Loadout cards SUCK, period. There are so many better ways of customization! Discussion inside =)


(Oridiian) #1

Hi Folks,

This is my first post to the forum, so I’ll try and make it a good one. My first introduction into team shooters was with Counter Strike 1.6, and later down the line even Brink (which was one of my all-time favourite games). Having now logged over 100 hours with Dirty Bomb, I can safely say this is one of my new favourite games =). The Maps are interesting, large, and the gunplay is fantastic. But apparently that is not enough… the game is dying and player numbers are dropping.

In short (and I don’t believe I am alone in this thinking), loadout cards SUCK as a concept. More than that, they are a terrible wasted opportunity and a lazy way of implementing “balanced” characters. There are brilliant examples of customizing player loadouts in other hugely successful franchises that could be used as an example to turn Dirty Bomb into a contender for one of the best competitive team shooters out there. And with hugely popular games like CS:GO already established, and newer competition like Overwatch just around the corner, it’s time to make some changes to get more people involved and make this game thrive. According to steamcharts.com, there are around ~3,600 average players in the last 30 days for Dirty Bomb, and that number is falling. Compare that with CS:GO - over 360,000 average players in the last 30 days, and that number is RISING.

So let’s look at the basics. I am happy to pay for content I enjoy, and have in fact purchased the three merc bundles and a couple more with in-game credits. I like that I can see and choose the best bronze loadout for each of my mercs that suit my playstyle. But after I’ve bought my mercs, and maybe a bronze card or two for each one… there is no point, no character progression, no CHOICE left to make. The idea is supposedly that higher rarity loadouts have more “bling”, yet I literally cannot tell the difference between a base, no-loadout enemy, and a cobalt-loadout enemy when I am running around during a firefight. Maybe there is a slight blue tint… but meh. Sometimes I see a blue or red tinted gun while watching a teammate while I wait to respawn, whoopty-doo. Add to that the RNG of trade-ups, when I already have a perfectly selected bronze card, there is no incentive to trade up. Just more “meh”, I have these spare, lousy cards that I’m not using let’s see if I can trade “up” to a better one… aaaaannnnd… nope. Now I have another loadout I’ll never use, its just a different colour. And the “meh” continues.

I just don’t understand why this system exists. To me it just seems lazy, and there are several examples in other games that would make so much more sense in a game like Dirty Bomb. Let’s start with “bling” - look no further than Counter Strike Global Offensive. The addition of Steam marketable skins, obtained from opening cases with keys that cost $2.49, hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of items are bought and sold every hour. And the skins are 100% COSMETIC, no Pay-2-Win. People love collecting, trading, showing them off, bragging about how rare or expensive they are. Some special skins feature “Stattrak”, tracking the exact number of kills from that weapon over it’s lifetime. Dirty bomb is already on Steam - imagine if you could buy/sell/trade weapon skins to use on any character that can use a given model of weapon. You could even implement it without changing the loadout card system! (although that would be pretty disappointing). It’s a proven, hugely successful business model.

Next issue is with the loadout cards themselves. You look at the available loadouts, and to begin with - they are finite. You only have a dozen or so possible loadouts per character, and alot of the pre-defined combinations are just terrible, no-brainer choices vs. other loadouts. Even then, some mercs don’t have any “great” choices, just loadouts with perks that aren’t quite as lousy as the other possible choices (looking at you Redeye).

You want a balanced, player-customisable loadout system? Look at the perk system from Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare. Individual, CHOOSABLE perks that you EARN by levelling up, creating that element of player progression. In Dirty bomb - the early tiers could allow you access to the newbie talents like Try Hard, or the one that warns you when an airstrike is incoming. Later talents give you access to things like extra magazines, better medpacks, or the extended cloak time on Phantom. How do you balance it? By making different perks cost different amounts of points to add to your character, and you only have a limited number of points to spend. This also lends itself to the CHOICE of any weapon on any character. You want to use that MOA-SNIPR1 on Nader? Go for it! But you won’t have any points left to buy a decent sidearm. Want to choose a KATANA on Sparks? Go for it! But you might only be able to afford three cheap perks. (I hope you see the basic idea here, plenty of room for discussion!)

I hope I’ve made some sense here. Let me know what you guys think in the comments below :slight_smile:

  • Oridiian

(N8o) #2

[quote=“Oridiian;17373”]Hi Folks,

This is my first post to the forum, so I’ll try and make it a good one. My first introduction into team shooters was with Counter Strike 1.6, and later down the line even Brink (which was one of my all-time favourite games). Having now logged over 100 hours with Dirty Bomb, I can safely say this is one of my new favourite games =). The Maps are interesting, large, and the gunplay is fantastic. But apparently that is not enough… the game is dying and player numbers are dropping.

In short (and I don’t believe I am alone in this thinking), loadout cards SUCK as a concept. More than that, they are a terrible wasted opportunity and a lazy way of implementing “balanced” characters. There are brilliant examples of customizing player loadouts in other hugely successful franchises that could be used as an example to turn Dirty Bomb into a contender for one of the best competitive team shooters out there. And with hugely popular games like CS:GO already established, and newer competition like Overwatch just around the corner, it’s time to make some changes to get more people involved and make this game thrive. According to steamcharts.com, there are around ~3,600 average players in the last 30 days for Dirty Bomb, and that number is falling. Compare that with CS:GO - over 360,000 average players in the last 30 days, and that number is RISING.

So let’s look at the basics. I am happy to pay for content I enjoy, and have in fact purchased the three merc bundles and a couple more with in-game credits. I like that I can see and choose the best bronze loadout for each of my mercs that suit my playstyle. But after I’ve bought my mercs, and maybe a bronze card or two for each one… there is no point, no character progression, no CHOICE left to make. The idea is supposedly that higher rarity loadouts have more “bling”, yet I literally cannot tell the difference between a base, no-loadout enemy, and a cobalt-loadout enemy when I am running around during a firefight. Maybe there is a slight blue tint… but meh. Sometimes I see a blue or red tinted gun while watching a teammate while I wait to respawn, whoopty-doo. Add to that the RNG of trade-ups, when I already have a perfectly selected bronze card, there is no incentive to trade up. Just more “meh”, I have these spare, lousy cards that I’m not using let’s see if I can trade “up” to a better one… aaaaannnnd… nope. Now I have another loadout I’ll never use, its just a different colour. And the “meh” continues.

I just don’t understand why this system exists. To me it just seems lazy, and there are several examples in other games that would make so much more sense in a game like Dirty Bomb. Let’s start with “bling” - look no further than Counter Strike Global Offensive. The addition of Steam marketable skins, obtained from opening cases with keys that cost $2.49, hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of items are bought and sold every hour. And the skins are 100% COSMETIC, no Pay-2-Win. People love collecting, trading, showing them off, bragging about how rare or expensive they are. Some special skins feature “Stattrak”, tracking the exact number of kills from that weapon over it’s lifetime. Dirty bomb is already on Steam - imagine if you could buy/sell/trade weapon skins to use on any character that can use a given model of weapon. You could even implement it without changing the loadout card system! (although that would be pretty disappointing). It’s a proven, hugely successful business model.

Next issue is with the loadout cards themselves. You look at the available loadouts, and to begin with - they are finite. You only have a dozen or so possible loadouts per character, and alot of the pre-defined combinations are just terrible, no-brainer choices vs. other loadouts. Even then, some mercs don’t have any “great” choices, just loadouts with perks that aren’t quite as lousy as the other possible choices (looking at you Redeye).

You want a balanced, player-customisable loadout system? Look at the perk system from Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare. Individual, CHOOSABLE perks that you EARN by levelling up, creating that element of player progression. In Dirty bomb - the early tiers could allow you access to the newbie talents like Try Hard, or the one that warns you when an airstrike is incoming. Later talents give you access to things like extra magazines, better medpacks, or the extended cloak time on Phantom. How do you balance it? By making different perks cost different amounts of points to add to your character, and you only have a limited number of points to spend. This also lends itself to the CHOICE of any weapon on any character. You want to use that MOA-SNIPR1 on Nader? Go for it! But you won’t have any points left to buy a decent sidearm. Want to choose a KATANA on Sparks? Go for it! But you might only be able to afford three cheap perks. (I hope you see the basic idea here, plenty of room for discussion!)

I hope I’ve made some sense here. Let me know what you guys think in the comments below :slight_smile:

  • Oridiian

[/quote]
Oh my god please no. Your opinion progressively losses validity as you type.

The problem with this system is the same as the current one.

EVERYONE would have the same load out eventually. It would simply change with whatever the current meta is. If you make it a point based system like that in… oh god… Call of Duty, there would be even less variety than there is now. Even worse, you are suggesting that they put this behind a level barrier. This would go over TERRIBLY with the community and levels right now are extremely frowned upon and hold no value. They’re arbitrary. Most players aren’t above the level 10 mark, and if you suggest making them unlock everything very quickly, then what is the point of player progression?

Right now, the load out cards we have now are in a good place(ish). Most have at least some value and variety. I think people overthink the usefulness of most augments. They really don’t do a whole lot to make you more effective. What makes you effective is gun play and strategy, not Drilled or Get Up (Debatable).

My last point is with letting all characters use all weapons. In a game based around asymmetrical balance, this is a GIANT issue. I would cry tears saltier than the Dead Sea if I ever saw a Proxy run around with a Katana.
This would also cause mercs to lose whatever personality they had before.

Phantom’s saving grace is the very fact that he has a Katana! It is literally integrated into his role and “lore” if you want to call it that.


(XavienX) #3

The devs are already considering to separate cosmetics and loadouts in the future. Well technically, so to speak, they actually already had that feature in Alpha stages but it’s has NDA .-.
My guess is that they just had cosmetics and loadouts locked together due to the sake of having the existence of loadout cards but didn’t have time to separate cosmetics into theirselves from opening cases?

Alpha customizations:


(JesseKomm) #4

This has been brought up a few times before, Loadout cards are lacking very much and yes most of them appear useless to their respective mercs, but you need to take balance into consideration… being able to choose any augments we want would raise some concerns, also there is absolutely no way the weapons should be available to all mercs… that would make people like Vassili useless if you could equip a sniper on a Rhino even if it meant having crap augments.

A point system for deciding your loadout will not work well in this game at all, somewhere like Call of Duty yeah, but that’s because they do not have unique characters with their own special abilities over there… it’s all dependant on kill streak rewards and that isn’t a good model in my opinion.

Currently the developers are working on implementing more variety into the loadout card system so that we’re not left with an “obvious choice”, but one thing I am disappointed by is not being able to swap out weapons that are specific to that merc(i.e. taking Fragger’s most popular loadout with the M4A1 and giving it the K-121 because it suits your preference more)… augments help in small ways but they don’t make such a massive difference that we need to focus solely on having a specific setup of them, the problem is having players decide between the augments on a card and the weapons on it… we should be allowed to choose weapons at our own free will while maintaining the integrity of the selected merc and their augment set choices.


(frolicsomeCrane) #5

There are very few perks which actually matter in game to be honest. In my opinion the best perks are Unshakeable, Chopper, Get up (for medics), Explodydendron (though 10% is like nothing at all), and to some degree Bomb Squad, Tryhard, probably Tough and Untrackable.

Apart from those perks the rest are just flavor. If you could just choose any perk you want and put them in the 3 slots, I’m gonna tell you that “the meta” would consist of these perks alone.

Hell, any merc with only Chopper is good to go for me because I really love melee, but that’s my playstyle, the extra damage is a godsend.


(N8o) #6

[quote=“frolicsomeCrane;78222”]There are very few perks which actually matter in game to be honest. In my opinion the best perks are Unshakeable, Chopper, Get up (for medics), Explodydendron (though 10% is like nothing at all), and to some degree Bomb Squad, Tryhard, probably Tough and Untrackable.

Apart from those perks the rest are just flavor. If you could just choose any perk you want and put them in the 3 slots, I’m gonna tell you that “the meta” would consist of these perks alone.

Hell, any merc with only Chopper is good to go for me because I really love melee, but that’s my playstyle, the extra damage is a godsend.[/quote]

Don’t forget Double Time!


(JesseKomm) #7

[quote=“Kaneki;78223”][quote=“frolicsomeCrane;78222”]There are very few perks which actually matter in game to be honest. In my opinion the best perks are Unshakeable, Chopper, Get up (for medics), Explodydendron (though 10% is like nothing at all), and to some degree Bomb Squad, Tryhard, probably Tough and Untrackable.

Apart from those perks the rest are just flavor. If you could just choose any perk you want and put them in the 3 slots, I’m gonna tell you that “the meta” would consist of these perks alone.

Hell, any merc with only Chopper is good to go for me because I really love melee, but that’s my playstyle, the extra damage is a godsend.[/quote]

Don’t forget Double Time![/quote]

And don’t forget Springy! Boing boing! Kidding… it’s useless, no one uses it, maybe if it increased wall jumps by one too then it would be viable.


(Yes) #8

I like quickslash a lot more.


(MarsRover) #9

Drilled and Quick draw saved my ass a few times.

There are a few more useful in pubs:
Guardian angel when no one calls out airstikes
Spares because pressing E is too hard for some


(srswizard) #10

Unlocking augments by leveling up, is just as outdated of a system, as loadout cards are, and it’d force people to grind levels, to be able to compete.
That said, I really dislike the loadout card system, because it won’t allow me to have a loadout that I consider perfect.

Sure people would generally build the same “meta-loadouts”, if given the chance, but it just means that the less used augments and weapons would have to be buffed/tweaked.


(B_Montiel) #11

@Oridiian, the different ideas you expose seem to forget a lot of factors which currently matters a lot in dirty bomb :

  • Balance is possibly one of the biggest priority for SD in dirty bomb. Currently, loadouts (weapons and augments tied hand in hand) are the only things that prevent the meta builds you can see in battlefield or call of duty. And for now, the loadouts system works pretty well in regard of gap between high tier and low tier cards. The margin is quite tight, and pure advantages augments are generally balanced by strong drawbacks in the weapon set. In essence, bf/cod games give you the illusion of choice and variety simply by allowing you to sandbox characters in a very extensive way. But I’ve yet to see one of these games where high comp players use more than 10% of the perks available. Everyone use the same perks because they provide the most rounded advantages with minor drawbacks. And this will happen here as well if they allow us to do whatever we want. I’m not even mentioning the idea of free weapon choices. COD or BF are not balanced at all, not even close to that. Keep that in mind. DB forces players to do compromises, not by simply removing your secondary weapon because you wasted all your amount of points on stronger weapons. And this is what balance mechanics have always been in games where they take this seriously.
  • Trading and selling stuff out on steam’s market is not a success provider on its own. If you look at valve’s strategy in particular, they never established a trading system before having a substantial player base at first. You can easily understand that a game which has on average 3600 players at any given time will have difficulties to sustain reasonable prices for sellers, as the potential customer base is low (thus lowering the price at which people will sell their items). The scale of the player base is a real problem here. And so far, SD and Nexon seem to be totally aware of this by first making the successful by its own roots. Loadouts and cosmetics won’t help if people have deeper issues with core problems, aka gameplay issues, bugs, features not working properly. Hence they usually answer “when the rest is done” when people ask about trading. And I’m sorry, trading is not a proven hugely successful model because one developer/publisher uses it (on its own platform by the way) and make it successful on two games (I’m positive here, trading in TF2 was just a rather uncontrolled experiment). They even failed at it if you look at dota 2. Prices are so low there you can even have rare sets for less than 5$/€.

(frolicsomeCrane) #12

I like quickslash a lot more.[/quote]

Totally forgot about that one, my bad, add it after chopper.


(DMaster2) #13

I would like to keep loadout cards, but for perks only. What i mean you can freely choose your main gun, sidearm and melee (ofc limited to the current pool of guns for each merc), then you choose a loadout with 3 perks in it, with possibly more options than we have now.


(Ghosthree3) #14

This throws balance out the window though.


(JesseKomm) #15

This throws balance out the window though.[/quote]

Not really, there are some people that choose a loadout based on weapons but honestly that’s all user preference, there really are no better weapons… as well most loadouts do not have augments that are specifically related to their weapon choices. As long as the augments are in balance with each other there really is no need to restrict the weapon choices.


(Ghosthree3) #16

Better guns are often balanced by giving them a slightly worse perk selection than a worse gun. And when they’re not they should be. If you’re going to let people pick augments to go with any gun you might as well just delete 7-8 loadout combo choices on every class because they’re just completely inferior.


(JesseKomm) #17

Better guns are often balanced by giving them a slightly worse perk selection than a worse gun. And when they’re not they should be. If you’re going to let people pick augments to go with any gun you might as well just delete 7-8 loadout combo choices on every class because they’re just completely inferior.[/quote]

Again you’re keeping the mentality that there are “better” guns than others, maybe for the vocal majority but not everyone feels that way. With the tiny selection of weapons we have now this system is all right, but I’m certain that will change in the future and in that case they’ll need to change the way loadouts work to accommodate the larger selection of weapons:loadouts ratio… for instance if we get 12 more assault rifles in the future I doubt they will design 36 new loadouts to give each weapon a position in 3 loadouts(This is simply much more trouble than allowing us to pick and choose our weapons).

That is a future problem and I admit that, but that doesn’t mean we cannot have the system in place already since really, and I cannot emphasis this enough, there are no better guns to others. It’s all preference, just because more people prefer one weapon doesn’t make it better.


(frolicsomeCrane) #18

Better guns are often balanced by giving them a slightly worse perk selection than a worse gun. And when they’re not they should be. If you’re going to let people pick augments to go with any gun you might as well just delete 7-8 loadout combo choices on every class because they’re just completely inferior.[/quote]

Again you’re keeping the mentality that there are “better” guns than others, maybe for the vocal majority but not everyone feels that way. With the tiny selection of weapons we have now this system is all right, but I’m certain that will change in the future and in that case they’ll need to change the way loadouts work to accommodate the larger selection of weapons:loadouts ratio… for instance if we get 12 more assault rifles in the future I doubt they will design 36 new loadouts to give each weapon a position in 3 loadouts(This is simply much more trouble than allowing us to pick and choose our weapons).

That is a future problem and I admit that, but that doesn’t mean we cannot have the system in place already since really, and I cannot emphasis this enough, there are no better guns to others. It’s all preference, just because more people prefer one weapon doesn’t make it better.[/quote]

Actually this can be done surprisingly easy with the current perks. I mean, there are lot of perks and they can come up with any idea like that one loadout for Redeye with Quick Slash, Chopper and Grandeur. Some people think that’s awful, I personally think that’s amazing.

Loadouts are actually thought out and you need to change your playstyle according to them, their perks and the weapons they have equipped.

Much like how that one BR Skyhammer gets an extra ammo bag, he’s not gonna run on the frontlines, instead he plays a way more supporting role, having even more ammo to give.


(Ghosthree3) #19

But there are, there are one or two guns - when shotguns are a choice vs smg - which are just plain better picks on every merc because they are the most useful. There may be situations where another gun might be better but that is outclassed by being less useful more often.

This won’t ever happen though, ever. This isn’t that type of game.

But that’s just not true.


(Jostabeere) #20

Loadouts are the best mechanic if you wanna have variety and balance at the same time.