Let's Show Nader Some Loving?

(PixelTwitch) #1

This is likely going to be one of them post that splits the community right down the middle. Already we have people concerned about the amount of spam in the game and others hating that she has martyrdom as an ability. Let me be completely upfront about what you can expect in this post… Yes, I am going to be suggesting she is made stronger and also switch her role from the assault classification to an assault + field ops hybrid. So, let’s not waste any more time and get right on with it…

HEALTH
Currently Nader has 100hp by default, this puts her at the same health as a Vasseli and only 10hp higher than a Proxy. When compared to her utility, speed and optimal combat range, this simply feels odd. I believe she should receive 10hp more bringing her up to 110hp by default and be restricted (if she is not already) from the “Try Hard” augment.

Based on the damage numbers provided to the people over at the wiki, this should increase her survivability by 1 shot on a bunch of weapons. This is important because currently Nader dies in the exact same number of shots as Proxy when using a lot of the most popular weapons at close range.

SPEED
Nothing too drastic here… I feel that Nader should lose a tiny bit more speed while carrying her launcher to slightly negate boosting nades with long jumps and offsetting that extra survivability while using her ability.

NADE HITBOX & DIRECT HIT
The Nades hitbox should be reduced in size to better represent its real size. On the surface this may seem like a Nerf but it would actually make shooting Nades much more reliable without them hitting bits of geometry or team mates. Where this would be a Nerf is shooting in the open or up close, To balance this out I would slightly increase the Direct Hit damage (none explosive) by 10hp bringing its total to 25hp on a direct hit when there is no explosion (Due to range). Keep as is at range.

NUMBER OF NADES + COOLDOWN
So far, we have mainly been talking about small tweaks, now we get onto the good stuff. Nader can now stack a maximum of 4 nades compared to 6 pre Steam beta and 5 at the Steam Beta launch. This combined with relatively low cooldown is resulting in almost always having access to a nade or two but always feeling like you lack the required amount. 4 does not feel like enough of a stack to help clear out entrenched areas due to the low damage and small radius. I feel slightly increasing the cooldown time by around 15%-20% but increasing the max nade stack to 6 would be a smart move. While this would slightly increase “spam” I believe this is a problem caused by 3-4 Naders on a team and not the number of nades available in a stack. Maybe even looking towards having a nade fired pausing the cooldown by X amount of time would also encourage more stacking nades?

MARTYRDOM
Now, I totally understand why this ability can be such a perceived problem and what I am about to suggest is more of a change in the function rather then a buff or nerf. Currently, triggering the explosion is a very quick process that can be cancelled by gibbing the Nader. This is making the ability almost useless in close range and as people are getting better at gibbing, its not all that effective after fighting at medium range either. Currently this is an ability that feels like its effectiveness is either entirely on the Nader in some situations or the enemies mistake in others. This is not the worst thing in the world but it certainly lacks that middle ground. By doubling or even tripling the detonation time but removing the cancel on gib, the ability would have so much more utility and would make suicide strats both more and less effective. More in terms of clearing out defences and bad players but less when it comes to just being able to run into people and spam the activation. I think out of everything suggested so far this is going to be the one that divides the player base the most.

EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE
Most simple suggestion here and is partly related to the Assault - Field Ops thing I mentioned in the intro to this post. I suggest increasing damage done to OBJECTIVES (like the EV) is increased by 50% per nade.

I NEED AMMO!!!
Again, this is linked to the Assault - Field Ops thing. To be blunt, Nader is not and is not likely to ever be as useful as Fragger due to her weapon (SMG vs LMG) and primary ability. This makes her a very hard pick for competitive and really more of a “let’s have some fun” pick for public (even with ALL the suggestions I have made so far). So should she be a Field Ops? Again, I don’t think her current style fits into that role all that well either when it comes to weapon damage output, health and explosive damage onto objectives. However, I do feel she is perfect for that middle ground here. I feel that she should be given SMALL ammo packs (1 clips per pack, 15xp direct hit + extra clip). This allows her to be a bullet hose while waiting for her nades to recharge and be of some use to the team.

The real reason I think this works out is during competitive/drafting. Currently you would take 2 Assaults, 2 Medics and 1 “Required” Merc. If this is an engineer, there is a good chance you would roll with no ammo and if its a EV map on defence you would want to roll with maybe 2 Field Ops meaning less assault brunt. Nader could bridge that gap between Field Ops and Assault picks by offering slightly more utility to the team overall. This could help the game slightly break away from the current meta and in drafting allow for multiple bases to be covered as a bare minimum with a single Merc. Honestly, its really hard to explain all the situations that I have floating around in my head but it just seems to make sense. Too the point, I am struggling to find a single reason why she should not have this ability currently. Baring in mind Phoenix already has 3 abilities.

Well there you go :slight_smile:

(god1) #2

I feel like her nades should instagib if you get a kill with an explosive direct hit.

(Glot) #3

imho this should depend on HP before hit. if its less than 50HP then - yes, instagib!

on topic.

  1. i welcome the idea of cross-class. But i think she should give not ammo, she should give nades. that will make her a real Santa Claus. 4 mercs can give ammo (including Kira) but NO MERC can give you nades. That will make her special.

  2. as i stated on SD forums i would like nader to have secondary fire on grenade launcher to boost several nades and simultaniously shoot them with some heavy spread.

  3. also i do not like that direct hit on any target has a bounce. i want my nades to blow up immidiately on hit. because it is frustrating when being close and having your nade bounce off in some weird direction.

  4. i would like nades to be little bit slower. to make them more skill demanding.

(GregHouseMD) #4

I definitely agree with some of what’s being said here. Nader could really do with some more HP, befitting her role.

I also definitely agree with Martyrdom. It only works when people are careless, or forget to gib you. The window for gibbing Nader after Martyrdom is triggered seems very generous to boot; on several occasions I’ve been gibbed the moment the grenade went off ( with a visible explosions ), and still dealt no damage. Without excessive ping, too, so I don’t know what that is.

I’m not sure what your proposal would do, though. I see the potential for locking down an area for a few seconds, or preventing opponents from disarming/planting for a few seconds, or forcing them to disperse if you rush an entrenched group. I’m just not convinced that’s the way it ought to work.

Finally, I’ve noticed several times that the grenades don’t really behave as you’d expect. I’m not sure if grenade physics is something that could easily be reworked. However, it gets very annoying when you try to bounce a grenade into a room ( by shooting a wall at an angle ), and by some fluke of geometry the grenade bounces back toward you instead. That … shouldn’t be possible. Maybe it has to do with the size of the grenade’s hitbox, as mentioned in the OP.

(B_Montiel) #5

I can’t play her yet (not enough money and not my personnal priority in the unlocking process), but in my mind, nader is almost perfectly fine now. But except the massive area denial it provides, I feel like she is missing something now. Some Humppfffff she should have as a pure fight oriented merc.
Martyrdom, I was worried about it when she has been released, but now, thinking about it, it adds variety into the gibbing process. You need to THINK when gibbing. In my mind, that’s very welcome. People pay more and more attention when gibbing.
Right now, you can cancel an already thrown martyrdom grenade by gibbing the nader who fired it. This interferes with the idea of making the grenade timer longer. It’d be too easy to cancel any martyrdom.
Stupid idea : give her a second ability that allow her to get -50/75% self explosion damage every n seconds, and allow GL jumps :smiley:

(einstyle) #6
  1. 110 hp and Martyrdom not being cancelled but longer activation time - YES
  2. grenade launcher changes - kinda undecided, might be good but could turn out to be to much also
  3. giving her ammo packs - hell naw
(Darkcola) #7

[quote=“PixelTwitch;10405”]This is likely going to be one of them post that splits the community right down the middle. Already we have people concerned about the amount of spam in the game and others hating that she has martyrdom as an ability. Let me be completely upfront about what you can expect in this post… Yes, I am going to be suggesting she is made stronger and also switch her role from the assault classification to an assault + field ops hybrid. So, let’s not waste any more time and get right on with it…

-snip-

Well there you go :)[/quote]

Nader is probably not going to receive any buffs- Think of the debate over the well accepted concept that the demo man from TF2 is OP- period. This has not been ignored by the gaming community of devs.

(Viquel) #8

I can’t gauge the effect 10 HP more would have, nor the speed alterations.

I would really like to see martyrdom useful - it currently is not. I can’t believe martyrdom is going to kill a double-digit figure of players who communicate.
In PUG games, the killing potential is mostly by unfinished businesses and you don’t realize in time what is crawling in the dust. When I play Arty or Skyhammer, I i finish all the dust-bunnies because ammo is no concern :smile:

(Amerika) #9

I actually believe they need to go in reverse. I like how Nader’s nades do not instagib and I think all other explosives should not instagib. Or, at least, Fragger’s nades. It would nerf Fragger without nerfing his playstyle and only slightly decrease his usefulness.

As far as Martyrdom goes I hate it and I don’t think it should be in the game. With that said, the way it’s implemented now makes it at least somewhat useful in a firefight. You go down and you’re near a teammate who is fighting the person who killed you that is on top of you and didn’t gib you with a knife instantly will die every time. That’s pretty good. Increasing the time it takes to blow up but removing the ability to gib them really won’t help much I don’t think and I honestly don’t want the ability to get any better than it is.

I do think Nader needs a bit more HP. She is pretty easy to kill and she can’t engage at range very well. I’d be game for her gaining access to the M4/Timik too.

These would all be good ways to help her out without adding more spam/rng to the game.

(Szakalot) #10

I’ve been playing almost exclusively nader since she came out:

  • +10hp would be nice
  • martyrdom is fine
  • her nades are fine too, maybe slight RoF buff
  • well balanced overall, very hard to score direct hits against good players; but still powerful indoors
(GregHouseMD) #11

How is martyrdom fine as is? It’s only fine if your definition of ‘fine’ is that it’s not a problem at all for people fighting against Nader. It only works if people aren’t skilled enough, or they’re careless ( and even in the latter case they can still make it if they’re fast enough ). It very rarely comes down to your skill with martyrdom, as enemies will always have either the opportunity to run in and gib you, or run away. There’s no window of opportunity where enemies are simply trapped. Increasing the blast radius might fix that, but that could have a host of negative consequences, so I wouldn’t really suggest it.

The most obvious solution, if you ask me, is to make the grenade not despawn if you’re gibbed after triggering it. If necessary, this can be balanced by slightly increasing the delay before martyrdom can be triggered upon being reduced to 0 hp. In this case, enemies in melee range would still be able to gib you to prevent suicide attacks, but it would be more punishing for careless or more distant players.

I don’t know, though. All I know is, as is, martyrdom might as well not be in the game.

(Szakalot) #12

Its situational, but why is that a problem?

If nader charges in with some support, and gets very close to enemies; upon death they have to instagib her or die themselves. This is precious time that could be spent shooting at opponents.

Similarly, if you see her blocking your way, you have to gib her from distance, risk running with the knife or play cat&mouse with the nading ability.

In the end its a small extra ability, what I’d like to see is martyrdom having higher damage against deployables, as it won’t destroy a station you land on top off.

(JPB) #13

It’s clearly explained the effect it would have in the original post…
wtf?

(capriciousParsely) #14

I want more hp to her. And I want her grenades to always explode on enemy contact, regardless of distance. They do 80 damage, which is about 2-3 shots with any other AR weapon at close range, but having 4 grenades and actually aiming them is alot harder to manage. So why should she be punished for it?

Also, grenade needs a smaller hitbox. I keep hitting my teammates and small ledges when I try to lob them through windows. The hitbox is just too big.

Other than that, I’m fine with her.

(GregHouseMD) #15

I’m not sure ‘situational’ is the right word. It’s easily the most situational ability in the game, to the point where it’s very nearly useless. There has to be a way of making it more reliable and rewarding, without necessarily making it too powerful.

(Szakalot) #16

I’m not sure ‘situational’ is the right word. It’s easily the most situational ability in the game, to the point where it’s very nearly useless. There has to be a way of making it more reliable and rewarding, without necessarily making it too powerful.[/quote]

it reliably prioritizes nader as the first gibing target.

This is an ongoing advantage to your team. Everytime nader is being focuse-fired for instagib is an opportunity for that other merc to survive gibbing attempts, and get revived - maybe even a medic?

If you die in small rooms you can often kill the opponents, or at least do some decent damage.

If you die behind a corner, you can time your nade to explode when the opponent comes in.

Admittedly I haven’t played scrims to see how martyrdom fares in organized 5v5s, but on pubs I’d typically get between 2-5 martyrdom kills in the course of the map. Even against really good players.

(Glot) #17

[quote=“Szakalot;16790”]it reliably prioritizes nader as the first gibing target.
[/quote]
and with Phoenix returning to the merc-pool, this can be a real priority battle!
“Shall i die, or Face Phoenix who rises from ashes in a final battle??”

(Amerika) #18

[quote=“snowMonkey;16738”]How is martyrdom fine as is? It’s only fine if your definition of ‘fine’ is that it’s not a problem at all for people fighting against Nader. It only works if people aren’t skilled enough, or they’re careless ( and even in the latter case they can still make it if they’re fast enough ). It very rarely comes down to your skill with martyrdom, as enemies will always have either the opportunity to run in and gib you, or run away. There’s no window of opportunity where enemies are simply trapped. Increasing the blast radius might fix that, but that could have a host of negative consequences, so I wouldn’t really suggest it.

The most obvious solution, if you ask me, is to make the grenade not despawn if you’re gibbed after triggering it. If necessary, this can be balanced by slightly increasing the delay before martyrdom can be triggered upon being reduced to 0 hp. In this case, enemies in melee range would still be able to gib you to prevent suicide attacks, but it would be more punishing for careless or more distant players.

I don’t know, though. All I know is, as is, martyrdom might as well not be in the game.

[/quote]

Martyrdom should not be a good way to get kills. It should not be used as a suicide tactic to encourage players to run into spawns, die and kill everyone immediately. That’s how it was used in the past. Now, if players aren’t fast enough (you only get a second maybe?) then they die if they kill you and you’re at their feet. It’s also not bad when you’re doing a room push and you die in the middle of people similar to how proxy’s suicide in with mines and try to get extra kills to people not paying attention (which happens even to good players).

Enemies should never be trapped. It should always be up to the player to not get hit by it. Martyrdom, in the games it’s in, is considered one of the cheapest and least wanted abilities in all of those games. Yet here it is in DB for some reason. It’s fine where it is and IMO might even be too good. It should only catch non-aware players or super low HP players and that’s it.

(Szakalot) #19

@Glottis-3D “You must spread some likes, before giving them to Glottis-3D again”

@Amerika
Any good player will knife you before you hit the ground, let alone press ‘f’. Martyrdom is in a sweet spot wherein

a) too far away - gibbed by guns
b) too close - gibbed by knife.

You also can’t cancel martyrdom after pressing it, so an opponent running at you with a knife out presents an impossible situation ( you have to start martyrdom or be gibbed, but starting martyrdom will make the opponent run away)

(Amerika) #20

[quote=“Szakalot;16834”]@Glottis-3D “You must spread some likes, before giving them to Glottis-3D again”

@Amerika
Any good player will knife you before you hit the ground, let alone press ‘f’. Martyrdom is in a sweet spot wherein

a) too far away - gibbed by guns
b) too close - gibbed by knife.

You also can’t cancel martyrdom after pressing it, so an opponent running at you with a knife out presents an impossible situation ( you have to start martyrdom or be gibbed, but starting martyrdom will make the opponent run away)[/quote]

Yes, most good players will knife you before it goes off. However, there is always that in between area where you’re close enough to maybe knife or to get away. Sometimes that line is blurry. Also, as we all know, the knife can be anything but consistent so you’ll blow up when you miss something that shouldn’t have missed (love that with revives too).