Let’s talk: The spawn system

(Musashiii) #1

Hi guys,
I’ve been playing Dirty Bomb for a few weeks now, I’ll try to share my thoughts and ideas over the coming time.
In this topic I want to highlight the spawning system, something that I think is a big flaw right now.

Why is this system bad?
In competitive games randomness should always be avoided.
With this spawning system you cannot know how long it’s going to take before you respawn. While this isn’t the worst thing in the world considering the low spawntimes,
I think the spawntimers in Wolfenstein:ET added a whole new level of strategy and decision-making.
Knowing when to push out for and killing yourself to respawn quickly, or killing someone while he has a “fullspawn timer” can change the dynamic of the game.
You can make better decisions, knowing when you can expect the guy you just killed to be back. Keeping track of spawntimers of yourself and the enemy, was a skilful but rewarding mechanic

But simply adding it would bring a few problems.
First of all the respawntimers are too low for this to be successful.
I yet again want to take a look at Wolfenstein:ET and their (in my opinion) perfect spawning system.
Spawntimers are a lot longer. (around 20-30 on average)
Defenders usually have a longer spawntime so the offensive team can really break through a defense when they kill a few people on a long spawntime.
This is a delicate balance thing, so i wont go in to too much detail.

Less ammo.
Pushing out for a selfkill was useful for respawning with full ammo.
In Dirty Bomb however, you spawn with so much ammo and the Field ops can resupply this with only 1 ammo pack.
This encourages passive play, and camping one spot with and endless amount of ammo.

TL;DR
Remove this spawning system, replace it with the Wolfenstein:ET one.
Adds depth, strategy and ice-cream.

I’ve seen this subject fly around in the forum, but I wanted to explain it a bit better.
Ofcourse these are my thoughts, feel free to disagree or discuss.

~Musashiii

(tokamak) #2

I dislike any of the antics you just mentioned. Making it more appealing to suicide for ammo or anything really lowers the value of staying alive, keeping others alive and most importantly, team cohesion.

Dying should just never be a good thing. Ever. When you then work from that premise you see lots of features in this game increase in importance.

This is a shooter, don’t make the killing and dying aspect any more frivolous than it already is.

(Samurai.) #3

I am not sure Musashiii if you are aware of the 2 different spawn systems that are currently implemented in DB between the Veteran SW and the Casual Obj Servers as what you are asking for (W:ET system) is what we have in the Veteran SW server, except we do not have the spawn timer on the HUD which is a massive part of this system that need’s to be implemented. Without the spawn times of your own being displayed on the HUD and no communication on a pub server from teammates of when you next spawn it is a lot less fun to play on the Veteran server as you have that ‘unknown’ factor right now.

As for spawn times per each objective, they just need to be rebalanced over time as more content is added to the game this balance will constantly be changing.

I would have to disagree with the less ammo part, this is something i really don’t like on public servers having to be even more reliant on terrible teammates trying to gain their attention to hand out some more ammo, it really isn’t fun having a system in which your most effective player can be limited by the worst player on the server if they choose not to hand out ammo from their lack of understanding of the game. In comp it seems do-able, promotes teamplay etc, but being realistic in public servers it just isn’t going to work out like you would want it to.

(Protekt1) #4

Meh, I don’t like the idea of controlling when you will respawn or influencing when an enemy will respawn. If anything it’ll just lead to weird and wayward tactics such as tapping out before an enemy can finish you off just to make the next spawn faster. That in my opinion is always going to be a poor outcome. I think there should be an accompanying penalty to self kill such as a set back in gaining your next ult ability.

(Samurai.) #5

^ I really don’t understand the mentality behind people against the “self kill” idea

The benefit of self killing for the player doing it, is that they are drained of resources, in a position that they can no longer co-ordinate with teammates efficiently to re-stock these resources, and also they are holding a vital position that they need to hold on to as long as they can. The best way to hold on to a position on the map is to have full resources (HP + Ammo)… therefore you choose the most efficient means of maintaining these resources which may be teammates close by or self killing. But self killing only works with a timer… as you do it on 0 so you have no “down time” except when you are running from the spawn back to your position. Its a very legitimate and strategic tactic to employ in comp, and also a necessity to allow this to be carried out.

The alternative perspective is about changing class efficiently… this is a vital aspect of self killing. With a spawn timer on the HUD it can allow teams to role with even more class variation and respond efficiently & dynamically to different setups/problems teams are confronted with throughout a match. Currently if there is a player on the MG that needs a sniper to take down, you find yourself living as long as possible being an inefficient medic until you die in which you then spawn as a sniper and take out the MG. Ideally you want to auto re-role to sniper and take out the MG straight away then respawn back to medic allowing your team to progress as quickly as possible. The self killing + spawn timer on HUD enables you to carry this out and the same applies to re-rolling to defuse objectives etc… it really tests a teams ability to respond to each spontaneous situation.

From the perspective of the person that is fighting someone who has just self killed, what is the problem?.. you are going to fight someone, they kill themselves before you have had the chance to kill them, effectively they have saved you HP+Ammo that you would have had to use to kill them, and they have given up their position allowing you to exploit this opportunity in which they are not there with more resources that you’ve saved from not killing them yourself.

(Musashiii) #6

[QUOTE=Samurai.;458033]I am not sure Musashiii if you are aware of the 2 different spawn systems that are currently implemented in DB between the Veteran SW and the Casual Obj Servers as what you are asking for (W:ET system) is what we have in the Veteran SW server, except we do not have the spawn timer on the HUD which is a massive part of this system that need’s to be implemented. Without the spawn times of your own being displayed on the HUD and no communication on a pub server from teammates of when you next spawn it is a lot less fun to play on the Veteran server as you have that ‘unknown’ factor right now.

As for spawn times per each objective, they just need to be rebalanced over time as more content is added to the game this balance will constantly be changing.

I would have to disagree with the less ammo part, this is something i really don’t like on public servers having to be even more reliant on terrible teammates trying to gain their attention to hand out some more ammo, it really isn’t fun having a system in which your most effective player can be limited by the worst player on the server if they choose not to hand out ammo from their lack of understanding of the game. In comp it seems do-able, promotes teamplay etc, but being realistic in public servers it just isn’t going to work out like you would want it to.[/QUOTE]

Okay, cool I was not aware, will try to test that out soon. My bad

(Kendle) #7

In an objective mode game, with set re-spawns, you either offer players mechanics to use that system as part of the overall strategic aspect of the game (HUD timer + /kill) , or you don’t. If you don’t, why have set re-spawns?

Like Samurai, I’ve never understood the objection to it. In ET one objection was the issue of denying the “killer” his / her deserved XP. Anyone that cares that they lost some XP I don’t want on the server I’m playing on. (XP = spawn of Satan IMO). Other than that what’s not to like about a system whereby the opponent has saved you the trouble (+HP +ammo) of killing them, and put themselves out of position, and allowed you to exploit them not being there?

(stealth6) #8

[QUOTE=Kendle;458042]In an objective mode game, with set re-spawns, you either offer players mechanics to use that system as part of the overall strategic aspect of the game (HUD timer + /kill) , or you don’t. If you don’t, why have set re-spawns?

Like Samurai, I’ve never understood the objection to it. In ET one objection was the issue of denying the “killer” his / her deserved XP. Anyone that cares that they lost some XP I don’t want on the server I’m playing on. (XP = spawn of Satan IMO). Other than that what’s not to like about a system whereby the opponent has saved you the trouble (+HP +ammo) of killing them, and put themselves out of position, and allowed you to exploit them not being there?[/QUOTE]

Although I agree, if there are match style unlocks couldn’t denying people the XP be a pretty annoying feature? (you could argue it being adding another layer of depth, but I don’t think people would like it)

Just thought of another silly idea, turn on FF and let teammates ‘deny’ you. (dota reference) - you’d still need respawn timers though. It could be the new TK revive, “TK no revive”

(ailmanki) #9

[QUOTE=tokamak;458031]I dislike any of the antics you just mentioned. Making it more appealing to suicide for ammo or anything really lowers the value of staying alive, keeping others alive and most importantly, team cohesion.

Dying should just never be a good thing. Ever. When you then work from that premise you see lots of features in this game increase in importance.

This is a shooter, don’t make the killing and dying aspect any more frivolous than it already is.[/QUOTE]

+1

selfkill and respawn was always a strange thing. Its more like a teleporter -lol.

(Kendle) #10

That’s exactly how Urban Terror works, there’s no /kill so team-mates kill each other when they see they’re low on health and the timer is near to 0. It’s an accepted part of the game and no-one moans about it.

(stealth6) #11

[QUOTE=ailmanki;458051]+1

selfkill and respawn was always a strange thing. Its more like a teleporter -lol.[/QUOTE]

You just need a cool backstory to fill in the gaps. For instance the cores that you collect in whitechapel are powersupplies for the respawn ‘machines’. That would also explain why you are collecting them to take over that area (without the cores the enemy can’t respawn anymore and thus the area has been defeated) - This is basically the story from UT3: http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Respawning

It could also just be digital avatars that you are controlling (that would tie in with the blue static effect when you die)

If the only reason why you don’t like the respawn system is because it doesn’t make much real sense then how do you explain lots of other things? Why can only certain people use certain guns? Why can’t I pick up an enemies gun off the floor? How can ammo packs replenish different guns but using one always uses the whole pack? etc

Most of the time when I mention I got an idea from dota, people react with GTFO with ur moba games. That’s why I said ‘crazy idea’ :tongue:

(tokamak) #12

We want a player life to be valuable. It means that each kill and death matters.

(stealth6) #13

Isn’t this counter intuitive to the gameplay design DB is going for? (fastpaced)
If a life has more value then people are going to be a lot more cautious which leads to slow gameplay + camping.

(ailmanki) #14

[QUOTE=stealth6;458055]You just need a cool backstory to fill in the gaps. For instance the cores that you collect in whitechapel are powersupplies for the respawn ‘machines’. That would also explain why you are collecting them to take over that area (without the cores the enemy can’t respawn anymore and thus the area has been defeated) - This is basically the story from UT3: http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Respawning

It could also just be digital avatars that you are controlling (that would tie in with the blue static effect when you die)

If the only reason why you don’t like the respawn system is because it doesn’t make much real sense then how do you explain lots of other things? Why can only certain people use certain guns? Why can’t I pick up an enemies gun off the floor? How can ammo packs replenish different guns but using one always uses the whole pack? etc[/QUOTE]

Yeah well thats true, it has not to be realistic after all.
I liked more the Natural Selection approach. You drain res to respawn, and you loose your own applied upgrades. Kinda your an offspring, not just respawning.

I just liked what Tokamak wrote, it should be more focused on staying alive.

(Erkin31) #15

I don’t like that, I prefer when the objective is more valuable than the player life. Sometimes, a sacrifice is necessary for the victory !

I always liked to use the self kill in ET/ETQW and even in Tribes Ascend.

(tokamak) #16

That´s just playing with words.

The objective determines the victory or defeat and will always be more valuable no matter what. What we’re talking about here is the importance one life will play to securing that objective. By allowing players to know when it’s okay to kill themselves you end up with players throwing out their life whenever it’s convenient to them. Being killed should be a punishment and killing someone should feel rewarding.

Once life matters more the decisions players will have to make will increase in weight which in turn increases the tactical depth of the game.

I want to play a game where suicide is rarely a good strategy. The stakes need to be higher for that to work. A player should only be prepared to take his life if he can take half the other team with him rather than when he happens to be running low on ammo.

I’m not pleading against the option to self-kill. I’m pleading against making it viable in common scenarios. It should be used with utmost reluctance from the player.

(potty200) #17

I did make a topic about spawn times a few weeks/days ago. Feel free to check it out and see if you agree/disagree.

http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/36882-Spawn-waves-and-spawn-times-Part-19

(Dragonji) #18

You way of thinking is basically against fast paced shooter conception tokamak.

(BomBaKlaK) #19

tehre is also this one
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/34361-Spawn-Waves?highlight=spawn+waves

(tokamak) #20

Counterstrike has one life, as does Rainbow six, wouldn’t call those two slow in any shape or form. Rounds are decided in fractions of seconds.

This game needs to rewards fast-paced thinking along with fast-paced shooting. Right now it’s just fast-paced shooting without consequence and THEREFORE without thinking.

It doesn’t matter how fast the combat it, if it doesn’t lead to anything then it could be twice as fast or twice as slower and still be boring as hell.