Let's talk about Phantom for a moment, again. (A little Thunder and Vasilli too)

(Reddeadcap) #1

I’d like to bring this up from someone who played against and as Phantom upon his release and acknowledge that there were some flaws and he was downright broken, but lets take a gander at the patchnotes from July 22nd looking at some changes done to him.

Phantom

  1. •Phantom’s health has been lowered to 110hp (from 120hp)
  2. •Refractive Armor maximum recharge time increased to 10s (from 6s)
  3. •Taking damage that exceeds remaining Refractive Armor energy will now also eat into health
  4. •Heartbeat Sensor detection no longer disables Refractive Armor, but will still spot Phantom
  5. •Refractive Armor no longer prevents gas damage from eating into health
  6. •Refractive Armor is now slightly more visible when Phantom is moving
  7. •Cloaking/de-cloaking audio is now more audible to other players

Let’s begin by talking about Phantom before the steam release, He was the owner of the Felix rifle and katana, later swapped to just a katana and pistol but finally an SMG, H. Pistol and Katana loadout by default.

  1. His health wasn’t really that much of a problem to anyone, the main complaint was that his Refractive Armor took too much damage, which is true, especially from a single powerful attack/explosion even if his Refractive Armor was almost depleted. There’s also the fact that, just look at him He’s head to toe in armor, 120 health is fitting for him.
  2. Second, Recharge time was increased, which one has to question since his cloak depletes rapidly upon taking damage and moving and moving slowly or rapidly have no benefits aside from being louder and more visible the faster one is moving.
  3. The amount of damage Phantom could shrug off by having even a slither of his cloak left was insane and this was much needed.
  4. Why? Phantom trying to be invisible while detected makes no sense and it actually was a nice touch that his ability could be disabled by other Recon mercs, It’s just the fact that the only one available was Vasilli and too many players never used the sensor was the problem, if Phantom was released along with Redeye or Aimee or after would’ve had a much less climatic backlash in my opinion.
  5. Perfect sense.
  6. I’m not sure if recent changes to it’s visibility have made it just as visible as it was upon release, but the visibility from this patch was a joke.
  7. I have to admit this is loud, like Gilbert Gottfried in the same room loud I’ve actually found myself looking for a Phantom who isn’t even in the same part of the map because this is so much louder than anything except for guns in Underground with the new sound changes.

Here’s somethings overlooked by this update and more recent ones.
Phantom, upon having his health lowered to 110, his speed wasn’t altered at all to match. This means that he still moves as if he had 120HP.

This is the same for Thunder who’s movement speed matches 175 health rather than 160 and Vasilli who still moves as if he had 100 HP but now has 110, making him 20 faster than Phantom at the same health.

Final note, His Refractive Armor really doesn’t fit anything well. It’s too visible when even crouch walking, it’s too loud even while standing still, without the thankfully changed damage absorption it the damage that it absorbs even at full charge leaves Phantom near death and the longer cooldown means it can be reused right away, while there were changes that were necessary I can’t be the only one who thinks too many were done, leaving it rather broken.

I have a suggestion for changing Phantom that is to have his health be 120 but have him move as if he had 100, replacing the shield aspect of his Refractive Armor for one that makes him less visible/audible, handwoven with some text along the lines of “The Refractive Armor he stole, while durable is quite light, letting him move fast for someone as armored as he is.”

(ElDingDong) #2

“Refractive Armor is now slightly more visible when Phantom is moving”- haha, good one SD.

Yes, I agree with you. It is very true that the most basics of these mercs mechanics are broken.

However, Phantom and Thunder don’t fit in like the conventional Recons and Assault mercs. I do not know how these issues can be addressed. Even with your ideas, which seem completely reasonable, will it make these mercs a viable option for teamfights?

Dirty Bomb needs a complete overhaul. Fixing one aspect of one merc might cause something else to break. But I sincerely hope some form of action takes place. There are many discussions in the forums about this, but the Devs are yet to give us some tangible information.

(streetwiseSailboat) #3

Doesn’t Phantom have the same speed as Bushwhacker? I’d like both his speed and health to be increased (From 110 to 120 and from 410 to 420 sort of to make up for his lack of utility).

Decrease the cloak regen time as well because it depletes rather quickly as well.

(Reddeadcap) #4

[quote=“streetwiseSailboat;172602”]Doesn’t Phantom have the same speed as Bushwhacker? I’d like both his speed and health to be increased (From 110 to 120 and from 410 to 420 sort of to make up for his lack of utility).

Decrease the cloak regen time as well because it depletes rather quickly as well.[/quote]

NOPE

Ever since Phantom’s health was decreased from 120 to 110, any changes to a merc’s health hasn’t been given their exact change in health, in other words.
Phantom has 110 health instead of 120, but still moves as if he has 120.
Thunder has 160 health but moves as if he had 175 which is how much he had during testing.
Vasilli has 110 health instead of 100, but still moves as if he had 100.

Thus meaning, for a 110 health merc Phantom moves slow, for a 110 health merc Vasilli moves fast, and Thunder’s health pool is too low for his massive size and speed.

(m86edit) #5

[quote=“streetwiseSailboat;172602”]Doesn’t Phantom have the same speed as Bushwhacker? I’d like both his speed and health to be increased (From 110 to 120 and from 410 to 420 sort of to make up for his lack of utility).

Decrease the cloak regen time as well because it depletes rather quickly as well.[/quote]

they’re reworking phantom, stop suggesting buffs

(BananaSlug) #6

and nader has 110hp speed but she has 120hp, and vasili has 100hp merc speed but he has 110hp, they already broke the hp/speed scale

(terminal) #7

Nader’s fine because she’s an assault merc.

(Reddeadcap) #8

Nope, Nader actually had her speed lowered to match her health on Fletcher’s release.

Nader
•Increased health to 110 hp (from 100) ◦"This is to help her better fulfill her role of clearing out defensive positions which often requires her to expose herself to incoming fire"

•Reduced movement speed by ~2.5% ◦"Matching / compensating for the slight increase in health"

•Increased maximum Grenade Launcher Nade count to 5 (from 4) and reduced cooldown time per Nade to 7s (from 8) ◦"These changes are to partially compensate for the two below, but also makes her a little more effective at clearing out defenses."

•Reduced velocity of grenade launcher projectiles by ~30% ◦"Grenade Launcher 'Nades maintain a similar trajectory but now travel slower, giving victims a little more time to react."

•Increased grenade launcher grenade fuse time to 1.7s (from 1.4s) ◦"This is to compensate for the slower travel time, still giving them a similar overall range."

•Martyrdom can no-longer be cancelled by gibbing Nader before it detonates ◦"Previously Martyrdom became largely useless at close range and was not immediately obvious or easily explained."

•Martyrdom detonation time increased to 0.9s (from 0.7s) ◦"To give players a little more time to escape since they can no longer cancel it by gibbing Nader."

(Amerika) #9

What exactly are you wanting to fix with these changes? The proposed changes only seem to benefit melee only play-style the most which is something SD went away from for obvious reasons.

Also, his armor was ridiculously strong at launch because it allowed him to survive a full headshot from a bolt-action or an airstrike even if it only had 1 point of cloak/hp left as any damage didn’t bleed into his HP pool.

Also, if you are completely still, you can surprise literally anybody in the game even if they are staring right at you. I do it all the time against good players. I have success in those fights because I’m not trying to rely on a melee weapon. I nuke their head with a gun which severely reduces their chances of doing much to me before they die and I typically still have an escape vector and the cloak/shield.

This is my own video, so I hate posting it as it seems like it’s self-promotion, but I feel it’s relevant to the discussion.

(Reddeadcap) #10

[quote=“Amerika;174980”]What exactly are you wanting to fix with these changes? The proposed changes only seem to benefit melee only play-style the most which is something SD went away from for obvious reasons.

Also, his armor was ridiculously strong at launch because it allowed him to survive a full headshot from a bolt-action or an airstrike even if it only had 1 point of cloak/hp left as any damage didn’t bleed into his HP pool.

Also, if you are completely still, you can surprise literally anybody in the game even if they are staring right at you. I do it all the time against good players. I have success in those fights because I’m not trying to rely on a melee weapon. I nuke their head with a gun which severely reduces their chances of doing much to me before they die and I typically still have an escape vector and the cloak/shield.[/quote]
How exactly would it just benefit a melee only playstyle?

It’s more to benefit what one thinks of a cloaking ambusher, either with guns or a strong melee if catching the enemy off guard.
I’ve come across Phantoms that I can hear when they’re just standing still and said that the length or recharge rate of his refractive armor were a bit overkill when addressing changes to him.
I said his refractive armor took way too much damage and the fact that for example Phantom could survive an airstrike with just a slither of it left was cheap, and was great that it was changed, but I also question why do changes to what was the perfect hard counter to Phantom, where other recons could deactivate his cloak by detecting him, which I think we could all agree was overlooked by some people playing Vasilli not using their heartbeat sensors.

Like I said earlier, his health was lowered but speed wasn’t which after Phantom has been a recurring thing with any merc who has had his/her health swapped.
Looking at Vasilli and Phantom, they both have the same health now but Vasilli is 20 faster and smaller hitboxes.
Thunder’s hitboxes and speed match if he was at 170-175 health.

In my opinion If SD had kept Phantom as he was before which was a more silent and longer lasting cloak without a shield effect, an SMG and add some sort of support ability and released Phantom with Redeye or Aimee, people would’ve taken benefit of his one hard counter and the backlash to him would’ve been much less severe.

As for the Katana itself mixed feelings I know Phantom isn’t a melee character, I know he has a gun I know it’s clearly a gimmicky weapon best used on unsuspecting enemies rather that charging at people while cloaked.
I just find it weird that he doesn’t have it in each loadout since no one after his release has it yet, I was seriously expecting Aimee or Redeye to have it also along with the Kukri so we’ll just have to wait for series 2 loadout cases to appear and find the limitations on turning with heavy attacks an ideal balance for the beyblade outbreak of '15.

As for SMGs I really hope the blishlok gets some love in the near future and the Kek and Crotzni really needed some balancing as they were clearly better.

(Amerika) #11

“How exactly would it just benefit a melee only playstyle?”

It helps benefit those who want to melee only more than it does gunplay by a significant amount. Which is why I question your motivations behind your buff suggestions. I also question your viewpoint on how stealthy he is when he’s virtually invisible if he’s sitting still even if you’re looking directly at him and you have to be inches away to hear the hum of the cloak. Only if you’re moving, as if you are trying to melee a lot, is this an issue and nobody should ever get close enough to actually hear your cloak if you’re perfectly still…unless you’re trying to go for melee kills.

I don’t want him to have a Katana in every single loadout. It’s slow to use/gib people with and puts you at a severe disadvantage in a ton of situations. And you also run faster with a knife out (even though you can run with your ability out faster). SD said that in the future other mercs would get it…so it will happen.

There is nothing wrong with the Blishlok IMO. It’s in a really good place right now. I talked about that in the video I linked quite extensively. Especially with Phantom’s gunplay and how he can almost always start every fight with a couple of headshots which translates to huge burst damage with the Blish.

(JJMAJR) #12

The Blishlock could use a bit more range. Like, to 23 meters. But nothing DPS-wise.

The Katana should be distributed to currently existing mercs at this point to replace other melee weapons. For example, Fletcher. He could use a nerf or two, and replacing his Combat Knife and the Stiletto with the Kukri and the piece of shit Katana would be helpful, as his mobility would be hampered somewhat.

I also would like to have some builds show value for their mobility instead of merely being able to take down enemies faster.

(Amerika) #13

[quote=“JJMAJR;175106”]The Blishlock could use a bit more range. Like, to 23 meters. But nothing DPS-wise.

The Katana should be distributed to currently existing mercs at this point to replace other melee weapons. For example, Fletcher. He could use a nerf or two, and replacing his Combat Knife and the Stiletto with the Kukri and the piece of @$!# Katana would be helpful, as his mobility would be hampered somewhat.

I also would like to have some builds show value for their mobility instead of merely being able to take down enemies faster.[/quote]

Fletcher’s mobility wouldn’t change since most people run with stickies out on Fletcher which lets you go faster than if you have a bat/katana/knife out.

Yeah…if the Blishlok was to be buffed it should be only a slight range increase before falloff IMO. It’s ridiculous if you can hit heads with it so a damage increase or even a RoF increase would make it quickly turn into the new meta gun.

(bontsa) #14

@Amerika Since you seem to enjoy discussing about the subject and have very well thought content (watched the video a while ago already), how is your stance on Phantoms ability to exit his cloak instantly? Exactly what you’re often doing in the video, exactly what major amount of actually good Phantoms do, exactly what even I pull off successfully despite having horrendously bad aim. To start dinkin’ em heads out of nowhere.

I feel that is actually the main problem of Phantom; it’s blocking any buffing attempt to the cloak mechanic itself and the thing that rekts aware and unaware opponents alike in pub setting. If this was subject to change i.e making Phantom forced to fiddle his console to exit cloak before attacking, I think cloak could actually be made the positioning / scouting tool it seems originally be designed for. Silent and invisible, maybe even cooldowned so it can be used more often. None of which cannot be done as it is now without making it too powerful.

I really hope SD remembers to think outside of the box with their Phantom rework, instead of just fiddling with numbers like usually. I think with the discussion they’ve participated in about the subject does show though that it’s going to be something slightly bigger.

(Amerika) #15

@bontsa Thanks! And yeah, that has been brought up in the past and it’s a good discussion point IMO. The only way I would personally be OK with Phantom getting a buff to his stealth (harder to see and hear) would be if he had no ability to immediately attack out of cloak. And I’d like for his de-cloak to be something that can be easily heard so it gives players a sporting chance and doesn’t allow him to be a walking god that can quickly murder anybody he chooses when his ability is up (which frustrates people so much that they quit…see Phantom launch). I think that change plus an ability to spot people would be pretty solid and help fix some of his team play issues while also letting him setup for kills in team situations and he’d find use in tournament play.

Personally I love his current play-style as it lets me be completely unnoticed when I want to be crafty and his shield gives me a ton of mobility options both for offense and evasion. Sure, people might see me but they won’t actually damage me when I cross areas most of the time. I treat it like an extra health pool. Some people seem to think that just because you’re sprinting and can be seen it’s “worthless” when it’s far from being worthless and is quite valuable. It’s only worthless if you are upset that somebody saw/heard you running at them while you had a damn sword out instead of shooting them in the back of the head from 30 paces. Many times I’ll turn off my armor and run behind people so they can’t hear me (jumping off of walls can’t be heard despite the grunting you hear on your end). Then I can smoke a few people and the shield is up immediately that lets me evade.

So I really don’t want to see him change much from how he currently is. I think he requires a particular mindset and smart play to be effective. And if you can do that he’s ridiculously effective at killing. If SD can add a way for him to be more of a team player it would fix some of his issues in a 5v5 tournament situation.

(Naonna) #16

What annoys me most at the moment, is that if I spend my cloak to sneak to somewhere, even after a kill or two, I may have to wait a full ten seconds to escape again: not really viable if they’re using mics to call you out.

(bontsa) #17

@Amerika Thanks for the thought sharing. There indeed is usability for him with the currently most efficent playstyle yet it doesn’t bring him to the level of other assaults nor recons in the slightest. I just feel it has so little counterplay against it, which is why it can be used to absolutely stomp pubs and denies buffs to make him more useful for comp. Time will tell what SD decides to go with, maybe they keep what currently is but introduce something else alongside it which would make my opinion different.

@Naonna Do like Amerika shared there; exit your cloak before approaching enemies from behind. You can enclose the distance without humming like a broken industrial fan and you have cloak ready after a kill. I’ve found there are a lot of places to hid “in plain sight” too where you can simply crounch in without cloak and people (in pubs) simply pass you.

(Reddeadcap) #18

@bontsa but that said, What use is Phantom when not cloaking and waiting for someone to pass by and attack when they aren’t expecting? wouldn’t it be better if he could be as effective moving as standing still, Bypassing enemies to actually attack them from behind or make a crossfire between him and a friendly, his health being lowered made little sense but his speed wasn’t altered after his health was and like I said neither were Vasilli nor Thunder’s.

His Refractive armor had a pretty hard counter if other players used other recons but just one was in available, I’m just saying that I get Splash Damage didn’t want a character that cloaks runs up to people taking no damage from a grenade and killing everyone with a melee attack or two, especially with the way old heavy attacks were but that said a little bit too much was done in my opinion.

It’s like how I said a while back as a joke, SD are planning on decreasing the AOE on Fletcher’s stickies since people are complaining about him, but imagine if they would go on an extreme and slap on a bunch of unexpected changes, like one less sticky, longer cooldown, longer arming time, less damage, larger hitboxes, the inability to airburst them, etc.

(bontsa) #19

@Redcap Well the point was to give “room” to make cloak completely invisible and silent in order to allow Phantom reposition himself and create very surprising crossfires. Instead of peek-a-booing a smg headshredder burst from 2m against enemy who is running right at them. Sure someone could use it as you mentioned above, however with how cloak currently is, that tactic is already in use and is only way to actually remain hidden. And is ridiculously effective and exact reason some people are dead-set on that Phantom is op as the counterplay against that is scarce.

I think that kind of change, ofc with added real invisibility, would actually reward more moving playstyle. Put cloak on, reposition without fear of enemies seeing, exit cloak outside audible range behind them.

I never suggested manual decloak alone.

(Naonna) #20

Phantom was over-nerfed.

That’s a big one that most people who play a round or two as him will agree on. - Given that one is (practically) unable to sprint while the cloak is on, while being sneaky and not just using it as a very temporary damage sponge with a ten second cool down of having no ability after, it means re-positioning has to be done quite slowly: via walking.

The walking visibility is fine: it’s the sprinting one which needs fixing. The noise while standing still (ONLY standing still) could be reduced as well: encouraging ambushes.

I’m confused right now at the state of Phantom’s armor. I’m unsure what the intended use of it is now. When he was a sniper, Phantom’s invisibility while standing still made sense: snipers don’t often have to cross long distances. His armor being able to protect him from a single sniper head shot makes sense as well. - This would also explain why every other recon merc counters him. - Protecting their own teammates from his sniper fire.

With Phantom’s use of a closer range SMG, the cloak can’t be used as listed above to the same effect. I’ve noticed that re-positioning is fine assuming no one has seen you, and you have the cloak time required to reach your destination.

The issue arises AFTER a kill. Escaping isn’t always an option unless you’ve already waited for your cloak to recharge: and ten seconds behind enemy lines can feel like an eternity.
If the game’s pace is such that waiting isn’t an option, killing someone will usually pull at least 2 members of the enemy team’s focus fire. - Given that even Vassili has a faster running speed than phantom, and phantom can’t sprint under his loud armor while maintaining invisibility, they’re likely to hunt you down rather easily.

These problems are only in regards to the cloak itself: not phantom’s lack of team play or spotting abilities. - Even making him an engineer-type class could be a bit more valuable. (Given that Pheonix, a medic has his same weaponry, we can hardly treat Phantom as a slaying class on par with fragger or even the other recon classes. The sniper-focused Recons can kill without extreme risk to themselves: red-eye even blocking lines of sight for those who might shoot back at him.

Last point, then I’ll shut up: Phantom was initially released at a time when only Vass could spot him. While i’m aware that Splash didn’t want this to become a rock-paper-scissors type game, it’s rather difficult to ignore that we now have 3 classes to reveal phantom under armor: one only with a glance. - Even proxy mines may count towards this ‘anti phantom’ strategy: alerting an attentive team, or even single Proxy, to his presence.

Sorry for the wall of text. Explain to me why I’m wrong down below. (I know someone will.)
In before someone says “You’re playing Phantom wrong!”