Ledge Camping

(Jess Alon) #41

It’s gonna come to a point where they have to play the damn game for you to keep you from griefing. There’s no perfect system.

(Senethro) #42

Its not about whats perfect, its about whats enforceable. Rules are useless if not enforced, either by developers/modders through software or server/league admins through moderation.

I say this as a Carl Gustav afficionado from BC2. I get small shivers of joy every time I push someone to rage in textchat about cg noobs in that game. No such thing as e-honour, all tactics are fair game.

(Mad Hatter) #43

Not saying that’s not true, but it is also rather sad. Sad that unlike actual competitions video games are so often a haven for the vile and trollish. Or rather, video games, just like the internet, bring out the inner douchebag in some people, simply because of the safety that anonymity provides.

(Beermachine) #44

[QUOTE=Bridger;270427]The word you are looking for here is effective. There’s nothing wrong with spawn camping if it is effective at helping you win the game. That is NOT the players fault.

If spawn camping breaks the game because it is boring/easy/overpowered then that’s the developers fault. Don’t avoid spawn camping, spawn camp UNTIL THEY FIX IT.

Or play on a server which house-rules spawn camping out.

Either way, it doesn’t matter in brink because the spawns are protected by auto-turrets which are (I assume) invulnerable.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with this, given that spawn camping in a pub game (especially an SD one) is 99% of the time the result of one team being stacked full of good players and the other full of newbs, ultimately the blame lies in the good players who see this difference and rather than changing sides for balance tend to be too busy jerking off over their K/D ratios :stuck_out_tongue:

(Senethro) #45

Like theres not a high douchebag proportion in anything competitive!

Its about perceptions. Just because you perceive something to be unfair doesn’t place any onus on an opponent to modify his tactics. If you don’t enjoy it, you change server or change game.

If you just make up e-honour rules as you go along about whats fair and whats not then you’re pointlessly cripping yourself and not learning how to play the game. It may be you’re giving up before you’ve found a counter.

(SockDog) #46

Like what?

(Jess Alon) #47

Like the damn aura everyone is griping about.

(Mad Hatter) #48

EDIT: Went of on a little rant there.

My point, I suppose, and I hope I explain this right, is that while it is the developer’s fault for making a broken or unbalanced game, it is your own fault for choosing to exploit their errors. You can’t honestly try to disguise griefing as merely a method of conveying to the developers what needs to be fixed. What it is, and what it has always been, is nothing more than people getting their kicks by taking fun away from other people.

I’m just glad that with Brink, SD seems to have recognized a lot of those anti-fun features and tactics, and either removed them completely (i.e. no one hit kills sans unbuffed Light headshots) or installed strong countermeasures (i.e. the indestructible spawn turrets).

(SockDog) #49

Well personally I’ve said I have no problem with it. I see situations where the sheer amount of customisation on the models can make it hard to discern teams. I understand people saying why not do this, or that or make it optional but frankly if it wasn’t auras it’d be arrows or something other perceived unnecessary indicator.

Given my (often lonely) misgivings on stuff like XP affecting gameplay I find it pretty amusing the level of hysteria over something as simple as making people more visible in game.

(SockDog) #50

[quote=Mad Hatter;270475]EDIT: Went of on a little rant there.

My point, I suppose, and I hope I explain this right, is that while it is the developer’s fault for making a broken or unbalanced game, it is your own fault for choosing to exploit their errors. You can’t honestly try to disguise griefing as merely a method of conveying to the developers what needs to be fixed. What it is, and what it has always been, is nothing more than people getting their kicks by taking fun away from other people.

I’m just glad that with Brink, SD seems to have recognized a lot of those anti-fun features and tactics, and either removed them completely (i.e. no one hit kills sans unbuffed Light headshots) or installed strong countermeasures (i.e. the indestructible spawn turrets).[/quote]

If the exploit has a counter it is a valid tactic. If not its something the developer needs to fix. I don’t think you need to think or explain beyond that unless you’re going to also justify someone picking weapon X and claiming that’s a cheat/cheap exploit weapon or that approach X distance of a spawn is a cheat/cheap exploit.

(Mad Hatter) #51

…but I do think some weapons are cheap/broken, even if I can kill the people using them.

._.

But that’s really more of a balancing issue than an exploit issue. In that case the blame does indeed lie with the developers. You can’t expect the players to not use the most powerful gun in the game. If they don’t they’ll get killed by the people who do!

(Senethro) #52

[QUOTE=Mad Hatter;270475]EDIT: Went of on a little rant there.

My point, I suppose, and I hope I explain this right, is that while it is the developer’s fault for making a broken or unbalanced game, it is your own fault for choosing to exploit their errors. You can’t honestly try to disguise griefing as merely a method of conveying to the developers what needs to be fixed. What it is, and what it has always been, is nothing more than people getting their kicks by taking fun away from other people.

I’m just glad that with Brink, SD seems to have recognized a lot of those anti-fun features and tactics, and either removed them completely (i.e. no one hit kills sans unbuffed Light headshots) or installed strong countermeasures (i.e. the indestructible spawn turrets).[/QUOTE]

Theres a whole bunch of misconceptions here. Firstly, that is exactly how developers find out what needs to be fixed. What do you think goes on in balance testing? Who gripes loudest on the forums?

The other big one is that you can choose to /not/ “grief”. In a broken game (like early patch BFBC2) removing one overpowered weapon would just move attention on to the next and so on down the chain. There was the M60, CG, AN-94, and they all needed to be whacked near simultaneously as together they actually somewhat balanced each other out. Even in a relatively balanced game someone will always have the bigger stick and some people will be offended if its an inch longer instead of a metre.

Which brings back my previous post. You’re acting like theres a metric of whats fair when its entirely subjective and unenforcable. (unless you own the server)

(Mad Hatter) #53

I think I explained it wrong. Yes, I am being subjective, but it doesn’t take a scientific inquiry to be able to tell the difference between good and bad. I for one believe that even in video games there’s no excuse for purposefully trying to take fun away from other players. It’s a personal issue as much as it is a game issue. Because no matter what game it is, griefers are going to look for ways to grief.

I mean, you don’t see spawn-campers spawn-camping because they want spawn-camping to be fixed. No offense, but please don’t pretend that griefers grief for any sort of magnanimous reasons. That’s my biggest issue here. Any sort of bug fixing or problem patching as a result of griefing is nothing more than a coincidental side-effect.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I don’t bear anyone any ill will. I’m actually quite enjoying this little spirited debate. :3

(SockDog) #54

IMO if a game isn’t fun then the teams aren’t suitably balanced. It has little to do with whether one side or the other is doing something you’d deem as bad or lets say unsporting. Ultimately a game that has everyone tipping hats and bidding good day would end up a shambles.

No I feel that despite hating being spawn camped myself, those situations should be responded to with a request to balance teams (either for skill or experience). Simply saying “stop, no fair” is a little childish.

It’s really for this reason that I was disappointed Brink wasn’t going to see a means to smooth team balance with perks/detriments to teams. Instead it seems we’ll just have shorter games and hope the next match isn’t so skewed. Oh well, maybe the next game or in L4D3.

(Jess Alon) #55

I just think it’s good to adjust your own difficulty to challenge yourself. If everyone I’m playing against sucks. Maybe I’ll just play with just my sidearm. Or a less effective weapon. I often handicap myself on purpose against less talented players in order to continually improve my game. Because if I use “cheap” tactics consistently against people who aren’t that good to begin with then I’m probably going to lose my edge and become a less competitive player. But if I’m playing against people who have no qualms about using “cheap” tactics then I’ll beat them at their own game. But for me personally I don’t employ those kinds of tactics unless I run into a situation in which I need to take someone out who is obviously willing to do anything to “win”.

Yet at the same time when I co-op with my friends against AI… well I probably am being cheap because I’m downright mean. But can you be cheap against campaign AI in a video game like borderlands or similar? Using tactics that completely destroy everything quickly with no remorse? If I used the tactics I use on borderlands against human beings I might feel guilty. Because it’s downright cruel the way I play that game.

(Jess Alon) #56

[QUOTE=SockDog;270508]IMO if a game isn’t fun then the teams aren’t suitably balanced. It has little to do with whether one side or the other is doing something you’d deem as bad or lets say unsporting. Ultimately a game that has everyone tipping hats and bidding good day would end up a shambles.

No I feel that despite hating being spawn camped myself, those situations should be responded to with a request to balance teams (either for skill or experience). Simply saying “stop, no fair” is a little childish.

It’s really for this reason that I was disappointed Brink wasn’t going to see a means to smooth team balance with perks/detriments to teams. Instead it seems we’ll just have shorter games and hope the next match isn’t so skewed. Oh well, maybe the next game or in L4D3.[/QUOTE]

Is the L4D community pretty cool? I have L4D2 on xbox and I haven’t started playing online yet.

(SockDog) #57

I really enjoy playing campaign, even with random people. It’s actually a lot of fun working with three others of differing skills and motivations, it adds personality to the coop.

I do however play later at night as daytime/early evening seems to have a higher concentration of idiots who want to do anything but work through to the end of the campaign.

(Bridger) #58

I agree, because this falls under my definition of Griefing too (pursuing your own goals instead of the goals the game sets for you - making the other team mad is not your actual objective).

(Bridger) #59

My definition of griefing is pretty objective. If your actions are in pursuit of your objectives as dictated by the game, it is not griefing. If instead, you are pursuing your own goals (kill my team and piss them off! Beat up on that weak guy! Spawn camp them till they quit even though my team needs me elsewhere!), you are griefing. That seems pretty cut and dry, except for trying to measure people’s motives. In many cases what may look like griefing can be said to be helping the team meet it’s actual objectives along with your own side objectives. (spawn camping, for example).

(Senyin) #60

While you have the freedom to play as honourably as you wish, your opponents have the same freedom not to.
This is my stance. But…you can play the “not so honourable way” and still have good sportsmanship though!

It’s the people that lack sportsmanship + griefers that I prefer seeing shipped off to syberia.
Although I can’t really blame them for growing up without proper social guidence,
I still rather see them leave. Fortunately I do not encounter such people often, not yet
that is… I would hate seeing pc gaming slip into the gutter because of them.

Yes, campers can be annoying. But you can either live with it or counter them.
I prefer the latter.