Let’s talk: The spawn system

(Rex) #21

Getting killed is indeed a punishment, but do you know that you can control when you get killed? The whole selfkill thing is a skill if you didn’t know. It becomes even more important in comp or have you already forgotten this? Beside that the better pub players will use it, too.

[QUOTE=tokamak;458069]Once life matters more the decisions players will have to make will increase in weight which in turn increases the tactical depth of the game.

I want to play a game where suicide is rarely a good strategy. The stakes need to be higher for that to work. A player should only be prepared to take his life if he can take half the other team with him rather than when he happens to be running low on ammo.[/QUOTE]

How would you say a player is useful for a push if he got 10hp? Decisions you make are the depth of game. That’s the real skill.

(Protekt1) #22

[QUOTE=Samurai.;458039]^ I really don’t understand the mentality behind people against the “self kill” idea

The benefit of self killing for the player doing it, is that they are drained of resources, in a position that they can no longer co-ordinate with teammates efficiently to re-stock these resources, and also they are holding a vital position that they need to hold on to as long as they can. The best way to hold on to a position on the map is to have full resources (HP + Ammo)… therefore you choose the most efficient means of maintaining these resources which may be teammates close by or self killing. But self killing only works with a timer… as you do it on 0 so you have no “down time” except when you are running from the spawn back to your position. Its a very legitimate and strategic tactic to employ in comp, and also a necessity to allow this to be carried out.

The alternative perspective is about changing class efficiently… this is a vital aspect of self killing. With a spawn timer on the HUD it can allow teams to role with even more class variation and respond efficiently & dynamically to different setups/problems teams are confronted with throughout a match. Currently if there is a player on the MG that needs a sniper to take down, you find yourself living as long as possible being an inefficient medic until you die in which you then spawn as a sniper and take out the MG. Ideally you want to auto re-role to sniper and take out the MG straight away then respawn back to medic allowing your team to progress as quickly as possible. The self killing + spawn timer on HUD enables you to carry this out and the same applies to re-rolling to defuse objectives etc… it really tests a teams ability to respond to each spontaneous situation.

From the perspective of the person that is fighting someone who has just self killed, what is the problem?.. you are going to fight someone, they kill themselves before you have had the chance to kill them, effectively they have saved you HP+Ammo that you would have had to use to kill them, and they have given up their position allowing you to exploit this opportunity in which they are not there with more resources that you’ve saved from not killing them yourself.[/QUOTE]

I don’t have a problem with self kill, but timing self kill to get an exact respawn with no downtime I do. If you find yourself worthless that is a mistake you took with strategy and planning out which class mix to take or your execution of your strategy… Suicide is fine there but you should take the risk that you won’t instantly respawn or be hit with a flat penalty.

Regarding your third paragraph, it is a problem for the person fighting. You just got yourself an instant respawn and are in a better position (not literally but you are better off than before with no downtime) than before. You wouldn’t suicide unless it was to your benefit. So again, benefiting from suicide. How does that make an esport/competitive game fun to watch? Or to play? In some way you screwed up or your team did and you’re in a bad way so you suicided, instant respawned, now you have your nade back and choice of weapons. Next wave of enemies coming? Eh, just cook that nade you just earned yourself from suicide. Suicide should come at risk and cost, not benefited by an instant respawn time and merely losing your spot on the map.

If it were up to me, I’d add 5 second spawn time to any suicide if the timer were to be displayed on screen. I would also tack on a penalty towards your ultimate abilities or whatever they are called. The game really gives you everything you need to succeed as a team. Being able to suicide and come back in a better way than you were before cuts against teamwork and execution which is why I think it either needs to be a risk (you don’t know the amount of time you’ll have to wait) or a base penalty (like described earlier in this paragraph).

(tokamak) #23

I said:

Managing on the 10hp or being healed is the real skill. A free bail-out and recharge has NOTHING to do with skill.

No certainty on your respawn elevates the punishment of dying. That’s great because it means you will have to find new resources, like for example, your own damn team.

(Kendle) #24

The current arrangement with Objective using a fixed time from when you die and Stopwatch using spawn waves is surely the ideal? Both methods are then used, and there should be little cause for argument as Objective won’t be used in competition and Stopwatch will likely only feature on pubs used by comp players.

For the spawn wave system there needs to be both free use of /kill (which we already have) and an indicator on the HUD (which we don’t), otherwise there’s no point having it. Can’t see how that can be disputed.

As far as “which is best” blah blah there’s no issue there either, because those that favour one system are unlikely to play on servers using the other. I don’t believe for a second that tokamak will find himself playing competitive DB on SW servers, so who cares what he thinks about the spawn system it uses?

(Erkin31) #25

[QUOTE=tokamak;458082]Counterstrike has one life, as does Rainbow six, wouldn’t call those two slow in any shape or form. Rounds are decided in fractions of seconds.
[/QUOTE]

The gameplay of this games are really slow, especially for Rainbow Six. And I say that as being a big fan of Rainbow Six, I spent 125 dollars on the kickstarter of Takedown, which is a spiritual successor of Rainbow Six. And this game was presented by its developer as a “slow paced game”.
I like this, but I also like fast FPS and I search something totally opposed to what is proposed in a slow paced game.
The mechanics of a slow paced game can ruin a fast FPS.

[QUOTE=tokamak;458082]Right now it’s just fast-paced shooting without consequence and THEREFORE without thinking.
[/QUOTE]

On the contrary, a self kill involves some thinking. A bad self kill can cost a lot to the team. The self-kill option is here to play in teamplay and for the objective, and not for its own need (or stats).

(tokamak) #26

You get to have the self-kill option! I’m not arguing against that. It needs to be there to prevent shenanigans of trying to suicide through other means which puts the rest of the team in jeopardy.

I’m arguing against the means to see when your self-kill is of nil or even beneficial consequence to you. If your resources deplete then that’s up to the team. A team that takes care of each other versus a team that doesn’t but simply self-kills whenever they need should not be matched equally.

(viruzz.) #27

[QUOTE=tokamak;458124]You get to have the self-kill option! I’m not arguing against that. It needs to be there to prevent shenanigans of trying to suicide through other means which puts the rest of the team in jeopardy.

I’m arguing against the means to see when your self-kill is of nil or even beneficial consequence to you. If your resources deplete then that’s up to the team. A team that takes care of each other versus a team that doesn’t but simply self-kills whenever they need should not be matched equally.[/QUOTE]

Suiciding to get into the new spawn wave with your teammates was in ET and worked perfectly fine, it’s gives the gameplay a bigger boost then forcing someone to stay around with 10 hp and no team mates. You saw people kill themselves in ET in the very last second while cooking a nade and spawn in the new wave aswel and nobody had problems with that… it’s something that made ET unique aswel as it gives you a lot of strategic possibility’s and easier ways to adapt and try things against opponents.

As I said, it was in ET, and it worked perfectly. So I really don’t get your problem tbh.

(tokamak) #28

Please, you keep misapprehending me. Read the text you’re quoting carefully, not mocking you but it will help the discussion better. The suicide option should be there, if only to prevent people from resorting to cooking nades or rushing into enemy fire (with or without helpful team-mates unknowingly following them or being given away by them).

Self kill should stay.
It’s ugly, I rather wish it was never necessary to do so but there can always be extreme cases where opting out is the best option. And if that arises, people should be able to do it through a command rather than going knoxville on themselves.

Respawn timers need to stay out
IF players should go for the killswitch, and that’s entirely on them, Then they should not have the luxury, the convenience of knowing when the right it is to press it. The risk of sitting out for the FULL respawn time should be entirely on them.

This means that the reason to self-kill should weigh more heavily than the risk of a maximum spawn time. Now what you’re actually paying is the average spawn time, probably 5-6 seconds (that’s the average right?) so even that isn’t that bad. However, what should not ever be the case is a free 0 seconds reset just because that’s the easiest way to replenish yourself.

I already supplied why this is important from a gameplay perspective: life and death needs to weigh heavily in the completion of the objective.

I can also give a reason why this is important from the F2P point of view:

People spend either time, money or both on this game. Each kill is converted to currency which they spend on the development of their personal account. Self-killing is frequently used to keep the honour to yourself and cheat people out of a well-deserved kill. Cornered people gladly tap out because of that. This is not only frustrating, you’re actively stealing online currency from the person.

Now what message does this send from SD to their audiences?

That the player’s time and effort isn’t worth a damn to them. People get to tap out before you get you due share of the results.

This is a side-argument however. It’s the gameplay one that I’m most concerned about.

(viruzz.) #29

[QUOTE=tokamak;458146]Please, you keep misapprehending me. Read the text you’re quoting carefully, not mocking you but it will help the discussion better. The suicide option should be there, if only to prevent people from resorting to cooking nades or rushing into enemy fire (with or without helpful team-mates unknowingly following them or being given away by them).

Self kill should stay.
It’s ugly, I rather wish it was never necessary to do so but there can always be extreme cases where opting out is the best option. And if that arises, people should be able to do it through a command rather than going knoxville on themselves.

Respawn timers need to stay out
IF players should go for the killswitch, and that’s entirely on them, Then they should not have the luxury, the convenience of knowing when the right it is to press it. The risk of sitting out for the FULL respawn time should be entirely on them.

This means that the reason to self-kill should weigh more heavily than the risk of a maximum spawn time. Now what you’re actually paying is the average spawn time, probably 5-6 seconds (that’s the average right?) so even that isn’t that bad. However, what should not ever be the case is a free 0 seconds reset just because that’s the easiest way to replenish yourself.

I already supplied why this is important from a gameplay perspective: life and death needs to weigh heavily in the completion of the objective.

I can also give a reason why this is important from the F2P point of view:

People spend either time, money or both on this game. Each kill is converted to currency which they spend on the development of their personal account. Self-killing is frequently used to keep the honour to yourself and cheat people out of a well-deserved kill. Cornered people gladly tap out because of that. This is not only frustrating, you’re actively stealing online currency from the person.

Now what message does this send from SD to their audiences?

That the player’s time and effort isn’t worth a damn to them. People get to tap out before you get you due share of the results.

This is a side-argument however. It’s the gameplay one that I’m most concerned about.[/QUOTE]

But if the person is frequently tagged he won’t be stealing ‘currency’ as you like to mention it from the person as the selfkill would still give the kill to the person that tagged him the most. That’s how it worked in ET and should still work.

And in my opinion spawntimers do belong in the game, as it was in ET and should be in here aswel. It was one of the biggest competative games and selfkill included with the spawntimers were in there and it worked! Why change a lot to a game that was so big in the esports scene? It appearantly worked really well then, why shouldn’t it work now? There’s no good reason to leave the spawntimers out, it wasn’t bugging anyone back then and shouldn’t even be remotely close to bugging someone now.

(tokamak) #30

That’s just appealing to nostalgia. Just because something was once popular doesn’t mean it can’t be done better. As for the rest, I don’t see any further gameplay-related arguments.

(viruzz.) #31

It was one of the biggest learning strokes during the ET esports scenery. Learning when your opponents are spawning… making tactics based on your spawn waves trying to get a capture done in the last appealing seconds of the enemy spawn time so they spawn at the other side of the map etc. etc.

Instead of a free new ammo / life card it actually was used with a lot of thoughts in it, and not just randomly suiciding yourself because youre low on health. It was used in a lot of tactic based ways and I seriously think it would be very appealing in this game aswel. It was one of the key elements. You had to bare in mind wether you wanted to go in or not, knowing when you spawn also gives the defensive team a better know-how of when they might give a push etc.

It made the game faster at certain points and was used in such way that it became a strong key element in the tactics. For me a definately must-have in this game if you want to get it as succesful as ET was.

(Dragonji) #32

The main difference is that in CS you’ve got 1 life per round, as you said. CS is slow if we’re talking about firefights. Usually camping is the best strategy to win (talking about pub only as I’ve never played this game competitively).

(tokamak) #33

Oh fine, include the opponent spawn wave. No issue in that. Would be an interesting perk gained from hacking something. Would be nice.

As for the rest, my point still stands. Self-killing remains an option, without the certainty that it will be instantly. That means all your arguments about giving everything very careful thought apply more to not showing it than to actually showing it. You need to put more thought into it if it carries an actual risk.

(montheponies) #34

Extending the argument that each life should be so worth living you wouldnt consider suiciding, you end up with the one life to live approach - that is the only meaningful way to make a single life matter, which is kinda opposite to this re-spawnable game. Unless you start adding a lot of real gimmicky things like in-life perks for staying alive a long time…god forbid. Also it isn’t nostalgia to reference relevant gameplay features which previously added depth to a game.

So sick of hearing arguments against features that worked well in RTCW dismissed as somehow being irrelevant. That goes for everything from bloody medic bashing to spawnwaves…

(tokamak) #35

I LOVE growth within the life. Building killstreaks in COD and getting far makes your palms sweat and curse at your pc if your streak gets broken.

Yes please. More of this. Doesn’t need to be as drastic as COD but slight bonuses for each useful thing you do within the life and resetting on death would be wonderful! You would want players to bite their nails on the choices they’re fasing if they didn’t have to keep their hands on the mouse and keyboard.

So sick of hearing arguments against features that worked well in RTCW dismissed as somehow being irrelevant.

Because they don’t relate to the actual gameplay. At least you’re trying to make a case for making life mean less. It’s mostly sentimental but at least you get that this is what it’s all about.

(stealth6) #36

[QUOTE=tokamak;458162]I LOVE growth within the life. Building killstreaks in COD and getting far makes your palms sweat and curse at your pc if your streak gets broken.

Yes please. More of this. Doesn’t need to be as drastic as COD but slight bonuses for each useful thing you do within the life and resetting on death would be wonderful! You would want players to bite their nails on the choices they’re fasing if they didn’t have to keep their hands on the mouse and keyboard.[/QUOTE]

Please, kill me now! Killstreaks are the worst thing that has happened to FPS gaming imo. Hey you managed to get 5 kills in a row, here have another 4 on the house!

(spookify) #37

[QUOTE=tokamak;458031]I dislike any of the antics you just mentioned. Making it more appealing to suicide for ammo or anything really lowers the value of staying alive, keeping others alive and most importantly, team cohesion.

Dying should just never be a good thing. Ever. When you then work from that premise you see lots of features in this game increase in importance.

This is a shooter, don’t make the killing and dying aspect any more frivolous than it already is.[/QUOTE]

False Dying was the biggest thing in ET and RTCW. Killing out for Ammo and also hitting spawn times is huge is SW. You cant have a SW game with out it.

Most players here are ET and RTCW vets and love the old system. (Because it Worked).

I dont like the assist people get when you kill out. Its part of the game to hit full ammo and full HP.

Give me my spawn waves! I need /kill (F3) and I need my ammo!!

(tokamak) #38

Why is hitting the zero timer important? I know the answer seems obvious but there’s much more to it so could you lead me through why exactly this helps the game?

“Doesn’t need to be as drastic as COD but slight bonuses for each useful thing you do within the life and resetting on death would be wonderful!”

(spookify) #39

[QUOTE=tokamak;458173]Why is hitting the zero timer important? I know the answer seems obvious but there’s much more to it so could you lead me through why exactly this helps the game?

“Doesn’t need to be as drastic as COD but slight bonuses for each useful thing you do within the life and resetting on death would be wonderful!”[/QUOTE]

Kill-streaks bonus’s are useless right now with the amount of damage Body Shots do! Any old noob can get kills with spam!

ET people could kill 3 people easy because it took 9 Headshots in 30 - 32 gun clip!
DB I can kill one and maybe (Maybe Get the second) with 10 Headshots! In a 32 Clip that shoots twice as fast!

Doesn’t it sound like something is up!

DB 3 people = 15 Headshots! You kidding me!

(montheponies) #40

I’m uncertain if you’re being serious or baiting - but considering my last post was judged ‘sentimental’ it’s probably the latter. I have no idea of your background, whether you actually played RTCW or it’s lesser cousin W:ET, but the tactical element of selfkilling has been explained ad nauseam. However here’s a few more examples;
a. you can re-group and push or defend as a team - absolutely key to winning a team game like this…
b. you can change class, spawn back and set up your next line of defense. In some maps (eg. beach) missing spawn by a sec or not changing class could result in you sitting out for 40s giving the offense an opportunity to push through a choke point.
c. you can time your rushes to suit your own and the enemies spawntime - no point doing a rush just after the spawn clock has ticked over. Finding out the enemy spawntime could also be used to ensure you put them out of the game for a longer period of time.
d. you could choose to spawnback to a different spawn point (example frostbite) to support/clear the path for the doc carrier.

As for in-life perks, each to their own, I already dont like the randomness of the classes/loadouts - adding in-life perks is just one more random element that makes it just that bit harder to balance things…