Mandatory Tutorial

[Szakalot]

@BloodySin said:

@Szakalot said:
You are most definitely NOT forced to grind, to get loadouts or merc or anything. You can play the game without any of that. Just like you can skip tutorial currently.

Not much I can say when you apparently have an alternative interpretation of what entails griding, that differs from most people’s.

@Szakalot said:
Sucking is something that no tutorial will fix, because it takes actual in-game experience to learn all the things we take for granted.

Sucking from lack of a bare minimum of knowledge of how a class works beyond “go out there and try it” can be fixed, or at least eased, with proper information.

@Szakalot said:
The things you consider obvious, like throwing ammo, are difficult for a newbie who can barely keep track of who is friend/foe, and where the hell the frontline even is.

I’m saying there should be tutorials for each class, but you say I consider it obvious? For real? I’m the one saying those things aren’t obvious to new players and they need to be better explained instead of leaning by being yelled at by other layers in first-hand experience. You’re the one saying teaching them about that won’t fix anything.

PS: Still waiting for the elaboration on “that’s a bad idea.”

yup, its hard to put arguments forth when you misrepresent what i said.

grind =/ being forced to do sth in game. Maybe you do equivocate it yourself, thats on you though.

Proper information assumes the information is integrated by the recipient, which it isnt; when it comes to a lvl2 skyhammer who HAS NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON.

I said that things like throwing ammo are obvious, was it too much guesswork? Are you saying throwing ammo is not obvious to you?

Merc-specific tutorials would be nice, but its imo waste of development time, when we already have decent roll-call videos. Ideally those would be easily accessible in-game.

[BloodySin]

@Szakalot said:
yup, its hard to put arguments worth when you misrepresent what i said.

grind =/ being forced to do sth in game. Maybe you do equivocate it yourself, thats on you though.

Read my reply to “Nail.”

@Szakalot said:
Proper information assumes the information is integrated by the recipient, which it isnt; when it comes to a lvl2 skyhammer who HAS NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON.

And you know what information is and isn’t integrated by each and every recipient? Must be nice to have access to that sort of data. Care to share the source?

@Szakalot said:
I said that things like throwing ammo are obvious, was it too much guesswork? Are you saying throwing ammo is not obvious to you?

Obvious right off the bat from running the game the first time? No. After I did the tutorial before playing anything? Yes. Do I consider myself and my personal experience as a basis to judge the whole community? No, especially when new players obviously have noticeable issues as things currently are. Maybe my problem is that I’m thinking about others, who have issues, not just about myself because I don’t.

[Szakalot]

@BloodySin said:

@Szakalot said:
yup, its hard to put arguments worth when you misrepresent what i said.

grind =/ being forced to do sth in game. Maybe you do equivocate it yourself, thats on you though.

Read my reply to “Nail.”

@Szakalot said:
Proper information assumes the information is integrated by the recipient, which it isnt; when it comes to a lvl2 skyhammer who HAS NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON.

And you know what information is and isn’t integrated by each and every recipient? Must be nice to have access to that sort of data. Care to share the source?

@Szakalot said:
I said that things like throwing ammo are obvious, was it too much guesswork? Are you saying throwing ammo is not obvious to you?

Obvious right off the bat from running the game the first time? No. After I did the tutorial before playing anything? Yes. Do I consider myself and my personal experience as a basis to judge the whole community? No, especially when new players obviously have noticeable issues as things currently are. Maybe my problem is that I’m thinking about others, who have issues, not just about myself because I don’t.

I did. Not sure what effect you are trying to achieve. Nail explained my position very clearly, and I’m not sure you get it.

I **exclusively **play on minlvl10 servers. And skyhammers not giving ammo, medics not reviving, people with the most insane behavior, its all still there. Are you telling me these people are uninformed?

Let me try that again: teamwork is a SKILL. You need to learn it, same way you need to learn how to aim. Teamwork is not knowledge, its an ability.
Its almost muscle memory to push when at an advantage, fall back when outnumbered, etc. All those behaviors of clueless pubbers people talk about: its not about having finished tutorial or not.

I’d be surprised if less than half of all players never tried tutorials. Lot of people (myself included) find them fun, and a nice way to get into a new game. And yet, those horrible playstyles stick, even in people with +40h in game. This tells me that its not lack of information as in ‘im a skyhammer and i dont know im supposed to give ammo’ but all the other problems that come from inexperience, like the tunnel vision mentioned before.

I’m gonna drop this discussion about ‘obvious’ stuff, since you didnt seem to get what I meant.

[BloodySin]

@Szakalot said:
I did. Not sure what effect you are trying to achieve. Nail explained my position very clearly, and I’m not sure you get it.

I get your “position,” as well as the fact it’s irrelevant to reality. People not “needing” new mercs and loadouts doesn’t means the game isn’t about getting more mercs and loadouts, which people will want to do, which is behind a huge grind.

@Szakalot said:
I **exclusively **play on minlvl10 servers. And skyhammers not giving ammo, medics not reviving, people with the most insane behavior, its all still there. Are you telling me these people are uninformed?

Are you telling me the bad players you play with represent the whole of the playerbase, including people who just joined and all those who will join in the future? Your data source is out of the world, literally.

Let me try that again: teamwork is a SKILL. You need to learn it, same way you need to learn how to aim. Teamwork is not knowledge, its an ability.
Its almost muscle memory to push when at an advantage, fall back when outnumbered, etc. All those behaviors of clueless pubbers people talk about: its not about having finished tutorial or not.

And none of that is the subject of the topic - that being tutorials, their importance and what can be covered by them - so your dabbling in semantics is yet another case of irrelevance. Start your own topic talking about the development of “teamwork skill,” while we discuss tutorials and basic character awareness.

[Nail]

“lack of understanding of the English language seems to be a major problem on this site.”

[Szakalot]

the thread reached the ‘l-o-l’ stage , where the desire to unlock new mercs is equalized to being forced to go through a tutorial, and the necessity of multiple game hours before grasping on basic teamwork ideas is disregarded, because apparently, having players sit through a tutorial will suddenly give them a situational awareness buff.

Oh, and minlvl10 player population, with a minimum +20h of gameplay, is not conservative enough player group when looking at newbie behavior. The only logical conclusion following that people get drastically worse, and actively lose basic game experience&knowledge with additional levels acquired.

lol indeed.

[SnakekillerX]

You know what I think? I think we need to argue about this some more, maybe even get our families and friends involved.

[SteelMailbox]

IMO I think you need to combine both the ideas that came up here.
A general tutorial as to how to actually play the game and all it’s features with a quick guide on Skyhammer and Aura and once you unlock a new merc you equip a new merc you get a tutorial for him. All need to be mandatory however. This game isn’t designed to have an Aura sitting on one’s dying body not doing anything and a noob will have a hard time learning about stuff like long jumps unless he either does the tutorial or watches a Youtube video, however in my eyes if a person needs to learn about a basic feature of the game from a Youtube video there is a bit of a problem.

[Szakalot]

yes, more more, more mandatory stuff!! once the game is completely abandoned by people who dont want to work in a video game, we can add some extra mandatory stuff, at least it wont matter anymore

[SteelMailbox]

@Szakalot said:
yes, more more, more mandatory stuff!! once the game is completely abandoned by people who dont want to work in a video game, we can add some extra mandatory stuff, at least it wont matter anymore

What is mandatory in the game as it is? A tutorial won’t harm no one.

[GatoCommodore]

@Szakalot said:
yes, more more, more mandatory stuff!! once the game is completely abandoned by people who dont want to work in a video game, we can add some extra mandatory stuff, at least it wont matter anymore

i dont get why you dont like newbies to be less stupid
or do you like newbies to be same stupid forever for you to stomp them easier?

[Nail]

making any tutorial mandatory will NOT make people understand or play “smarter”. People just want to get in the game and be Leroy Jenkins, because “we know how to play FPS, been playing UT for years”

[GatoCommodore]

@Nail said:
making any tutorial mandatory will NOT make people understand or play “smarter”. People just want to get in the game and be Leroy Jenkins, because “we know how to play FPS, been playing UT for years”

“Give your troops training on how to use a spear will NOT make them know how to use spear”

this is you

tell me, is it better to have nothing at all?

[Nail]

I’m sorry you don’t understand what I’m saying, I only speak English

[Szakalot]

@GatoCommodore said:

@Nail said:
making any tutorial mandatory will NOT make people understand or play “smarter”. People just want to get in the game and be Leroy Jenkins, because “we know how to play FPS, been playing UT for years”

“Give your troops training on how to use a spear will NOT make them know how to use spear”

this is you

tell me, is it better to have nothing at all?

‘talk to people for 5min about spears and they will become wise troops’ - this is you

it is good that the tutorial is there , for those that want it. it will help them get into the game faster.

but those that dont want it, let them skip it ffs. it wont make much difference, and it certainly wont make the ‘skippers’ worse teamplayers

[ClemClem7]

@Szakalot said:

@GatoCommodore said:

@Nail said:
making any tutorial mandatory will NOT make people understand or play “smarter”. People just want to get in the game and be Leroy Jenkins, because “we know how to play FPS, been playing UT for years”

“Give your troops training on how to use a spear will NOT make them know how to use spear”

this is you

tell me, is it better to have nothing at all?

‘talk to people for 5min about spears and they will become wise troops’ - this is you

it is good that the tutorial is there , for those that want it. it will help them get into the game faster.

but those that dont want it, let them skip it ffs. it wont make much difference, and it certainly wont make the ‘skippers’ worse teamplayers

The solution I proposed was to let them skip this tutorial if they don’t want to, but then they can’t open the golden case.
And playing ranked is meaning you want to put you more in the game. If you don’t even want to play the tutorial, I don’t think you’ll want to take a medic when your team need it, but you will stay at skyhammer just to shoot thing because you’re just playing a FPS and nothing more.
A player who don’t even have the time to play the “5 minutes tutorial nothing more” don’t even has the spirit of involving him in the game/team. Then I don’t want him in ranked. I don’t even want him in the ennemy team in ranked.

As @GatoCommodore said, what can be worse than knowing nothing on the game ? Some people (few right, but still) who play this game (even in ranked) don’t even know they can drop ammo for their teammates, that repairing/defusing/planting don’t stack, and engi are better at this job. Just look at the link below from reddit.

Can we have a mandatory (objectives) tutorial before letting people buy...

I don’t care if someone just want to play quick objective match without even doing the tutorial before, but not in ranked FFS. And if we don’t incentive them to do it (by the golden case key), I can see why some people don’t even do it.

[Mc1412013]

A 30 second or less crash course on the mercs abilities isnt to bad. Just do something similar to the merc role call but condensed. But if there were a mandatory tutorial needs to have the commanders do it with there commander charm that most of us find funny

[GatoCommodore]

@Szakalot said:

@GatoCommodore said:

@Nail said:
making any tutorial mandatory will NOT make people understand or play “smarter”. People just want to get in the game and be Leroy Jenkins, because “we know how to play FPS, been playing UT for years”

“Give your troops training on how to use a spear will NOT make them know how to use spear”

this is you

tell me, is it better to have nothing at all?

‘talk to people for 5min about spears and they will become wise troops’ - this is you

it is good that the tutorial is there , for those that want it. it will help them get into the game faster.

but those that dont want it, let them skip it ffs. it wont make much difference, and it certainly wont make the ‘skippers’ worse teamplayers

we both know well that 5 minutes explaining on pressing E Q and F is more than enough.

you think farmer conscripted into spear infantry are master spearman? They are just a fodder. But it sure is better having fodders who knows how to “Use the pointy one” instead of playing javelin on their spear

[Szakalot]

@ClemClem7 I have nothing against incentives like you describe: play tutorial to unlock a golden case is a great idea. I’m very strongly against any forcing of players to do anything. It’d be like going to a restaurant and the waiter says they refuse to give you food unless you are willing to use chopsticks/cutlery, and not the other one.

@GatoCommodore If those farmers had infinite lives and were able to go through the battle over and over again, would those 5 min matter?

There is a limit to how meaningful you can make such analogies.

[GatoCommodore]

@Szakalot said:

@GatoCommodore If those farmers had infinite lives and were able to go through the battle over and over again, would those 5 min matter?

There is a limit to how meaningful you can make such analogies.

wait, wouldnt that make it even better?

it wont matter on 1v1 but it matters in grand scale of things.
if a tutorial skipper team fought against a team that didnt skip tutorial, id bet the people who knows how to use the paddle and give ammo would win.

hell, i would take a level 6 aura that know how to use the revive paddle any day than the aura who skips tutorial and leave her health station in spawn…