Let's Talk About Shotguns...


(PixelTwitch) #1

So let me prefix this post by saying that I am all in favour for KEEPING shotguns in the game as they are currently (for the most part). Yes, I agree the shotguns are strong but I do not believe they are “broken” as many people like to say… Here is why…

Shotguns often get called “Over Powered” or “Broken” in many of the games they appear in. Most of the time this comes down to the feeling that there was nothing you could do to avoid being killed by them. My honest opinion is that people are only thinking about the instance in which they died. Sure, a player with a shotgun is most likely going to do a lot of damage or even kill you if they are within a certain distance. Yes, there will be times where you physically will not have time to react because you have just run into a room, turned a corner or was approached from behind… In game design the act of dying and being killed often comes under the heading of “Counter Play” and shotguns (unfortunately) always manage to fall into the camp of “Bad Counter Play”. Truth is, unless everything in the game is a one shot kill or the TTK is super high, there is very little you can do about it. That however, does not make them overpowered.

One of the biggest complaints is that they should not be a one shot kill and fire as fast. The problem is, mathematically if the shotguns required more than a single shot at super close ranges, or a couple of shots vs heavies and at further distances, The shotgun would be out “DPS” practically, by almost every other weapon in the game. An example would be Sawbones for instance, if he started shooting instantly after the first shot of a shotgun and hit 100% headshots, he would always kill the shotgun Merc before they could fire a second shot. Now, to be fair, no one hits 100% headshots and especially 10ms after being shot at. Normally you would balance around expected hit percentages, Damage per second and Damage over time (Damage over time is the concept of practical damage) but with shotguns these numbers are so limiting.

If a shotgun shoots exactly 1 round per second and each round does 100 damage, in 3 seconds the shotgun does 300 damage (simple right).

However, In 2.97 seconds the shotgun only does 200 damage.

If a SMG shoots 10 rounds per second and each round does 10 damage, in 3 seconds the SMG does 300 damage (see where this is going?)

However, different from the shotgun, in 2.97 seconds the SMG does 290 damage.

If both players have 210hp, technically the SMG user should always win (if they have 100% accuracy)

If every Merc in the game had the same HP and size, this would be a little easier to try and tweak but obviously thats not going to happen. It is also very possible to make it only 1 shot lights and mediums but that would make heavies almost a hard counter. Actually, one of the biggest issues and hardest issues to deal with when it comes to shotgun “Counter Play” is what its like to be shot as a player that has already taken damage. In general shotguns are often tweaked (when removing the one shot kill) to do as much damage as possible without actually killing you. This means that if you as a player has as much as been sneezed on in the last 10 seconds, that shotgun is going to one shot you and possibly at a much greater range then you are used to. I know that I am very much guilty of getting frustrated and calling OP when I die like this.

Now don’t get me wrong, these are just numbers up until now and no aspect of skill and positioning have not been taken into consideration. Once these aspects are considered the picture becomes a little easier to see. Take a look at this video…

//youtu.be/aEky6E2YNWo

So, basically, I shoot a few people in the back and then shoot down onto some people… The shotgun seems very strong and people was getting very angry with me. I actually managed to even pull out Godlike for my trouble. First off, lets just say that at any point during the 3 sprees, someone could have quiet easily killed me if they had batter awareness or aim. Let’s not also ignore the time, skill and foresight that got me into the positions where I was able to kill. The first spree for instance took 7 seconds and lets not get it twisted here… 7 seconds is a very long time in a game this fast. The reasons I manage to pull this off is due mostly to map design, timing and most importantly lack of feedback from the game to players I am shooting. A functional mini map, auto voice shouts, positional audio, hud feedback or VoIP would have likely countered my attempts. Also, due to the players being in a fight with the rest of my team, most of them where low hp (you can see this by seeing how many points I get per kill). This in my eyes, is a prime example of a shotgun NOT being the problem. The final spree where I have the ledge is a little different. That time, I should have died but I only one person even tried to shoot me and he did it rather badly. I stayed in view because I felt safe, shotguns now do hs damage so the height advantage made sense and I knew one player was just reviving. All in all, looks a lot more impressive then it actually is.

So much could have killed very fast… however, due to a mixture of skill, luck and poor game feedback, the shotgun ends up looking like the problem. I am not going to try and say its not frustrating to die to, cause it is. All I can say is that if it was as strong as people make out every noob that boots the game would be going 20/1 KDR and having fun…

Finally, I see a lot of hate towards the shotguns and how they should be removed and/or nerfed but I see very little going towards the Snipers. This is something that interests me because on paper they are far worse when it comes to “Counter Play” and balance in general. I was kinda wondering if it was due to the perception of a shotgun being considered a “low skill” weapon, compared to a sniper that is considered a little more “high skill” but still cannot come up with a definitive answer. Personally I find the sniper much easier to use and much safer also. Take a look at this video…

//youtu.be/kCu3zfw-AUI

I kill a fair few people (get a Godlike again) and yet got very little rage in the chat compared to when using shotguns. I also feel like overall the sniper had a much bigger impact on the game overall as instagibbing people fresh out of spawn leaves them waiting like 22 seconds to respawn. I also find my accuracy to be better at a little bit of range and due to fall off damage I no longer need to concern myself with being so much in cover… If you was to remove the shotguns, snipers would have to follow and I think losing either would be a huge mistake. I even thing that nerfing either of them too much would take away from the game massively.

In conclusion, I honestly feel the main issue people are complaining about when they call out shotguns is poor “Counter Play” and game feedback. I do not believe that they are over powered (at least not to the levels many people on these forums claim) and I would love to hear what everyone else believes.

/me puts on his flak jacket…


(INF3RN0) #2

I think the issue is less to do with shotguns being OP, but rather that shotguns have a low skill curve compared to everything else. The same goes with nader and rhino. Rifles, SMGs, and snipers all require consistency, but shotguns/minigun/grenade launcher/etc are much more forgiving and tend to be mostly situational based. The semi-auto rifles were always on the borderline with how fast you could spam them, but they’ve been getting progressively better with recoil, body damage reduction, and scoping requirements.

I’ve always wanted to try some different mechanics for these weapons rather than removing them, but there’s been almost no attempts at making these weapons fit in with the rest of the game. The closest we came was the excessively skill based grenade launcher, which appeared to have been given up on and turned into a generic spam machine. I’ve been highly disappointed with a lot of the newer weapons simply because the focus seems to be on balancing average performance stats rather than the skill curves on weapon mechanics.

Shotguns would be heaps better with something like an exponential pellet hit% multiplier or consecutive hit multipliers, perhaps even interfering with the targets visual kick or what not. For nader maybe rewarding direct nade hits with increased AoE/damage (also an exponential decay on normal AoE damage), and perhaps including an air-burst triggering alt-fire capability. Rhino could could involve excessive recoil management and perhaps even spread patterns. Anything that involved a higher level of consistency would make these weapons less of a nuisance and still allow them to function differently from every other weapon type. The balancing methods of extreme range dependency, low hp, random spread, etc are plain lazy, and forces these weapon into a completely neutral state where a high skilled player can’t substantially out perform an average player. People are likely more annoyed by the noticeable improvement of some players performance increasing when using these specific weapons that nullify poor play/lacking skill and thrive in the small chaotic map layouts, or just the simple fact that the need for consistency is lacking regardless of who is using them.


(fzl) #3

a agree with inferno…a big problem (specially for me) is that the mercs have different speeds…i must reduce my sens when i play proxy and set the sens higher when i play fragger or thunder…

atm you see only fraggers/thunders , proxys, naders and vassilis on the servers… this mercs are currently op…

not a good way for this game…


(PixelTwitch) #4

I can only half agree with you fzl…

I think it comes down to a matter of perception, Fragger, Thunder, Proxy, Nader and Vassilis in my eyes are not OP but simply frustrating to play against. When I go “TRY HARD” mode I will likely play Bushwhacker, Skyhammer or Sawbones as they are the REAL OP Mercs. However due to their lack of unique identifiers they end up just being classed as the “normal” mercs.

Now please do not think I am accusing you of being bad…
What I also believe is that Fragger, Thunder, Proxy, Nader and Vasseli are “OP” vs lower skilled players.
This is due to the ability for these Mercs to either take advantage of a players poor positioning or aim when it comes to fragger and thunder.

Ironically (like Inferno said) these mercs are also the strongest in the hands of lower skilled players…

Basically they do a lot of damage for their skill requirement but are realistically some of the worst Mercs.
Obviously some of this is just my pure opinion and I lack the data to back it up.

I just know that I do not fear a Nader or a Proxy that I can see…


(fzl) #5

a little example…

i have a Thunder (lvl6) with the auto sniper gun from redeye…!! is this weapon balance?

Or a Aura with this new smg (forgot the name)… so op when he stands with his healing station…

a team based shooter needs for me all weapons on the same Level… and obj based players ( i mean eng plant/defuse recon can hack etc etc…

and i say that for ! “MONTHS” friendly fire…!!!


(potty200) #6

Shotguns are just with the wrong merc size. If someone with experience like myself gets super pissed at the fact someone is sprinting around with proxy, wall jumping and being a ball ache and then almost one shotting me in the face. I DREAD to think what a new player is going to feel about this. I have never noticed people whine about rhino having it. Why? Because it makes a lot more sense to have a heavy with a shotgun.

Proxy should have a sub machine gun with a pistol to help balance her. They are overpowered right now and there is no sugar coating it.


(chippy) #7

For me the big issue is still the inconsistency. 1m behind an opponent you never really know if it will kill or hurt significantly. When I meet a shotgun, i have no idea if I should create some distance or go close since it doesn’t really seem to make a difference.


(Glottis-3D) #8

Make Proxy’s secondary her primary.


(spookify) #9

Great Thread!

Lots to read and in my hungover state I think I briefly caught this…

The two things I do not like about shotgun are the inconsistent damage and the low skill level as Inferno states…

#1) I never know if it is going to take one shot to kill or be killed or 2, 3 or 4 shots…

#2) Personally I would like to see shotguns as a slug based gun… Very easy to balance then and the skill level would be much higher…
2A - Slug HS Damage or Multiplier would be 1.75x… This means that a headshot at close range would insta kill and should explosed the head like a sniper shot…
2B - Make fall off Damage CRAZY like after 10 feet the fall off Multiplier is 2 at 10 yards and 3 at anything else…
- What this means is an insta kill within 10 feet and 2 headshots at 10 to 20 yards and 3 HS at max range…

Again the biggest thing for me is inconsistency with the damage!!!


(Scarhand) #10

I disagree with your statement that the Snipers are a bigger problem than the shotguns. I absolutely dislike one shot kill weapons in any game, and strongly urge SD to not have any in the next game they make. That being said, I have never once complained about the sniper rifles, but have multiple times for the shotguns.

A high-damage with low shot-speed always trumps a fast shot-speed if they have the same DPS. I have no clue why you are trying to make it look the other way around, because this is a well known fact. You can soften with pistol and then immediately kill before they possibly can, or if they are weakened at all win every time. There is only a specific and currently not present situation in which the low-shot speed one would lose.

Also, the shotguns are being balanced for the current beta-tester pool, which has above-average shooting skills. Therefore, even if the shotguns weren’t overpowered already like they are, when the lesser skilled players join, they will find them very overpowered because of the lower skill ceiling they have.

They can be nerfed without becoming irrelevant, and someone really needs to do so.

Edit: and Spookify, doesn’t 2A and 2B make them less consistent?


(Violator) #11

I think Potty nailed the issue pretty much. I remember that game and the jumping around like Tigger on acid was more annoying than actually getting 1-shot. Sniper rifles are more annoying though tbh, especially when ‘corner killed’ by them :mad:


(xdc) #12

change the shotgun from hitscan to projectile (fast) (still close to hitscan in close range) and maybe let the bullets bounce once, in conjuction reduce dmg

make the sniper trail more dense (like a railgun but not as dense) similar to ETQW sniper rifle


(Glottis-3D) #13

make max DMG from SHotgun 80Hp, and delete dmg falloff.
this will bring concistency, and noone will 1shot anyone.
only left tweaking property will be spread.


(Szakalot) #14

Before we talk specifics, it might be a good idea to agree on what shotguns should/shouldn’t be capable of.

In my view, shotguns should be:

  • advantageous over other firearms in small quarters
  • useless in mid-long range
  • not capable of one-shooting full hp mercs (I’d say even for 80hp mercs, but this can be argued)
  • require some skill to use, but its okay if its easier to do damage with shotty vs. smg/sniper.

I agree with the general notion around here that shotties are not OP balance-wise, but (too) easy to use for how damaging they are. Their 1shot nature is not fun to play against though, and has never been, as I saw people complain since months ago. By comparison, I think that QW shotguns were doing their job nicely, its just that the maps were really not fit for a close-combat specialist, making their use very niche. The little-random netcode also prevented their effective use, as at that RoF misses are unforgivable.

In any case, how can we address the frustration players experience when facing shotguns, without altering their power-balance?

My view on this is to implement some of the following:

  • increase recoil - we need some aiming mechanic involved with the shotguns, I’d love if the limiting factor in the shotgun’s use was player’s handling of a huge recoil. Kind of like sniper in W:ET, where being able to pull down the recoil fast could increase the RoF greatly. At the moment aiming with the shotgun is bafflingly trivial (boring to play with/against).

  • increase RoF - I don’t think all shotguns need this change (maybe one shotgun can stay as is). I’m missing something of an automatic shotgun in the game, that can do a lot of damage quickly; but suffers from long reload. Beauty of such design lies in a tactical nature of such a weapon: enemies will be vulnerable when ambushed, but tend to win prolonged engagements. Naturally DPS would have to be balanced, and thus I’m also in favour of…

  • diminishing returns - Its been suggested here and there, and I totally support this: while a single pellet can do (random numbers alert) 10 damage, make two pellets hitting do 19, three 28; etc. Consequence? It will be possible to make shotty reliably do damage in close quarters, without one shotting anyone. Increased RoF can be used to compensate balance wise; together creating a weapon that can deal damage quickly, in a way that is understood by your opponent (no longer fighting for 5 second against shotty-user, having them miss the first few shots, only to be one-shot in the end; just as their HP was almost 0 ), suffers from a clear disadvantage in prolonged engagements - allowing enemies to try to fight a battle of bullet attrition.

  • Ironsights with/ w/o. Currently, using ironsights is pointless; it doesnt increase accuracy, takes the dot off your screen, and slows your character down. It would be nice if ironsighting allowed for 2 different firing mechanics. Perhaps lower RoF but higher accuracy? Or lower RoF but less recoil (character gets a better ‘grip’ on the weapon, as opposed to shooting from the hip) - assuming high recoil changes will be implemented.

What do you think shotties should/n’t be capable of?


(Erkin31) #15

WTF the video… TTK was already too low with shotguns, now it seem to be a pure joke. It’s like the shotguns in COD.

A weapon shouldn’t be able to one-shot without a high skill requirement (railgun in Quake 3 is the good example. One projectile, low firing rate, huge movements speed).


(PixelTwitch) #16

to be fair look at the damage I do (the number of xp you get is the damage)

most of the people I shot where low health.


(INF3RN0) #17

Moving this short discussion from the VIP forum here since it belongs.

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;514817]I actually disagree mate…
I am not seeing any really low skilled players doing any better with a shotgun than they are with any other weapon…

Now, if I am the the low skilled player I could kinda understand. I have been going on major sprees including multiple Godlikes with proxy since the last patch however the KDR and stuff is still the second lowest and damage given is also low. I honestly believe the skill requirement for a shotgun (to do well) is much higher than with snipers and the spammy classes (Thunder, Fragger, Rhino and Nader).

I think what a lot of people are doing, is completely ignoring the skill requirements around things like movement and positioning.

The addition of headshots again has upped the skill in my eyes, the overall body shot damage has been reduced.
better crouched accuracy has been stripped away already.
By reducing spread (latest patch) you actually lower the chance for random inconsistent damage.
Speed on shotguns was also reduced so making quick rushes is not as effective as it once was.
Having played that match with you before Inferno (shotguns are very different in that build) I can say they have been nerfed to the point of uselessness.

Let’s not forget that most of the time when a “noob” one shots a decent player with a shotgun its because the “decent player” has run into them without taking into consideration the shotguns. Sure, corner camping with a shotgun and stuff is frustrating and stuff… Let’s not ignore the fact you can basically corner camp with anyway weapon and still get the kill though… I suppose the way I see it is like this…

Sure shotguns kill you fast and when both of you turn a corner together the shotgun has the advantage and it can be frustrating. However, the majority of the time, when you die to corner campers and back ragers… You was going to die anyway, just not quite as quickly. I still believe the problem is MORE related to perception of balance than it is actually balance.[/QUOTE]

They do actually, as even if they don’t get a great KDR they are outputting much more consistent damage and getting kills they normally would never get. The reason is that tight spread punishes inconsistent aim, so not only is the effort required cut in half with weapons like shotguns and grenade launchers, but it will actually increase total damage output. It’s also why shotguns should work with uniform hitboxes because a cluster of shells doesn’t require that much more effort to land on a head than it does on the body (and no where near as much as other weaponry). Any weapon that is going to do a lot of damage on someone needs to require effort and consistency, not situational encounters. A sniper rifle is in its comfort zone at long range, but compared to a shotgun it’s still way more difficult to use. A wild aimer with a shotgun, grenade launcher, or minigun will still tag you for some pretty significant damage even if they don’t kill you, where in a normal situation you’d just have bullets whizzing by your head. Turning a corner on a good player might mean you’re dead anyway, but that’s pretty weak reasoning no offense.

Now to be clear I simply want to see the shotgun have mechanics that up the consistency requirement and allow the weapon to potentially become more versatile as a result. A shotgun is supposed to do high burst damage, and of course be most effective at close range. The way that is currently achieved has forced the weapon into a limbo state. You’re not going to have anywhere near the same experience using a shotgun outside of a pub because it thrives on that environment. I’d say without a doubt that the majority of players revert to shotguns, nade launchers, miniguns, etc when they are having a difficult time competing with other weapons. The reason that’s bad is because people should want to use different weapons based on different play styles or strategies and they should expect to have to put in the same amount of effort to do well.

Again the point isn’t that shotguns are OP or UP. I think they have plain bad design and could be handled much better to the benefit of the game. For example, a shotgun which outputs damage based on shells hit using a quadratic curve rather than a linear one requires much greater aim consistency. I also believe that the shotgun should provide superior movement capabilities as a general attribute and maybe even some minor piercing damage to allow for realistic multi-kill potential without needing extreme damage. The difference between my argument and most others is that I’m not the type that thinks everyone else I play against is bad, so if I get killed then OP or if I can’t get a kill then UP. This is a much more complex perspective exclusively based around my philosophy that consistency is necessary. People view certain weapons as cheap or gimmicky because they usually are and that’s mostly because their design was taken from another game where cheap/gimmicky design was the basis of all weapon design. What I don’t get is why we’re settling for these kinds of mechanics instead of exploring ideas that would be much more consistent with the ‘hardcore old school fps’ scheme.


(PixelTwitch) #18

I can agree with you on the need for consistency and without a doubt there are many other ways we could look at how the shotgun mechanics work.

However, right now we have a rather large group of people in the main forums, most of whom are respected, wanting them out right removed from the game based on the idea that lower skilled players do better with them. This is what I am trying to debate around whenever I talk about the shotguns.

I would also like to say, I still disagree that lesser skilled players are putting out more damage with them.
Because with the info we have been provided your argument would require that every low skilled player was rolling with the shotgun exclusivly and I cannot believe that is what is happening. Shotguns are some of the lowest weapons when it comes to KDR, DPM and KPM. On top of that, the Merc play time shows that Shotgun Mercs overall are not played all that often. Now, if we could get the figures from the last CC_ load testing and compare them we would get a much better idea as we know the vast majority of the CC_ players were low skilled players and the shotguns have not changed all that much (infact apart from this patch they got much weaker since then).

When I said about you being likely to die anyway I was talking primarily about the “back rage” and “corner camping” scenario. There is no doubt that as a Medium or Light Merc, running around the corner into a shotgun is not likely going to end well if the shotgun player has any reasonable amount of skill.

I also suggested the multipler based on pellets hit in the past and I still do believe that it could well be a valid way of calculating damage. However, I do not believe that the majority of the current player base would accept that. Surely if you was to increase the skill requirement so much you would have to as a very minimum maintain the current damage output at its peak otherwise you would skill block the shotguns out of general play most definitely. Making it more skill based will MAYBE reduce the frustration levels (since everyone seems to be fine with sniper rifles that I personally find easier to use then the shotguns at most ranges). However, I am not convinced that is how people will look at it really.

In short, I don’t believe you can increase the skill requirement by an order of magnitude and only have the same damage output…

Finally, you mention your perspective…
My perspective is not much different, I am looking at it from the point of view that I want millions of people to be playing this game at release because that ends up being good for people like me who plan to create content on the game. I want to balance the desires of the current (mainly hardcore) playerbase with a much more varied public playerbase that this game is going to need to be successful. Completely skill blocking a huge part of the potential audience because a few people do not like how a weapon “feels” to die to, kinda feels like inclusive suicide.

One thing I do want to mention quickly could offer a much more indirect solution…

Mini Map…
Shotguns should have the longest mini map detection range and no ability to silence…
Obviously then you also need to have a functional mini map (unlike the one we currently have)…
If we can give good players more information towards where a shotgun player is, be it via sound, mini map and/or tracers the less likely they are to be ambushed. Hopefully this would reduce frustration and allow them to be part of the game without the rage. The stats are showing that they are not as broken as many people seem to believe and I personally think they are an important aspect of the game. so yea…


(Glottis-3D) #19

multiplier based DMG would make shotguns even more inconsistent.
Now you hit 30, now you hit 50, now you hit 70. with the same range, and almost same shots.


(Szakalot) #20

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;514832]multiplier based DMG would make shotguns even more inconsistent.
Now you hit 30, now you hit 50, now you hit 70. with the same range, and almost same shots.[/QUOTE]

If you increase Rof, add some recoil; and have shots do max 40-50 damage, you could easily make a nice to play shotgun weapon.