Ledge Camping

(Jess Alon) #21

I didn’t say I wouldn’t be amused when these kinds of things happen to me. I just feel bad for people who suck at video games.

(Weapuh) #22

some people just don’t learn lol, it does make for an entertaining evening on occasion :slight_smile:

(SockDog) #23

They just need to learn and aiding that is SDs job by making the game more accessible. I don’t think dumbing down a game and its learning curve to the point where being new or just sucking means little is the solution though.

(Jess Alon) #24

worse comes to worse they can play the single player mode and increase difficulty until they are at the hardest one and then go online.

(SockDog) #25

I’d like to see the AI spawn camp and use cheap tactics. But yes taking some time to at least learn the maps and controls can mean when you do go online you’ve got less things to focus on.

(Jess Alon) #26

Most online games don’t let you learn the maps when you’re new… there’s no low difficulty offline mode so you can figure out the layout. You just get thrown to the wolves.

(Bridger) #27

The word you are looking for here is effective. There’s nothing wrong with spawn camping if it is effective at helping you win the game. That is NOT the players fault.

If spawn camping breaks the game because it is boring/easy/overpowered then that’s the developers fault. Don’t avoid spawn camping, spawn camp UNTIL THEY FIX IT.

Or play on a server which house-rules spawn camping out.

Either way, it doesn’t matter in brink because the spawns are protected by auto-turrets which are (I assume) invulnerable.

(Mad Hatter) #28

Have to disagree with the “If you are able to do something, it isn’t your fault if you do it, it’s [insert whoever here]'s fault for not making it impossible.” philosophy. I could go kick a small child in the head. Just because someone hasn’t preemptively sawed my legs off doesn’t mean kicking children is acceptable.

In that same manner, just because you can use grief-inducing tactics in games doesn’t mean you should, even if the developers haven’t made it impossible to do so. And even if they do the griefers are the ones that are always looking for ways to get around the blocks and counters in their attempts to ruin the matches for others. It is generally acknowledged to be an unsportsmanlike and looked-down-upon style of play.

As for ledge camping though, I don’t think it will be an issue. If you can’t shoot the guy directly, a grenade will improve your chances of survival, as will simply taking a detour. Or getting one of your Heavy friends to smoke 'em out.

(Jess Alon) #29

[QUOTE=Mad Hatter;270432]Have to disagree with the “If you are able to do something, it isn’t your fault if you do it, it’s [insert whoever here]'s fault for not making it impossible.” philosophy. I could go kick a small child in the head. Just because someone hasn’t preemptively sawed my legs off doesn’t mean kicking children is acceptable.

In that same manner, just because you can use grief-inducing tactics in games doesn’t mean you should, even if the developers haven’t made it impossible to do so. And even if they do the griefers are the ones that are always looking for ways to get around the blocks and counters in their attempts to ruin the matches for others. It is generally acknowledged to be an unsportsmanlike and looked-down-upon style of play.

As for ledge camping though, I don’t think it will be an issue. If you can’t shoot the guy directly, a grenade will improve your chances of survival, as will simply taking a detour. Or getting one of your Heavy friends to smoke 'em out.[/QUOTE]

+1 But don’t forget. Everything is a tournament match and we are playing to win. So if that child is keeping you from winning at life and making your junk look bigger then by all means you should kick as many children as you can.

(Jess Alon) #30

At least until your legs are sawed off by the developer of… earth.

(Bridger) #31

We’re talking about game rules, not real life. Your example doesn’t apply. If you are a game developer, and you make a game with rules (the code) and then tell players “your objective is to try and get this tank from here to there,” and spawn camping makes that objective very easy, why is it the player’s fault?

In that same manner, just because you can use grief-inducing tactics in games doesn’t mean you should, even if the developers haven’t made it impossible to do so. And even if they do the griefers are the ones that are always looking for ways to get around the blocks and counters in their attempts to ruin the matches for others. It is generally acknowledged to be an unsportsmanlike and looked-down-upon style of play.

But how do you determine what is spawn camping and what isn’t? My definition of spawn camping is when people kill you as you materialize before you’ve even had a chance to get your bearings. This is trivially solved in every single FPS I’ve played in the last few years (except for BF games for some reason?). It’s also solved in Brink (with auto-turrets guarding spawn).

It seems that most people I’ve seen come to mean “shooting me when I leave the protected spawn area.” If we take the later definition, and you say that is unacceptable, what if I move back 30 feet and shoot you when you come around the corner? Is that just as “cheap?” Isn’t that the same issue? I shot you without you having a chance to respond? Do I have to move back another 30 feet for it to not be spawn camping? Where is the line? If you cannot draw a distinction between this 2nd definition of “spawn camping” and “shooting me when I’m not looking” how do you decide what is and what isn’t acceptable?

No one should be held accountable for pursuing the objective of the game (unless they break/bypass the rules of the game, with an auto-headshot cheat for example). If there were rules to protect the spawn and people bypass those rules to spawncamp, then I think it’s something that can be frowned upon.

(Icemonkeyjr) #32

after the first 3 comments this tread ended, bridger said everything needed very well. thats that then.

(DarkangelUK) #33

Agreed, i’ll be honest… it’s a bit of a frivolous a debate.

(Jess Alon) #34

[QUOTE=Bridger;270439]We’re talking about game rules, not real life. Your example doesn’t apply. If you are a game developer, and you make a game with rules (the code) and then tell players “your objective is to try and get this tank from here to there,” and spawn camping makes that objective very easy, why is it the player’s fault?

But how do you determine what is spawn camping and what isn’t? My definition of spawn camping is when people kill you as you materialize before you’ve even had a chance to get your bearings. This is trivially solved in every single FPS I’ve played in the last few years (except for BF games for some reason?). It’s also solved in Brink (with auto-turrets guarding spawn).

It seems that most people I’ve seen come to mean “shooting me when I leave the protected spawn area.” If we take the later definition, and you say that is unacceptable, what if I move back 30 feet and shoot you when you come around the corner? Is that just as “cheap?” Isn’t that the same issue? I shot you without you having a chance to respond? Do I have to move back another 30 feet for it to not be spawn camping? Where is the line? If you cannot draw a distinction between this 2nd definition of “spawn camping” and “shooting me when I’m not looking” how do you decide what is and what isn’t acceptable?

No one should be held accountable for pursuing the objective of the game (unless they break/bypass the rules of the game, with an auto-headshot cheat for example). If there were rules to protect the spawn and people bypass those rules to spawncamp, then I think it’s something that can be frowned upon.[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand why players with your mindset don’t just head back to the objective and continue to protect it if you’re so great at the game.

(Mad Hatter) #35

I wasn’t talking about spawn camping specifically, but more about griefing tactics in general. If a game actively encourages a play style that just really pisses off the other team then yeah, it’s the game’s fault. I was merely saying that there are people who will always seek out the most exploitative and irritating tactics, weapons, etc. and purposely attempt to annoy and infuriate the other team, or even their own on occasion. I have yet to see a game where it was absolutely impossible to be unsportsmanlike. But no matter how hard they have to work at it, the griefers will grief, simply because they enjoy bringing others down.

Also, yeah, a real world analogy is hardly fair, even though in real life there are laws and rules as well that dictate how people should behave, to a degree. The biggest difference then really is that in video games there is very rarely a system that actively punishes “bad” behavior. All people can do is complain. And believe me, that they do. Some of it is just whining, of course, but some of it is legitimate. At that point it is up to the developers to patch the issues. Because I think we all know that there’s no way you’re getting the griefers to stop ruining matches of their own accord.

(Jess Alon) #36

Mad Hatter and Shadowcat. The two most reasonable posters here.

(SockDog) #37

[quote=Bridger;270427]The word you are looking for here is effective. There’s nothing wrong with spawn camping if it is effective at helping you win the game. That is NOT the players fault.

If spawn camping breaks the game because it is boring/easy/overpowered then that’s the developers fault. Don’t avoid spawn camping, spawn camp UNTIL THEY FIX IT.

Or play on a server which house-rules spawn camping out.

Either way, it doesn’t matter in brink because the spawns are protected by auto-turrets which are (I assume) invulnerable.[/quote]

Absolutely agree, as I said it’s SD job to aid players learning but certainly not to remove the need to do so. (also ensuring teams are balanced which is more where spawn camping comes in).

I’m talking pub games here though. Competition games there should be no mercy or cheap moves. :slight_smile:

(Shadowcat) #38

The other main issue with comparing real life to video games is that video games are entertainment. They are designed to be fun. If they arent fun for someone, then that is an error on the part of the designer, as others have said.

On the plus side though, in one hands-on first impression that i read, the guy mentioned that his team was getting pounded into the dirt, but he was still having fun with the game, unlike most other franchises where losing makes you feel helpless and annoyed. So there is hope that SD has really hit the mark in trying to eliminate the feeling of helplessness that defines cheap tactics.

(Jess Alon) #39

[QUOTE=SockDog;270451]Absolutely agree, as I said it’s SD job to aid players learning but certainly not to remove the need to do so. (also ensuring teams are balanced which is more where spawn camping comes in).

I’m talking pub games here though. Competition games there should be no mercy or cheap moves. :)[/QUOTE]

But a lot of features they’ve put into the game to take care of stuff like this are the same things you guys whine about.

(Senethro) #40

If we’re going to have cheerleaders and judges awarding points, I’m going to throw my weight behind Bridger. Griefing is a design or an admin problem, not a player problem.