in the above situation constantly get back to the objective before the attack with oodles of time to prepare. A balanced map will make sure they arrive at similar times. An attack biased map will have the attack arrive there shortly before the defense (good for stopwatch matches).

I just explained why a balanced map doesn’t need to be symmetrical.


(gooey79) #114

Not intending to come off as rude here but there appears to be two different levels of experience at play.

1] Previous experience of map building/modding (.Chris.)
2] No experience of map building/modding (Wolf)

Lack of experience doesn’t mean these things can’t be discussed but surely it’s better to listen to the guys that are better versed in this stuff instead of resisting their input at every juncture?


(wolfnemesis75) #115

[QUOTE=.Chris.;369498]No they are not and I’ve just explained why, they are two separate factors that need to be looked side by side to ensure that no one team has an unfair advantage, typically in the past public maps slightly favor the defense, that’s fine for a campaign mode, however in Brink the maps massively favor the defense, it’s no coincidence that the defense wins most of the time.

The distance it takes for a team to reach the objective is indeed the map layout it self, I don’t remember saying otherwise. Obviously a spawn point further away from the objective takes longer to travel, you use spawn times to balance this difference out.

After the start of the map and you’re at an objective and a player from each team dies at the same time, the question is who’s going to get back to the objective first and how much time will there be before the other one arrives. This is where travel distances and spawn times come into play for reasons I explained before.

A heavily defensed biased map will have the defense in the above situation constantly get back to the objective before the attack with oodles of time to prepare. A balanced map will make sure they arrive at similar times. An attack biased map will have the attack arrive there shortly before the defense (good for stopwatch matches).

I just explained why a balanced map doesn’t need to be symmetrical.[/QUOTE]

All true. We’re saying the same thing, I just believe during the process of map creation, the bulk of the work is spent in places other than spawn timers which is something that can be adjusted once its play tested and then further in the wild.

Brink is designed as a whole so that defensive reinforcements arrive quicker to take back the objective than Attacking team on all the maps.

Many factors determine how a map is designed and how it plays out, and one factor is weighed against the other while designing it. Defense has the advantage in Brink. Distance proximity of spawn to objective is only one reason.

The defending team has a fundamental advantage in Brink as currently designed irrespective of spawn timers or map design. Because the defending team is typically not a man short (offense must sacrifice a man to complete the objective) and can form a perimeter trench/wall in which the enemy team has no choice but to break through. Without a true handicap (like more attacking players than defending players) the defending team theoretically always has the advantage in Brink irrespective of the map design or spawn timers and is compounded if the offense should fail on their first attempt and are driven back to spawn. Hence why the maps play out the way they do.

On an Escort portion, unless the Escort moves entirely away from the Enemy spawn, at some point its gonna come in close proximity to the enemy spawn. Tweaking spawn timers is one way to try and balance out the edge that defense has. But there’s no scenario that is gonna balance out the advantage 100%. And, the wacky varying spawn timers at different objectives on continuous maps I am sure could frustrate the average gamer, like the 30 second wait as Resistance when the Security is fixing the crane on CC. I know why I have to wait that long but will the average player? I am sure its a slippery slope if you keep changing spawn times at each objective. That’s one area that needs mentioning.

The thread wants to know What were the reasoning of the maps. And that’s what we are discussing. The process is like years in the making.


(tokamak) #116

The process is like years in the making.

And what the veterans are wondering is why it’s taken such huge leaps backwards.


(wolfnemesis75) #117

People in general do not like to play stuff where one side has an inherent advantage. Unlike neutral modes like CTF, TDM, and Slayer, etc, where at the start of the match there is no built in advantage. Admit it. And at the end of the day, that’s where some of the frustration comes from. But any time you create a situation where one team is defending and the other team is attacking, the defending team fundamentally has the advantage. Nature of the Beast here.

Stopwatch Mode is the truest solution.

Stop living in the good old days when people walked ten miles to school in ten feet of snow. :slight_smile:


(Kurushi) #118

In current maps? There’s no room for them

In future maps, no problem


(DarkangelUK) #119

[QUOTE=wolfnemesis75;369557]
Stop living in the good old days when people walked ten miles to school in ten feet of snow. :)[/QUOTE]

The good old days worked, this doesn’t… clearly, hence the issue you’re failing to grasp. I like the “it’s new therefore it works”, no it doesn’t, not by a long shot. But then you wouldn’t know, cos you’ve never experienced it working to be able to identify when something isn’t working… and it’s because of that that you’re input will never hold any merit.


(wolfnemesis75) #120

Always funny why you come out to play. :wink:

Let me get my boots on because its getting deep. :tongue: