Ledge Camping

(Jess Alon) #1

I was thinking about this the other day. Do you guys think there will be cheap jerks that just camp near high trafficked ledges to take out lights as they mantle up? Will there be griefers who hang out ready to shoot you in the face when you climb up. Or maybe melee you as you get up knocking you off the ledge and back down below? Could ledge/melee camping ruin fun for lights or will it be more then easy to find another route around and destroy that guy’s life for using a cheap tactic like that if he’s doing it over and over?

Are there any other instances in which someone could grief a player that’s climbing?

To the developers: Is it possible to grief players in the middle of smart movement? How is this handled? I know it’s a high priority to remove that kind of bad behavior from the game.

I know IF I wanted to grief as an opposing team member I’d do it as a medium against lights and I’d ambush them as they climb up ledges. Is that dishonorable? I think so. I’d hate it if someone did that to me.

I’m sure there are plenty of other situations in which someone could take advantage and be a jerk.

Does anyone see this as an issue?

(Bridger) #2

By cheap you mean an easy strategy that is very effective I assume? I don’t like the term because it’s got a negative connotation, which shouldn’t be applied to effective strategies. The point of the game is to find and use the most optimal strategy. If that strategy is easy to implement and thus makes the game boring, then the game is broken.

But most of the time the things people call cheap are not as effective as they think, and can be countered effectively enough.

If this starts happening people will have to be more careful climbing up, maybe throw a grenade up then climb while the enemy is incapacitated. It doesn’t sound that super-effective to me.

Will there be griefers who hang out ready to shoot you in the face when you climb up. Or maybe melee you as you get up knocking you off the ledge and back down below? Could ledge/melee camping ruin fun for lights or will it be more then easy to find another route around and destroy that guy’s life for using a cheap tactic like that if he’s doing it over and over?

Like I said, throw a grenade up and knock him down, then he’ll be at your mercy when you get up there. Doesn’t sound that un-counterable to me. Camping gets a bad rap, as if moving and shooting is the way real men fight! Well in the 1770s lining up in a big field wearing bright targets on your chests was how real men faught too. It was also stupid.

Are there any other instances in which someone could grief a player that’s climbing?

It’s a very odd assertion that someone who is doing their job (defending) is actually griefing. What is your definition of Griefing exactly? My definition of griefing is when someone ignores the game objectives to pursue their own separate goals (kill their entire team, or help the enemy team, etc.). How is defending territory you are supposed to defend considered griefing?

I know IF I wanted to grief as an opposing team member I’d do it as a medium against lights and I’d ambush them as they climb up ledges. Is that dishonorable? I think so. I’d hate it if someone did that to me.

What would you prefer? Invulnerability while climbing? That seems counter-intuitive to me. Sounds to me like you need to read Playing to Win.

(Exedore) #3

Thread done.
:stroggtapir:

(Linsolv) #4

Problem: He’ll be back up before you get there, based on what we’ve seen so far of the wake-up speed of the grenade knockdown.

Y/N

(Humate) #5

Sounds like you need to take the moral highground by throwing a nade.

(Jess Alon) #6

With those suggestions I guess that makes sense. As far as using grenades to supress and advance.

I think it’s griefing if you continually seek and destroy to the point of harrassment the weakest member of the opposing team to “teach them to play better”. Especially if you’re the strongest member of your time. You just sucked the fun out of the game for that person and made them not want to play anymore most likely.

If you are effectively defending an objective. Fine.

If you are somewhere that happens to be a very effective position and it happens to help your team that you’re destroying everyone… because maybe you found a spot no one can get a grenade to but you can still gun them down when they climb that ledge. I don’t know that’s kind of cheap. It’s stops being a fun game when you stack the odds so far in your favor that your opponent has no idea what’s going on.

SD is trying to create a game that pushes away from that kind of playstyle.

(LyndonL) #7

If a person is able to shoot from it, a grenade is able to get them there.

If you suck at timing/riccochet, then get the ability where you can shoot grenades. If they can see you to shoot you, you can see them to shoot them. Problem solved.

(DonkeyDong) #8

This is a non-issue.

Only because there will always be someone who will find any way to kill someone. BC2, All the Call of Duty games (camp or die,… camp at the top of ladders and stairs or die),…

the only issue with this style, is honourability, but come on, we all play to have fun, some people more cheaply then others. I really can’t think of 1 game where someone couldn’t camp a ladder, or a drop point, or a corner, it’s just a matter of game…

The funny way to solve this problem is to put those round mirrors (like quikmarts) around every corner for people to see if someone is going to be there to kill them… But then… you guessed it… we’d be making the game sooooo simple… everyone would be evenly balancedly … unhappy.

The other corny solution would be to make a game without any corners, so everything is rounded in some way or another… :stuck_out_tongue: round corners, round roofs,… lmao

That should be the new motto of the way some games are going with even balancing and the skill balancing,… balancing everyone to be equally unhappy.

Come on, what happened to play and you admit you aren’t as good as others, and have fun trying to get better?

(DarkangelUK) #9

“Fool me once, shame on you… fool me twice, shame on me”

The handy thing about a camper is, he’s always in the same place. If you’re continually killed by someone that doesn’t change position, then you only have yourself to blame.

(Jess Alon) #10

LOL@ Whoever tagged the thread play singleplayer.

(SockDog) #11

Don’t think you can honestly class this as griefing if the opposite team are doing it.
Find another way round and stab the guy in the face.
Chuck a nade as you approach, smart up the wall as it explodes, shoot guy in the nuts.
Use voice comms to ask a heavy on your team to pummel the location (oh wait!).

Lets reserve the term griefing for the geniune idiots on your own team who want to do anything but play the game.

(Bridger) #12

[QUOTE=Jess Alon;270261]With those suggestions I guess that makes sense. As far as using grenades to supress and advance.

I think it’s griefing if you continually seek and destroy to the point of harrassment the weakest member of the opposing team to “teach them to play better”. Especially if you’re the strongest member of your time. You just sucked the fun out of the game for that person and made them not want to play anymore most likely.[/quote]

This matches my description, because the player you are describing is forgoing the actual objectives of the match to pursue their own objective (beat up the weak guy!).

If you are somewhere that happens to be a very effective position and it happens to help your team that you’re destroying everyone… because maybe you found a spot no one can get a grenade to but you can still gun them down when they climb that ledge. I don’t know that’s kind of cheap.

It’s not cheap, it’s broken. This is not the fault of the player who is doing what he is supposed to do (find the most optimal way to achieve the goals of the game), it is the fault of the mapmaker/balance team.

But we cannot argue broken mechanics or maps just yet, we haven’t played it nearly enough :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s stops being a fun game when you stack the odds so far in your favor that your opponent has no idea what’s going on.

I agree, which is why I don’t play broken games. I don’t think poorly of people who exploit broken things in games though, they are doing exactly what they aught to be doing (trying to win the game). In fact, if 90% of the community refuses to do it because it is “cheap” then it won’t get fixed will it? The developers can write it off as not being overpowered because so few people do it. It is in fact your duty to hammer any overpowered strategy as hard as you can, get enough people complaining until they fix it.

On the other hand, if the strategy/mechanic is NOT in fact broken (which is often the case), you will find out how to defeat it when other people beat you.

(Jess Alon) #13

Makes sense. But what about accessability for new players? Not to sound like a wuss. But we want new players to get online so our community can grow and flourish do we not? And once they whet their appetite and get their feet wet then they can get schooled. How is this balanced though?

(Bridger) #14

I’m not sure what you mean? I agree that new players will probably get beat by older players. How does that apply to the rest of the thread?

(SockDog) #15

How far do you take this? It’s one thing ensuring people know clearly where and how they died (Brink’s goal I believe) but totally another to expect the game to compensate for someone being incapable of processing that information to form an alternative tactic.

(Jess Alon) #16

Usually newer players are the ones that haphazardly get slammed by “cheap tactics”. I’m not a “scrub” as your article states. In BFBC2 if I sniper snipes me. I sneak up on that bastard later and stab him in the back of the head. And I usually check that spot again later and stab that idiot again because he’s probably dumb enough to think I won’t come back for him. And I stay aware of his field of vision in the meantime so I can sneak up on him. If a guy’s hiding in a shed with a shotgun. I throw a grenade in there and shoot at him with a long range weapon when he runs away. But it doesn’t mean I don’t feel bad for the level 1 guy that keeps getting killed over and over by the same tactic. And me personally. If I’ve killed someone 4 or 5 times in a row and they couldn’t even hit me with a single bullet. I don’t even bother shooting at them when I see them the 6th time. I hide out and let them run past because it’s pathetic at that point. I’ll let someone less skilled then me tangle with that guy.

Does that make me a scrub? It’s just at some point it feels like you’re kicking a puppy when they can’t even do anything about it. Same reason I won’t spawn camp. Or push them back to the spawn and spawn trap.

(BMXer) #17

I would think the fact that you can shoot while climbing, sliding, mantling, etc pretty much makes this a non issue in most cases. Yes, the “camper” will have many advantages over the climbing or mantling player but the fact that he CAN shoot back makes a tactic like the OP described much less effective… at least thats the way I foresee it :).

(SockDog) #18

Cheap tactics are cheap but that’s part of gaming IMO. I too feel it’s bad sportsmanship to seek out and pick on worse players, especially when it’s to the detriment of the team but I’d also have no problem shooting a new player in the face for 20 minutes if I was defending an objective or choke point. Ultimately it’s really up to the new player to exercise some common sense and beat me.

Your sniper example shows you go back and check for him, are you being cheap by exploting his stupidity to snipe from the same spot?

(Weapuh) #19

Looking forward to seeing some of the funny little cheap tricks people will come up with before the player-base knows how to deal with them. Always good for lols.

(Jess Alon) #20

[QUOTE=SockDog;270318]Cheap tactics are cheap but that’s part of gaming IMO. I too feel it’s bad sportsmanship to seek out and pick on worse players, especially when it’s to the detriment of the team but I’d also have no problem shooting a new player in the face for 20 minutes if I was defending an objective or choke point. Ultimately it’s really up to the new player to exercise some common sense and beat me.

Your sniper example shows you go back and check for him, are you being cheap by exploting his stupidity to snipe from the same spot?[/QUOTE]

No. I only do that on maps where I know the guy is trying hold a choke point and shoot down my team. But yeah in a sense I’m being cheap. But see this guy isn’t a super noob he knows where these spots are. He’s not just running around in the open unaware of his surroundings like so many dudes do their first time online because they think they can behave like it’s campaign mode. And that sniper is also actively killing my team effectively. Things that are not cheap are tricking greedy players that want to knife you from behind by running around a corner hiding in a door way and then knifing them to piss them off. Because they deserve it.