Legacy servers in response to incompetence


(Meerkats) #21

@Xenithos said:
I can’t spam the agree/like button more. This is the exact same reason Sparks is also outperforming. The people that pick her are abundantly good with her and have been for a while. Also, the changes to her medpacks to discourage selfish Sparks healing isn’t going to change squat. You want to stop selfish Sparks, then you make it so she has a third ability to heal herself back to full instantly/over time like other mercs, and make her packs useless for herself. That’s how you do it. You don’t keep nerfing the healing she gives herself. That only means it takes more packs to heal her to full. You instead put a limit on the healing she can give herself in a set time frame and separate it from the healing she gives other players.
I specifically said I wanted to only mention one reason why I think the patch is awful, but the Sparks change is another item that simply beggars explanation. I agree; the healthpack change does absolutely nothing to discourage selfish Sparks play. It can even be argued the healthpacks aren’t intended for other players regardless because Spark’s first and foremost priority is to generally to keep herself alive. Furthermore, in exchange for her all her amazing other capabilities, she’s supposed to have weak team healing capabilities. That’s the whole point of class balance. Every time you get better at one thing, you should get weaker at something else. A team isn’t supposed to be able to rely on a solo Sparks. This change still doesn’t make her a solo medic, but it does push her a little bit more in that direction as an instant, nearly 50 HP w/ Potent packs is pretty yummy, especially since, again, it is instant. That might even make Sparks better at pocketing a Fragger than Phoenix, making Phoenix even less viable.

As a note, I want to mention I disagree with @Eox on how Fragger is used. An effective Sparks requires a player of pretty high calibre. I’m not even talking about being a good Sparks, simply being an effective Sparks can already be very frustrating, so she is very likely only played by better players to start. I can agree with Spark’s telemetry data likely being skewed, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing because balance decisions should be made based on how well good players play the game, not how everybody plays the game.

I don’t think the same applies for Fragger. First, Fragger has very noob friendly attributes ( high health, good weapons, etc. ), in addition to being the merc most similar to a standard CoD soldier. In fact, he’s not that much different from playing Skyhammer, and therefore a natural advancement. Sure, actually using frags requires a lot more finesse but he’s so straight foward that, at least in my opinion, he should be an attractive option for most players; therefore any resulting telemetry data will not be heavily skewed. Keep in mind Guardian is the biggest threat to Fragger’s playstyle and she’s out in the wild. I think rational people would at least wait to see how Guardian impacts the meta before introducing multiple nerfs targeting the mercs already most impacted by Guardian. I disagree with the notion multiple consecutive Fragger nerfs were made based off bad data or poorly interpreted data.


(doxjq) #22

@B_Montiel said:
They should add a low hp combat merc to see how it stands compared to fragger and co. The current issue balancing fragger in my view holds its roots in the unbalance between low and and high health pool mercs. Except very early during the alpha stage, the game has always favoured mercs with 110 and more generally mercs with at least 120 hp. And the speed gap never caught the health difference back.

So right now, with the pretty low time to kill, fragger will always have a pretty big advantage, and lowering his health pool from 140 to 130 won’t make much difference, except against fire supports.

Set abilities aside (not talking about very ability dependable mercs such as Sparks and Rhino), in a smg range, any merc should have a pretty fair chance of winning, unless that merc is specifically purposed to absorb damage. Thunder is in a pretty good spot for that, but, on the contrary, fragger, with his 1 htk button, will remain too strong whatever they do. If they wanna put back fragger as a tanky merc, they’d have to totally rebuild his grenade. A massive AOE with a guaranteed 70 hp damage in its range would still keep him as a very potent merc.

Its just a way to balance him, but so far, the grenade is too much humpfff with a health pool significantly higher than average. (it was 160 not that far away)

I’ve been wanting this forever. I “designed” a merc a while ago which was practically that. A 90hp kira-like merc with an ability closer to Fragger. A glass cannon front liner with the same weapons as Fragger and a ball bearing grenade that was only capable of damaging people (50hp max damage) but not killing them. The whole idea behind it was to not be OP, but provide some kind of variance and to have an actual fast second DPS flanking style character.


(pumpkinmeerkat) #23

Really just wish we could get more of an explanation than “outperforming”. Also seems like a pub specific nerf which isn’t a great way to balance any “competitive” shooter. Just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me but I guess we’ll have to play and see. Matches without Fragger can be more fun due to the lack of spawn nades not HP.

Rentable servers with full customization options would be great for 1.0 release. The game still NEEDS proper limits and bans for ranked but it doesn’t seem like that is going to happen any time soon :’( DB is marketed as a competitive shooter yet no proper spec, bans, and merc limits for what remains of competitive even? Devs watch and promote competitive events and play PUGs…

I think the new Merc bundles are a great value but they inflate expectations for a F2P game that is nowhere near ready for release or worth $60 to the average FPS player with a popular YouTube channel. Doesn’t bother me and I will continue to play the game regardless but first impressions for 1.0 will be super important for a game that has been in open beta for this long. Just hope as many issues as possible are worked out before then and the game receives as much or more polish than content in the coming months.


(B_Montiel) #24

@doxjq said:

@B_Montiel said:
They should add a low hp combat merc to see how it stands compared to fragger and co. The current issue balancing fragger in my view holds its roots in the unbalance between low and and high health pool mercs. Except very early during the alpha stage, the game has always favoured mercs with 110 and more generally mercs with at least 120 hp. And the speed gap never caught the health difference back.

So right now, with the pretty low time to kill, fragger will always have a pretty big advantage, and lowering his health pool from 140 to 130 won’t make much difference, except against fire supports.

Set abilities aside (not talking about very ability dependable mercs such as Sparks and Rhino), in a smg range, any merc should have a pretty fair chance of winning, unless that merc is specifically purposed to absorb damage. Thunder is in a pretty good spot for that, but, on the contrary, fragger, with his 1 htk button, will remain too strong whatever they do. If they wanna put back fragger as a tanky merc, they’d have to totally rebuild his grenade. A massive AOE with a guaranteed 70 hp damage in its range would still keep him as a very potent merc.

Its just a way to balance him, but so far, the grenade is too much humpfff with a health pool significantly higher than average. (it was 160 not that far away)

I’ve been wanting this forever. I “designed” a merc a while ago which was practically that. A 90hp kira-like merc with an ability closer to Fragger. A glass cannon front liner with the same weapons as Fragger and a ball bearing grenade that was only capable of damaging people (50hp max damage) but not killing them. The whole idea behind it was to not be OP, but provide some kind of variance and to have an actual fast second DPS flanking style character.

I was more talking about reducing fragger’s grenade to this amount of damage. And that partially comes from this : anything below 120hp in the combat and support field is totally useless. Because, even support, is mostly a frontliner class and the speed you get from kira still does not allow her to stand at the same position arty or stoker does.

Same for Proxy, who, in comp oriented games, is total crap compared to the 3 other engineers, because of the -20hp she gets.

Fragger is one of the tankiest merc, with the most straightforward (no matter your skill with it) 1 htk ability. Thats pretty self-explanatory, he can’t have best of both worlds.

If they rise fragger back to a similar health pool than thunder, he would not require a 1 htk grenade to be efficient.


(K1X455) #25

@doxjq said:

I’ve been wanting this forever. I “designed” a merc a while ago which was practically that. A 90hp kira-like merc with an ability closer to Fragger. A glass cannon front liner with the same weapons as Fragger and a ball bearing grenade that was only capable of damaging people (50hp max damage) but not killing them. The whole idea behind it was to not be OP, but provide some kind of variance and to have an actual fast second DPS flanking style character.

Small hitbox like Proxy?


(ARandomLugia) #26

@Guziol said:
Call the waaambulance. Fragger has been terrorizing this game since the dawn of time. If 100% pickrate is really not enough of a sign for you then i’m sorry but the incompetence is clearly pinned in a wrong place here.

100% pickrate and OP AF? Reminds me of Blackbeard from RB:6 when he just released. OP AF, invincible son of a gun that anyone could pickup and absolutely destroy people with.

That doesn’t sum up fragger last time I checked.


(henki000) #27

HP nerf is probably only nerf I accept. I haven’t tried new fragger yet, but I like the update already. Great news for me and other like-minded. Keep that telemetry data flowing and you are making right decicions. Perhaps you could provide some hard data to us, we can have debate about the math and statistics after that. We have been living so long in Fragger era, it’s time to move on. Give other mercs a chance. This nerf is so minimalistic, 10hp? relax people. It barely chances anything. You just have to be more careful with fragger. He will still trample low-hp mercs.

10 internet reputation point bet that Fragger will be in winning team in next tournament.


(Sorotia) #28

@Meerkats said:

@jooshoyes said:
Thing is, they are not saying fraggers role as entry fragger is too strong, otherwise they would have nerfed the nade again. In fact, by buffing his speed, even if it is by 5u/s, is a way of enforcing his playstyle as entry fragger, enabling him to get into combat faster, while making it more easy for two skilled players to have equal chance in a 1v1. If two players have just as good aim as eachother, fragger basically gets a free win in a 1v1 due to his health.
Fragger frags. If you have utility functions, you are not supposed to be able to 50/50 against a Fragger who has zero utility functions. Dude only has one job. If he can’t even do that well, then what is his purpose?

Think about it this way. We both make a character. We both get twenty attribute points to distribute between eight traits. If I drop all twenty points into combat while you drop ten points in healing, eight points in combat and two points into speed, and you are able to 1v1 me half the time, then where did the other twelve points I dropped into combat go cause clearly, they’re useless, and I’m rolling an eight point character.

This is a class-based game. Different classes are supposed to be interdependent.

@Sorotia said:
Is a friend of Neverplayserious: Check
What can I say? Competence is an attractive quality that some people have more of than others.

And whining because they nerfed your favorite toy is a rather unattractive trait you and him share…


(Meerkats) #29

@Sorotia said:
And whining because they nerfed your favorite toy is a rather unattractive trait you and him share…
Lel, I play Blishlock Sawbonez the most. I played M4 Fragger constantly to get my accuracy up for like two months whenever I didn’t need support exp., and now that I’m done with that, Fragger is almost the last merc I pick.

You know nothing about me yet you make assumptions. Pretty unattractive trait there.

@henki000 said:
HP nerf is probably only nerf I accept. I haven’t tried new fragger yet, but I like the update already. Great news for me and other like-minded. Keep that telemetry data flowing and you are making right decicions. Perhaps you could provide some hard data to us, we can have debate about the math and statistics after that. We have been living so long in Fragger era, it’s time to move on. Give other mercs a chance. This nerf is so minimalistic, 10hp? relax people. It barely chances anything. You just have to be more careful with fragger. He will still trample low-hp mercs.
Telemetry data is mostly junk? Balancing purely off telemetry is dumb? Like, yes, telemetry has its uses, but a lot of that is limited to understanding how your maps work. Where the high traffic areas are, where the killboxes are, how players move through your map and how that compares to your expectations. You, yourself, need to understand how weapons and classes interplay for balancing decisions. That’s your job as a competent dev.

Let me give you an example of how telemetry is dumb.

A long time ago, Destiny devs announced their first, massive, competitive weapon balance overhaul, in which they nerfed automatic rifles, shocking every player who was remotely good at competitive because automatic rifles were already one of the worst weapon classes in the game. “But automatic rifles are by far the most used weapon class,” the devs said. “Clearly, they must be outperforming!”

Well, duh, what did you think was going to happen. First, when people begin playing competitive, of course the first thing they’re going to use is the easiest and most familiar weapon, the automatic rifle. Second, when the game launched, there was an absurdly overpowered exotic automatic rifle, the SUROS Regime, that completely threw all of competitive off. Everybody and their mother, if they had two brain cells to rub together, used that rifle. Players developed strategies centered around exploiting that rifle to the maximum extent. That rifle needed like four consecutive nerfs to be brought into line.

Once the SUROS had been nerfed, good players very quickly figured out the kings of Destiny PvP were Midas ( the only good scout rifle ), Hawkmoon, The Last Word and Thorn, and moved to those weapons almost exclusively. But the damage had been done. The telemetry had already been thrown off for the next maybe year, yet the devs decided to use that contaminated data anyway cause they were morons. So instead of The Last Word, Thorn or Midas receiving nerfs, automatic rifles did.

Oh, and Hawkmoon? Hawkmoon is an interesting case because it was a mega rare exclusive to Playstation players meaning it was hardly a blip in telemetry and wouldn’t get any attention for about two years. Not that Hawkmoon was really that amazing ( had meme potential ), but you get the idea.

That’s telemetry for you. Destiny in general is a great example of why balancing via telemetry just doesn’t work.

The nerf to Fragger isn’t 10 HP. It’s 20 HP. That on top of the numerous frag nerfs, and the introduction of Turtle and Guardian. Fragger has never been buffed once except the original change from two frags on 30 s. cooldown to one frag on 17 s. cooldown.

And again, the very biggest possible nerf to Fragger is Guardian, and Guardian isn’t announced. She isn’t planned. She’s out. In the wild. Right now. Any rational, intelligent person would wait to see how Guardian actually impacts the meta and Fragger before nerfing Fragger, one of the mercs most effected by Guardian. That’s common sense.


(Guziol) #30

@ARandomLugia said:

@Guziol said:
Call the waaambulance. Fragger has been terrorizing this game since the dawn of time. If 100% pickrate is really not enough of a sign for you then i’m sorry but the incompetence is clearly pinned in a wrong place here.

100% pickrate and OP AF? Reminds me of Blackbeard from RB:6 when he just released. OP AF, invincible son of a gun that anyone could pickup and absolutely destroy people with.

That doesn’t sum up fragger last time I checked.

“one thing is not as broken as the other was in a completely different videogame therefore it’s balanced”
Nice argument.


(GatoCommodore) #31

foillowing wholly on the telemetry data is just plain wrong way to adjust thing

thats like saying we shouldnt drink water because 100% of humans who drinks water dies
we should only rely to data collection for correlation and not causation.

Fragger is meant to be Combat Oriented Merc
he is supposed to be good on 1v1 or even 1v5 but that is his job.

with fragger no longer sniper proof, pocket medic will have no dominant merc to be healed, support roles like skyhammer wont perform adequately and now the meta is moving to Combat laser sniper.


(doxjq) #32

^ This.


(henki000) #33

@Meerkats

Telemetry data is mostly junk?
Balancing purely off telemetry is dumb?

Do you have proof that telemetry data is junk? Do you have proof that they are balancing purely off telemetry statistic? Looking at dev videos where they explain telemetry system, they also include players opinions and dev opinions. So balance chances are not purely based on telemetry.

Stuff about destiny

Dirty Bomb is not Destiny. They have different devs and decicions. Different mechanics, they arent comparable in my opinion. While Destiny 1 is a pricy piece of junk for console peasants that like to RPG a FPS game, Dirty Bomb is free, competetive and designed for more mature audience. Telemetry isn’t just one thing that every game uses. You can do adapting right or wrong.

The nerf to Fragger isn’t 10 HP. It’s 20 HP.
“Reduced HP to 130 (was 140)”
https://www.dirtybomb.com/news/the-lead-and-iron-update-january-22nd/


(GatoCommodore) #34

@henki000 said:
@Meerkats

Telemetry data is mostly junk?
Balancing purely off telemetry is dumb?

Do you have proof that telemetry data is junk? Do you have proof that they are balancing purely off telemetry statistic? Looking at dev videos where they explain telemetry system, they also include players opinions and dev opinions. So balance chances are not purely based on telemetry.

Stuff about destiny

Dirty Bomb is not Destiny. They have different devs and decicions. Different mechanics, they arent comparable in my opinion. While Destiny 1 is a pricy piece of junk for console peasants that like to RPG a FPS game, Dirty Bomb is free, competetive and designed for more mature audience. Telemetry isn’t just one thing that every game uses. You can do adapting right or wrong.

The nerf to Fragger isn’t 10 HP. It’s 20 HP.
“Reduced HP to 130 (was 140)”
https://www.dirtybomb.com/news/the-lead-and-iron-update-january-22nd/

we dont have proof that the data is crap but what i heard SD’s reasoning for nerfing fragger because pickrate?

it would have been true if its on competitive, but on pub? where the majority of the people is playing the game?


(bushyg) #35

(GatoCommodore) #36

@bushyg said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIlNIVXpIns

hey, im the guy who supposed to derail discussion


(henki000) #37

@GatoCommodore
I quess “pickrate” and “must-pick” have slighty different nuance what comes to implementing balance updates. Are you implying that they should not use telemetry on pub matches?


(GatoCommodore) #38

@henki000 said:
@GatoCommodore
I quess “pickrate” and “must-pick” have slighty different nuance what comes to implementing balance updates. Are you implying that they should not use telemetry on pub matches?

if its because fragger a Must-pick, then you buff/work other Assault like thunder.

im saying is the pub is a whole different environment, so if SD is applying a fix meant for pub based on data gathered on comp scene, its kind of not making sense.


(ARandomLugia) #39

@Meerkats said:
And again, the very biggest possible nerf to Fragger is Guardian, and Guardian isn’t announced. She isn’t planned. She’s out. In the wild. Right now. Any rational, intelligent person would wait to see how Guardian actually impacts the meta and Fragger before nerfing Fragger, one of the mercs most effected by Guardian. That’s common sense.

Actually, Fragger/guardian matchup aint that one sided. Just throwing the nade into the skyshield when it is already up is stupid, but a properly timed nade can easily put a stop to that spam preventing shield whilst it is still charging up or just went down.


(KangaJoo) #40

That part about switching to 6v6 while controversial I totally agree with. A few years ago during closed beta and early open beta we were really wanting the comp ruleset to be 6v6 precisely because everyone was running the same setups all the time and nobody had freedom to try out new team compositions.