Katana shouldn't "favor the shooter"

(GatoCommodore) #21

@376E1AE459B1 said:
Looks like no one here understands “favors the shooter”, I guess.

When you shoot someone, it doesn’t matter if you were on the guy’s screen yet, it doesn’t matter if he saw you shoot him, you’re the shooter, you’re favored, if on your monitor you saw you shot him, you shot him. That is why, DB being a very fast FPS, you’re often killed past walls. And that is FINE, that’s probably the best way to do it, FOR GUNS.

BUT NOT FOR @$!# SWORDS. I am FINE with a low-latency (like, 30ms, even if that’s already big) Phantom. I am NOT FINE WITH A PHANTOM WITH a 300MS LATENCY.

On your screen his katana didn’t hit you, and you kept your distances well enough, but that doesn’t matter, because on his screen he hit you and you are dead. He’s fast, and that’s not compatible with high latency.
His katana should kill me when I see it touching me, not when I see the tip of the katana a meter away. Yes, that would suck for the high-ping Phantom, but hey, it’s his choice to play on another continent, and we all know he does it for a reason.
And if that’s already how it works, if the katana is already favoring the target, then it’s broken.

And please don’t tell me a bs “lrn skillz” or “just don’t play with high-ping players”.

Netcode handling high-pings isn’t easy to do, and it has to be adapted per event (guns, grenades, etc), & thus for melee as well, especially when it’s not used for backstabbing anymore but becomes a main weapon. I’m just saying it sucks right now.

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its not called “favors the shooter”
its called CLIENTSIDE
dont blame everyone else if you are making a confusing statement.

you didnt know katana has wide front hitreg?
cricket bat too?
both katana and cricket bat also has a bit longer hitreg.

so dont get surprised if it looks like you didnt get stabbed
because you did get stabbed.

(GatoCommodore) #22

@376E1AE459B1 said:

You were fine with phantom upon release, but now he’s too strong?
Bait/10

Do you think people find out exploits right when something is released?
Some are probably lagswitching assholes, some probably once happened to play on another continent’s server (when there’s no other choice) and realized that something specific worked well under high-lag circumstances, and kept doing it.
If a game allows players with high-ping, I think nothing should be done to favor them. Sucks for those who don’t have the choice, but it shouldn’t be possible to use it as a cheat. Playing at 300ms should suck, as it generally does. It’s already one thing that someone can dance in front of you and warp like crazy, making him way harder to shoot, because he well knows what his lag allows him to do.

lag switching dont work on dedicated server.

in dedicated server it works like this

player1: 10 ping

player2:100 ping

player 1 is standing behind a wall and facing the edge of the wall while player 2 walk slowly from behind the wall to shoot player1

player 2 sees player 1 first and open fire immediately while player1sees player2 x second later and then player1 open fire immediately

the server received the player2 reaction after the player1 because player1 has lower ping.
if player 2 put on lag switch he would be dead even longer than previous scenario.

currently the game favours very low pings and box the reaction time of all higher than 100 ping together so they dont suffer against 100 ping very bad.

(B_Montiel) #23

@GatoCommodore said:

@376E1AE459B1 said:

You were fine with phantom upon release, but now he’s too strong?
Bait/10

Do you think people find out exploits right when something is released?
Some are probably lagswitching assholes, some probably once happened to play on another continent’s server (when there’s no other choice) and realized that something specific worked well under high-lag circumstances, and kept doing it.
If a game allows players with high-ping, I think nothing should be done to favor them. Sucks for those who don’t have the choice, but it shouldn’t be possible to use it as a cheat. Playing at 300ms should suck, as it generally does. It’s already one thing that someone can dance in front of you and warp like crazy, making him way harder to shoot, because he well knows what his lag allows him to do.

lag switching dont work on dedicated server.

in dedicated server it works like this

player1: 10 ping

player2:100 ping

player 1 is standing behind a wall and facing the edge of the wall while player 2 walk slowly from behind the wall to shoot player1

player 2 sees player 1 first and open fire immediately while player1sees player2 x second later and then player1 open fire immediately

the server received the player2 reaction after the player1 because player1 has lower ping.
if player 2 put on lag switch he would be dead even longer than previous scenario.

currently the game favours very low pings and box the reaction time of all higher than 100 ping together so they dont suffer against 100 ping very bad.

Unless the dude has over 150 ms ping in which case he can hit you even before you actually see him on screen. So the situation @376E1AE459B1 explained can happen, not only with melee weapons but also with everything else. But regardless, I consider retarded to maintain no ping limit in this game, at least in EU. That would solve this problem and everything related to allowing high latency on servers.

FYI, in the earlier times of DB (roughly around the steam release), the game used to favour high pinger than it already does, to the extent that some US players were actually going on EU clans to get better than they actually are. The issue is minimal since then, especially since the switch of server management between nexon and SD (at least when they work properly).

(bgyoshi) #24

@GatoCommodore said:
http://dirtybomb.wikia.com/wiki/Kira
Upon killing an enemy player with a knife:

Knives to meet you, to meet you, kniiveees!

http://dirtybomb.wikia.com/wiki/Skyhammer
Upon killing an enemy player with a knife:

Knife to meet you, to meet you knife!

But this isn’t “Knife to meet you too!” specifically to Phantom! It’s just a generic thing.

(Muddy Muddy Mud Nade) #25

@ImSploosh said:

@B_Montiel said:

@376E1AE459B1 said:
Besides, the katana shouldn’t be there. Let’s remember how online games used to be. Connections were poor, lag was ok in FPS games, but VS fighting games (Street Fighter) could simply not exist online. Then connections improved, and games like SF finally could exist, but for the simple reason that it’s possible to find 2 players in the same area & play with minimum lag.
In a 10+ people FPS, you just can’t expect everyone to have a low latency, and besides the game accepts crazy high 500ms+ latencies (why??).
WHICH IS WHY FPSes normally don’t feature such close-range large hitbox weapons. Traditionally, melee weapons were used for backstabbing. Lag doesn’t matter there, the enemy didn’t see you coming anyway, and it does make sense to instakill wen stabbing the back.

Your internet obviously never existed prior to the arrival of call of duty.

Either way, I consider Katana being a way better weapon using Kira than Phantom, with good amounts of long jumping instead of cloak. Almost abusive in this case, but you can do pretty much the same thing with the cricket bat with Aura or Proxy. And a face stabbing Phantom is basically a bad Phantom.

Nonetheless, going melee is, no matter the merc you’re using, a bold move. Facing somebody being able to melee you is pretty much your fault.

Cricket Bat Sparks is probably the best. I’m not talking any loadout either, but the first gen loadout with Chopper does some serious damage. Sparks is so fast that they never even see you coming!

I have that card in Containment War and What the Dickens.
The only Containment War I got after playing for a week…

(Muddy Muddy Mud Nade) #26

If you let a Phantom, cloaked or uncloaked, get close enough to even affect you when he’s running straight towards you, you probably deserve to die.
That’s why playing W+M2 Phantom is usually ineffective, because competent players just shoot them before they get close enough to kill them. Like others have said, a good Phantom will just shoot you if this situation occurs, and better Phantoms won’t just run headfirst at someone in the first place, unless they’re sure they can get a stab on them.
And if it bothers you that much, just play mercs that don’t get oneshot by stabs.

(Yes I know there are multiple factors that can go into whether a Phantom getting close to you is their skill, your incompetence/mistake, luck, ping, etc. But in the general scheme of things, a Phantom should not get that close to you without getting mowed down prior, in the situation OP describes. And if it’s the case of ping, you can’t really blame the game for that, and you sure as hell shouldn’t call for the removal of a weapon simply because of ping)

(ImSploosh) #27

@MuddyGrenade said:

@ImSploosh said:

@B_Montiel said:

@376E1AE459B1 said:
Besides, the katana shouldn’t be there. Let’s remember how online games used to be. Connections were poor, lag was ok in FPS games, but VS fighting games (Street Fighter) could simply not exist online. Then connections improved, and games like SF finally could exist, but for the simple reason that it’s possible to find 2 players in the same area & play with minimum lag.
In a 10+ people FPS, you just can’t expect everyone to have a low latency, and besides the game accepts crazy high 500ms+ latencies (why??).
WHICH IS WHY FPSes normally don’t feature such close-range large hitbox weapons. Traditionally, melee weapons were used for backstabbing. Lag doesn’t matter there, the enemy didn’t see you coming anyway, and it does make sense to instakill wen stabbing the back.

Your internet obviously never existed prior to the arrival of call of duty.

Either way, I consider Katana being a way better weapon using Kira than Phantom, with good amounts of long jumping instead of cloak. Almost abusive in this case, but you can do pretty much the same thing with the cricket bat with Aura or Proxy. And a face stabbing Phantom is basically a bad Phantom.

Nonetheless, going melee is, no matter the merc you’re using, a bold move. Facing somebody being able to melee you is pretty much your fault.

Cricket Bat Sparks is probably the best. I’m not talking any loadout either, but the first gen loadout with Chopper does some serious damage. Sparks is so fast that they never even see you coming!

I have that card in Containment War and What the Dickens.
The only Containment War I got after playing for a week…

You are so damn lucky… I got 3 Containment War Vassilis, and another 2 from the most recent renewal of the Containment War event. Also got a bad Nader card that I never use. Thankfully for What The Dickens I got a beautiful Grandeur Redeye with Quick Slash + Chopper on the Beckhill. It’s actually a pretty good card overall, sporting the M9 as a sidearm. Sounds like I’m selling a used car!

Cricket Bat Sparks was life for some people in Execution… Still miss it. :frowning:

(Your worst knifemare.) #28

Cricket Bat Sparks is probably the best. I’m not talking any loadout either, but the first gen loadout with Chopper does some serious damage. Sparks is so fast that they never even see you coming!

I have that card in Containment War and What the Dickens.
The only Containment War I got after playing for a week…

I only got it in bronze… yay first gen crafting week.

(ThunderZsolt) #29

@ImSploosh said:

@B_Montiel said:

@376E1AE459B1 said:
Besides, the katana shouldn’t be there. Let’s remember how online games used to be. Connections were poor, lag was ok in FPS games, but VS fighting games (Street Fighter) could simply not exist online. Then connections improved, and games like SF finally could exist, but for the simple reason that it’s possible to find 2 players in the same area & play with minimum lag.
In a 10+ people FPS, you just can’t expect everyone to have a low latency, and besides the game accepts crazy high 500ms+ latencies (why??).
WHICH IS WHY FPSes normally don’t feature such close-range large hitbox weapons. Traditionally, melee weapons were used for backstabbing. Lag doesn’t matter there, the enemy didn’t see you coming anyway, and it does make sense to instakill wen stabbing the back.

Your internet obviously never existed prior to the arrival of call of duty.

Either way, I consider Katana being a way better weapon using Kira than Phantom, with good amounts of long jumping instead of cloak. Almost abusive in this case, but you can do pretty much the same thing with the cricket bat with Aura or Proxy. And a face stabbing Phantom is basically a bad Phantom.

Nonetheless, going melee is, no matter the merc you’re using, a bold move. Facing somebody being able to melee you is pretty much your fault.

Cricket Bat Sparks is probably the best. I’m not talking any loadout either, but the first gen loadout with Chopper does some serious damage. Sparks is so fast that they never even see you coming!

And she can heal herself as well.

Sure, Kira might get a melee kill, but how does she get away after that? Sparx is the queen of escape

(RectalTerror) #30

its not called “favors the shooter”
its called CLIENTSIDE
dont blame everyone else if you are making a confusing statement.

“clientside” means whatever happens on the… yeah, client’s side. How does that mean “favor the shooter”?
But let me google it for you:

you didnt know katana has wide front hitreg?
cricket bat too?
both katana and cricket bat also has a bit longer hitreg.

so dont get surprised if it looks like you didnt get stabbed
because you did get stabbed.

That isn’t the problem. If that was the problem, I would get stabbed equally by low-ping players. Am I complaining about that? No, I am not.

(RectalTerror) #31

@MuddyGrenade said:
And if it’s the case of ping, you can’t really blame the game for that, and you sure as hell >shouldn’t call for the removal of a weapon simply because of ping)

I am not asking for the removal of a weapon, wtf can anyone read english here?
I am asking it to favor the stabbed instead of the stabber. So that high-ping can’t be abused anymore. What is YOUR reason to favor high-ping players? Maybe that you’re doing the same?

There is so much distance that a phantom can run in (2x, but probably more) 40ms and I’m still ok with that. But several times 200ms, that’s quite a lot for a fast game.
And talking about ping, I’m pretty sure it’s broken for some servers. On some servers everyone shows a low ping, while you can see people warp all over the place, and you get all of the bullets in your head at once. That too isn’t normal.

(Cletus_VanDamme) #32

High ping is an advantage now?

(Press E) #33

As others have said, you need to learn how to properly counter a phantom, ping doesn’t matter if you’re far enough away. The katana is so easy to avoid, especially as a small fast merc (and the only ones that can be one-shotted by it), that there’s no way it would warrant an overhaul of DB’s networking system.
And believe me, I doubt it’s as easy as just flicking a button.

Don’t necro a thread that hasn’t been used since the 4th just because you got stabbed by another phantom. No one is reporting the same issues as you, which should be enough to tell you that it isn’t DB’s fault.

And I know this wasn’t your point, but in case anyone was thinking it, high ping is NOT an advantage. As someone who used to play with horrid internet before finally upgrading it a year ago, there was never a time that I did better with high ping. It’s easy for people to get shot slightly around a corner and assume that high ping is the only reason they can do anything, but it’s not the full story.
Yes, you can occasionally land shots you wouldn’t have otherwise. But that also comes with not being able to track enemies properly, deployables and throwables being broken, teleporting, hits not registering, and sometimes not even being able to reload. Playing with high ping is infuriating, and it should never be considered beneficial to anyone.

(neverplayseriou) #34

High ping has always been an advantage in db.

(pumpkinmeerkat) #35

The Katana is cool but silly and is mostly annoying because it encourages players to go melee only which is generally ineffective and annoying for both victims and teammates. Phantom is 100% more effective when played (correctly) with his primary and ability.

Why quick slash was added to katana loadouts in second edition I’ll never understand. Why makes something that is already mildly annoying more spammy and less precise?

(Cletus_VanDamme) #36

@neverplayseriou said:
High ping has always been an advantage in db.

Oh yes.

It’s so much of an advantage to not be able to use your ability or shoot properly.

(Press E) #37

@pumpkinmeerkat said:
The Katana is cool but silly and is mostly annoying because it encourages players to go melee only which is generally ineffective and annoying for both victims and teammates. Phantom is 100% more effective when played (correctly) with his primary and ability.

Why quick slash was added to katana loadouts in second edition I’ll never understand. Why makes something that is already mildly annoying more spammy and less precise?

Melee in DB can actually be a very good strategy, simply because a lot of people aren’t used to countering it. It’s very easy to avoid a melee attacker though, so it actually takes a fair bit of skill to be effective with a melee weapon. Knowing when to switch weapons and when to strike, etc. Of course melee only is stupid, but just because lots of people can’t use it to its fullest, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist.

(RectalTerror) #38

@STARRYSOCK said:
It’s easy for people to get shot slightly around a corner and assume that high ping is the >only reason they can do anything, but it’s not the full story.

oh yeah? explain to us what the full story is

(Muddy Muddy Mud Nade) #39

“Besides, the katana shouldn’t be there. Let’s remember how online games used to be. Connections were poor, lag was ok in FPS games, but VS fighting games (Street Fighter) could simply not exist online. Then connections improved, and games like SF finally could exist, but for the simple reason that it’s possible to find 2 players in the same area & play with minimum lag.
In a 10+ people FPS, you just can’t expect everyone to have a low latency, and besides the game accepts crazy high 500ms+ latencies (why??).”

@376E1AE459B1 said:

@MuddyGrenade said:
And if it’s the case of ping, you can’t really blame the game for that, and you sure as hell >shouldn’t call for the removal of a weapon simply because of ping)

I am not asking for the removal of a weapon, wtf can anyone read english here?
I am asking it to favor the stabbed instead of the stabber. So that high-ping can’t be abused anymore. What is YOUR reason to favor high-ping players? Maybe that you’re doing the same?

There is so much distance that a phantom can run in (2x, but probably more) 40ms and I’m still ok with that. But several times 200ms, that’s quite a lot for a fast game.
And talking about ping, I’m pretty sure it’s broken for some servers. On some servers everyone shows a low ping, while you can see people warp all over the place, and you get all of the bullets in your head at once. That too isn’t normal.

If you say that a weapon shouldn’t be there, how am I not supposed to assume you want that weapon to be removed?
Are you accusing me of being some kind of ping abuser? My good sir, I play on Ethernet just like a lot of us here, my Internet connection is just fine.
I don’t work at SD so I don’t know if the ping on some servers are broken. I think most of those cases might just be minor lag spikes for some people, but I wouldn’t know.
Anyways, if the game is supposed to favor the “stabbed” over the “stabber” I feel like it wouldn’t matter if you the stabber has extreme ping. If we really did change it to the way you want it, people would robbed of a lot of kills that they earned, which is the whole point of Dirty Bomb. If the “shot” had bad ping, then it would basically be impossible to kill that person because they would still be glitching all over the map.
Bad ping affects everyone, not just the people getting killed.

(pumpkinmeerkat) #40

@STARRYSOCK said:
Melee in DB can actually be a very good strategy, simply because a lot of people aren’t used to countering it. It’s very easy to avoid a melee attacker though, so it actually takes a fair bit of skill to be effective with a melee weapon. Knowing when to switch weapons and when to strike, etc. Of course melee only is stupid, but just because lots of people can’t use it to its fullest, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist.

Newb Phantoms can go melee only all they want it’s just not the best way to use the class IMO. Most of the melee hit boxes need attention but I don’t think melee should be made less effective in any way. I do wish quick slash had never been added to katana loadouts though.

High ping is a disadvantage and also annoying to play with and against. Since SD took full control of the game and servers I do think trade kills are far more common, even melee vs. bullets between two players with <100 ping. Not sure if something changed with the lag compensation values or what. Tick rate is still the same I assume.