Loadout cards SUCK, period. There are so many better ways of customization! Discussion inside =)

(B_Montiel) #21

This throws balance out the window though.[/quote]

Not really, there are some people that choose a loadout based on weapons but honestly that’s all user preference, there really are no better weapons… as well most loadouts do not have augments that are specifically related to their weapon choices. As long as the augments are in balance with each other there really is no need to restrict the weapon choices.[/quote]

Lol, did you ever wonder why there’s no K121 + explodydendron loadouts available for fragger ?
Now that K121 retrieved its former usefulness, the only reason to pick a m4 loadout with fragger is its augments. Strictly. Same goes all the mercs. With proxy for example, there’s absolute no reason to go for DE.50 equipped loadouts except good augments. DE.50 is by far her worst secondary choices. Tolen or MP400 peaks over 300 body damage per clip while it only does 140. I’m not even mentioning accuracy.

(Litego) #22

Skins separated from cards: Agree.
Weapons separated from cards: Agree.
Weapons available to any merc: Disagree.
Augments separated from cards: Indifferent.
Anything unlocked through leveling: Strongly disagree.

(Fleshpound) #23

That new account just played too much of other games and think that he make that game fully better without cards etc.

Skins separated from cards? +1
Weapons separated from cards? I don’t think so(Over-use of OP loadouts).
Weapons available to every single merc?? Are you crazy?? You want Phantom with M4 or Hochifir with Toten MP and Katana and good perks(Or fletcher with Crotzni :I)

Augments separated from cards:If you can give extra augments which only make visual effects like custom looking for skills or weapons then why not but for other means no.

Anything unlocked by leveling:95% no(i would agree,if it could only give us exclusive mastery skins and extra taunts :I)

(Sorotia) #24

I like quickslash a lot more.[/quote]

Totally forgot about that one, my bad, add it after chopper.[/quote]

Custom loadouts…yeah I could picture a Phantom with Chopper and Quickslash >.< Would be annoying as hell.

(Loki.) #25

And to think, I’d be happy with, just being able to delete useless/non-rarity loadouts… :wink:

(JesseKomm) #26

This throws balance out the window though.[/quote]

Not really, there are some people that choose a loadout based on weapons but honestly that’s all user preference, there really are no better weapons… as well most loadouts do not have augments that are specifically related to their weapon choices. As long as the augments are in balance with each other there really is no need to restrict the weapon choices.[/quote]

Lol, did you ever wonder why there’s no K121 + explodydendron loadouts available for fragger ?
Now that K121 retrieved its former usefulness, the only reason to pick a m4 loadout with fragger is its augments. Strictly. Same goes all the mercs. With proxy for example, there’s absolute no reason to go for DE.50 equipped loadouts except good augments. DE.50 is by far her worst secondary choices. Tolen or MP400 peaks over 300 body damage per clip while it only does 140. I’m not even mentioning accuracy.[/quote]

Explodydendron is barely useful as an augment, that loadout card is widely picked for it’s Unshakeable which is useful in just about every match. Then you look at the only useful loadout with the K-121 and it has Drilled making that weapon far better to use than in it’s normal state… put it on another loadout and you’ll be dreaming of that faster reload again. But again I’m speaking purely about preference, I for instance love the DE.50 secondary, it’s saved my ass far more than any other sidearm… just because you, or the majority think something is bad, or good, doesn’t mean it is for everyone.

(B_Montiel) #27

This throws balance out the window though.[/quote]

Not really, there are some people that choose a loadout based on weapons but honestly that’s all user preference, there really are no better weapons… as well most loadouts do not have augments that are specifically related to their weapon choices. As long as the augments are in balance with each other there really is no need to restrict the weapon choices.[/quote]

Lol, did you ever wonder why there’s no K121 + explodydendron loadouts available for fragger ?
Now that K121 retrieved its former usefulness, the only reason to pick a m4 loadout with fragger is its augments. Strictly. Same goes all the mercs. With proxy for example, there’s absolute no reason to go for DE.50 equipped loadouts except good augments. DE.50 is by far her worst secondary choices. Tolen or MP400 peaks over 300 body damage per clip while it only does 140. I’m not even mentioning accuracy.[/quote]

Explodydendron is barely useful as an augment, that loadout card is widely picked for it’s Unshakeable which is useful in just about every match. Then you look at the only useful loadout with the K-121 and it has Drilled making that weapon far better to use than in it’s normal state… put it on another loadout and you’ll be dreaming of that faster reload again. But again I’m speaking purely about preference, I for instance love the DE.50 secondary, it’s saved my ass far more than any other sidearm… just because you, or the majority think something is bad, or good, doesn’t mean it is for everyone.[/quote]

This has to be taken from a pure statistical standpoint. If comp players are using this or that, it’s not about preferences, they usually use statistical knowledge of what is good and what is not. Take two exact same players, one who care about this and one who does not, I can predict that the one who cares will win more duels than the other one. And more generally, if you just look at the weapon spreadsheet, it’s not hard to understand why some weapons are favoured by the immense majority of the community. They’re just better. Fact. Preferences have nothing to deal with this.

Taking back my example with DE.50 with proxy, consider something : Devs chosed to put DE.50 in some specific loadouts intentionally. Because they designed it as a poor secondary on purpose, that’s a balance mechanic by itself. No matter what you think, no matter what your preferences are. They’re plenty aware of what is a good weapon and what is not, and they distributed augments accordingly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yYDiX77THpjA-hImu2eRLio-ayOvGnDEeorZgHAieVQ/edit#gid=490808091

(Funkmaster_Rick) #28

“I just don’t understand why this system exists.”

I suspect this system exists solely to sell more cases. Since it relies on a RNG, adding more options makes getting the one you want more rare, which means those inclined to buy cases might buy many more cases - an example of the investment paradox or whatever it’s called, whereby once one has sunk a lot of money into something but received no payout, they are often more likely to invest more into it on the magical assumption that they’re going to win eventually, have to ‘win back’ their losses, or might simply be one or two tries away from winning if only they press on. Once you’ve invested enough, it’s easier from an emotional perspective to invest more than to cut your losses and walk away.

There are a lot of other ways they could have allowed customization and monetization work. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind if one could simply choose their entire loadout from scratch - it’s okay with me that X gun is more powerful than Y gun under 90% of circumstances, as long as Y gun has niche uses like being better within a certain range of distances, or its low recoil making it a better option for head-tapping as opposed X gun being better for twitchy shots, or whatever. As long as the ‘inferior’ options have legitimate niches, I don’t see a problem.

(B_Montiel) #29

double post

(JesseKomm) #30

This throws balance out the window though.[/quote]

Not really, there are some people that choose a loadout based on weapons but honestly that’s all user preference, there really are no better weapons… as well most loadouts do not have augments that are specifically related to their weapon choices. As long as the augments are in balance with each other there really is no need to restrict the weapon choices.[/quote]

Lol, did you ever wonder why there’s no K121 + explodydendron loadouts available for fragger ?
Now that K121 retrieved its former usefulness, the only reason to pick a m4 loadout with fragger is its augments. Strictly. Same goes all the mercs. With proxy for example, there’s absolute no reason to go for DE.50 equipped loadouts except good augments. DE.50 is by far her worst secondary choices. Tolen or MP400 peaks over 300 body damage per clip while it only does 140. I’m not even mentioning accuracy.[/quote]

Explodydendron is barely useful as an augment, that loadout card is widely picked for it’s Unshakeable which is useful in just about every match. Then you look at the only useful loadout with the K-121 and it has Drilled making that weapon far better to use than in it’s normal state… put it on another loadout and you’ll be dreaming of that faster reload again. But again I’m speaking purely about preference, I for instance love the DE.50 secondary, it’s saved my ass far more than any other sidearm… just because you, or the majority think something is bad, or good, doesn’t mean it is for everyone.[/quote]

This has to be taken from a pure statistical standpoint. If comp players are using this or that, it’s not about preferences, they usually use statistical knowledge of what is good and what is not. Take two exact same players, one who care about this and one who does not, I can predict that the one who cares will win more duels than the other one. And more generally, if you just look at the weapon spreadsheet, it’s not hard to understand why some weapons are favoured by the immense majority of the community. They’re just better. Fact.

Taking back my example with DE.50 with proxy, consider something : Devs chosed to put DE.50 in some specific loadouts intentionally. Because they designed it as a poor secondary on purpose, that’s a balance mechanic by itself. No matter what you think, no matter what your preferences are. They’re plenty aware of what is a good weapon and what is not, and they distributed augments accordingly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yYDiX77THpjA-hImu2eRLio-ayOvGnDEeorZgHAieVQ/edit#gid=490808091[/quote]

I absolutely understand your point, don’t think I’m not grasping it, I’m simply stating that I do not believe any weapon is “better” than another, simply that you may be better with it or not. That’s the only point I’m trying to make is that what the wide majority sees as better isn’t what everyone sees. Even if the DE.50 is designed to be a poor secondary it’s definitely my favourite by far, I enjoy it far more than the revolvers and the other ones just don’t have the damage I like. It’s saved my ass many times when I’ve run out of ammo on my primary, hell I’ve even held off three mercs at once with it. I’m just saying that no matter how many stats you look at it doesn’t compare to experience and practice with the weapon, and preference will always outweigh the “better” choice for me.

(Ghosthree3) #31

You wanting to believe that all weapons were created equal and still are doesn’t make it true. It’s even less true than people that believe all people were created and continue to be equal, because it was intentional.

(B_Montiel) #32

[quote=“JesseKomm;78544”]
I absolutely understand your point, don’t think I’m not grasping it, I’m simply stating that I do not believe any weapon is “better” than another, simply that you may be better with it or not. That’s the only point I’m trying to make is that what the wide majority sees as better isn’t what everyone sees. Even if the DE.50 is designed to be a poor secondary it’s definitely my favourite by far, I enjoy it far more than the revolvers and the other ones just don’t have the damage I like. It’s saved my ass many times when I’ve run out of ammo on my primary, hell I’ve even held off three mercs at once with it. I’m just saying that no matter how many stats you look at it doesn’t compare to experience and practice with the weapon, and preference will always outweigh the “better” choice for me.[/quote]

Well ok then (I also have loadouts that are objectively bad but I love to play them in pub games), but you can also agree that balance is here for something :p… This is what I tried to explain. If you leave players to do whatever they want with weapons and augments, you can easily understand that almost everyone will have the same low ass rounded set they will find with no drawbacks at all. This what happen in pretty much every game where there’s too much customization available (COD/BF, LoL… The list is pretty long nowadays…).

(JesseKomm) #33

[quote=“B. Montiel;78554”][quote=“JesseKomm;78544”]
I absolutely understand your point, don’t think I’m not grasping it, I’m simply stating that I do not believe any weapon is “better” than another, simply that you may be better with it or not. That’s the only point I’m trying to make is that what the wide majority sees as better isn’t what everyone sees. Even if the DE.50 is designed to be a poor secondary it’s definitely my favourite by far, I enjoy it far more than the revolvers and the other ones just don’t have the damage I like. It’s saved my ass many times when I’ve run out of ammo on my primary, hell I’ve even held off three mercs at once with it. I’m just saying that no matter how many stats you look at it doesn’t compare to experience and practice with the weapon, and preference will always outweigh the “better” choice for me.[/quote]

Well ok then (I also have loadouts that are objectively bad but I love to play them in pub games), but you can also agree that balance is here for something :p… This is what I tried to explain. If you leave players to do whatever they want with weapons and augments, you can easily understand that almost everyone will have the same low ass rounded set they will find with no drawbacks at all. This what happen in pretty much every game where there’s too much customization available (COD/BF, LoL… The list is pretty long nowadays…).

[/quote]

I know, but those games differ in that you choose everything individually, here with Dirty Bomb we’d at least be restricted to the augment sets we currently have. Though they do have plans on releasing more sets which may or may not provide deeper personalization for our playstyle… the only drawback to more cards is worse RNG for trade ups, but that isn’t really a bad thing since we can always just buy a bronze and be good forever.

(Oridiian) #34

Hey Guys,

This is exactly what I was hoping for - a discussion. In hindsight, You’re all probably right - allowing any weapon on any character (regardless of cost) would detract from the personality of each merc and would be a poor idea.

Moving back to the idea of “personality” though, a few of you have agreed that individual weapon skins would be a good thing. In fact, this is probably highest on my personal list of preferred changes, because every merc only has a dozen-ish possible loadouts. Weapon skins would add alot more variety with zero impact to balance. Plus I think “rare” skins that are unique and different to “common” skins are alot more appealing than “rare” loadout cards that do nothing more than add a colour tint to “common” ones.

Second to that, selecting exactly which weapon you want to use, separate from perks, would be another huge one for me. This is especially the case when some loadouts are forced to use semi-auto vs. burst vs full auto. Would it really be so bad to allow a weapon to have two, or even all three of these shooting styles available, chosen by the player? This is of course still assuming there are only specific weapons available to each merc, to maintain their balance in firepower. Alternatively, if one assumes that full auto > burst > semi, then what about allowing choice for weapons at a particular tier, to select a “lower tier”. Dreiss would stay at aemi-auto only, but what about allowing say, a semi-auto or burst-fire M4A1?

Lastly, hiding talents behind level walls. I agree, it’s not the best thing in the world, but the point I was trying to make is that at the moment there is ZERO player progression. Take Blizzard’s new MOBA, Heroes of the Storm for example. If you play a specific character to level 10, you get access to a special “master” skin that is otherwise unobtainable. As you hit various player levels in general, you get bonuses at certain milestones - at level 5 you get a couple hundred gold (credits), level 10 you get a couple thousand (and so and and so forth).

What if at level 5 you got 5,000 credits for finally escaping the “newbie” servers? What if at level 10 you got a free elite case? If you had separate EXP for individual mercs, you could earn a (unique) gold loadout card at level 10. There are so many possibilities.

Another one that I forgot to mention, was the credit booster packs that you can buy. At the moment, all they do is give you double credits for playing matches, and folks have done the math and figured out it isn’t worth the dollar-to-credit ratio. Now, if you suddenly had incentives for levelling up, like master skins, or credit bonuses, or whatever - you add an EXP boost to the credit booster. Boom! suddenly there is extra value. Another simple one would be to throw in a free elite case with every booster.

I think I’m done for now… I’m looking forward to seeing your comments! =)

Cheers =)

(happyVeneer) #35

I don’t mind the loadout card system that much. It’s not perfect, but then I haven’t seen any perfect system for balanced weapon and perk choice. People above have already touched on the pros and cons.

However, another concern expressed by the OP is the low number of players, and to fix that I think the focus for the time being shouldn’t be on new loadouts, mercs or loadout systems, but on new maps and maybe another gametype or two (well-known gametypes Domination and Capture the Flag should be easy enough to add, and requiring both offense and defense on the same team should make any merc useful). The maps we have so far are for the most part great, but you know them by heart by the time you hit level 5…