K/D/A?

(bgyoshi) #41

[quote=“hypnotoad;200429”]If you’re a medic and get under like 10 kills per stopwatch half you’re pretty much a failure and a reliability to the team.

You can see it in basically every single pug game and even in comp games. If the medics have just a few kills while the other guys perform as expected, the team with the medics who can’t kill will usually lose. Sitting behind a fragger with paddles out is just a recipe to lose, you got a weapon with 130dps for a reason.[/quote]

I suppose I should clarify I’m talking about a round of objective/half a round of stopwatch. And I’m pretty sure there are a million threads discussing how bad PUGs/Comp and 5v5 play in general are for play style, considering less than 1/2 if not 1/4 of all active players play 5v5 regularly. It doesn’t make sense to discuss gameplay that won’t be implemented by most players.

[quote=“Szakalot;200420”]sorry, but its you who needs to learn. The better the players involved the harder it is to pull off a good revive.

Good players will likely gib the body before you can revive, even if you tap the defibs immediately, the body will be ‘finished’ before the person can get revived.

There is nothing worse than a medic trying to revive while the opponent is already long jumping at the body with the knife out. [/quote]

This is obvious, and just takes 2 or maybe 3 games of practice to learn when a player will be gibbed before you can reach them with full charge paddles or not. In most situations, if the team is playing correctly, you will have at least 2 if not 3 teammates around you protecting you while you try to light up a revive.

Tap revives are bad and should only be used when you’re retreating from an outnumbered situation. It’s also incredibly easy to first dump a med-kit on the body then tap res, or tap res and quick heal (if Phoenix).

It’s also important to note that reviving players draws fire away from the team. If it doesn’t draw fire away from the team then it means you get to (full charge) heal a dead player. Knowing how to revive under fire (with teammate protection) is a required skill.

Again, I’m not talking about 5v5 since those game dynamics are completely different from 6v6+ and very few players play it.

(Szakalot) #42

meh,

maps are balanced for 5v5

i can appreciate that revive spam can work on pubs where people dont know/dont care to gib. You will find it very hard to pull it off on minlvl20 servers thou. throwing a medpack at the body and THEN revive? that just doesnt make sense, why wouldnt you do it the other way around?

I actually had to re-learn playing a medic on pugs, as a long time ago, if you tapped revive, the body gets invulnerable, and the person gets up no matter what. This caused major revive trains, that only got worse once sparks got released. So they nerfed revives, and hard.

It is generally accepted among good players atm. that you should not revive first unless:

  • the enemy is far so not likely to get all the shots in
  • enemy is out of ammo, so they wont be able to gib in time
  • revive is critical to objective (engy for defuse e.g.)

Charging paddles is a good idea, but awful under fire. Its much more effective to tap-revive and throw a medpack/pulse. Then again, you are hoping that the revived teammate won’t just charge gunz blazing with 30hp, but actually hold fire and abuse the invulnerability time. So I can see how that is less relevant on pubs with clueless people.

(bgyoshi) #43

[quote=“Szakalot;200667”]maps are balanced for 5v5…

…I actually had to re-learn playing a medic on pugs…[/quote]

And the large majority of games are not 5v5. Now you’re starting to see where the game balancing problems are coming in.

Of course you had to re-learn medic, 5v5 isn’t even close to being a similar format to even 6v6. Every single class has to be played completely different because of the enormously different dynamics. As mentioned before, I’m not talking about 5v5 since it’s the extreme minority of all games of DB. Once SD finally changes casual to 5v5, or finally changes competitive away from 5v5, then we can cross strategies. But for now, I’m only discussing non-5v5 games.

All of the points you said are correct. I’m not going to write an exhaustive list of every scenario and nuance that one should full charge, 3/4 or 1/2 charge, or tap res a player, because:

A. That list would be way too long, and
B. I assume people have enough critical thinking skills to apply general rules of thumb to any scenario they can think of. If not, then don’t reply.

Assuming you’re not playing Sparks and you are under fire, throwing a med-pack first before a tap res is ideal since:

  1. The dead player will pick it up on revive and heal over 30hp, or
  2. The player will be finished before you can reach, and now you have a health pack to run over and heal yourself with

Throwing a med-pack second is better when you’re already standing on top of the body, but most times you’re playing more in the back of the team to avoid dying and have to close a gap between you and a dead player. In the case of Aura and Phoenix, you don’t have health packs so the point is moot.

Medic deaths will usually be high no matter what since they SHOULD be the main target of the opponent, and you’re busy healing your team and typically on low HP. This is why I like Phoenix so much, since he heals himself as well as players around him, making him harder to kill; and why I hate Sparks because, while range reviving is good, that usually means you’re too far away to throw a health pack every time the cool down ends.

For the record, the only thing that changes between Min 20 and generic servers is the number of kills I get as medic. My score is usually higher on min 20 servers, and I have less kills and more deaths.

Generally speaking, the general rules of playing medic are nearly identical no matter what game you’re playing. Generally. DB is not one of the games where they’re different.

(Szakalot) #44

[quote=“MidnightButterSweats;200812”][quote=“Szakalot;200667”]maps are balanced for 5v5…

…I actually had to re-learn playing a medic on pugs…[/quote]

And the large majority of games are not 5v5. Now you’re starting to see where the game balancing problems are coming in.

[/quote]

i had to relearn medic because of the high average skill level, not because of 5v5. It would be just as hard to revive in 8v8 at the same skill level, or even harder considering the larger amount of spam and gunfire.

Casual matchmaking is coming, and it will most likely be played as a 6v6.

Assuming you’re not playing Sparks and you are under fire, throwing a med-pack first before a tap res is ideal since:

  1. The dead player will pick it up on revive and heal over 30hp, or
  2. The player will be finished before you can reach, and now you have a health pack to run over and heal yourself with

Throwing a med-pack second is better when you’re already standing on top of the body, but most times you’re playing more in the back of the team to avoid dying and have to close a gap between you and a dead player. In the case of Aura and Phoenix, you don’t have health packs so the point is moot.

eh?

in scenario 1. the player can just as well pick up the medpack you’re throwing them after the revive. where is the benefit?
in scenario 2 you have failed already: the person is not revived. Single medpack is not gonna help you under fire as sparks, and is useless underfire as sawbonez.

Imo only two things should be happening around an incap teamamate:

  • you go for the rez
  • you engage the opponents.

everything else is a waste of time

(bgyoshi) #45

In scenario one the benefit is starting a heal in fewer frames over throwing it second, and then you can throw a second pack if needed. If you don’t throw it first, then your actions in order are: Nothing, revive, heal.

If you throw first, then the actions are: Pack, Revive into immediate heal, return fire/heal self/heal teammate. This is a much more efficient use of time and cool downs.

If you fail, then you don’t have to waste time tossing a health pack to heal yourself, and have a second at the ready to escape the situation alive.

This is a super fringe scenario anyway, as mentioned, because you should generally be around other teammates, and not alone. But in the event all of your teammates are incapped, it’s better to pick up any player in your retreat path that you can, than to just let them die and pray you aren’t hunted down during the respawn timer.

(Szakalot) #46

Im still not getting it, sorry. We are talking sawbonez only, right?

In first scenario, if you throw a medpack before revive that means you will revive later, than if you just longjump+charge paddles towards the body. Do you agree?

I suppose one exception would be when throwing a medpack directly downwards, while falling mid-air towards a body you want to revive. Though the place high enough to do that would be a few and far inbetween.

Use of cooldowns only matters if you’re maxed out on healthpacks (cooldown does not regenerate). So indeed, throwing a medpack before revive is more cooldown efficient, by a few seconds.

I’m also not getting how are medpacks helpful under fire. Giving yourself a medpack gives 12hp/sec (for sawbonez), which is only like 2-3 times faster than auto-self regen. Considering it takes about 0.5sec to throw a medpack, and regen stops as soon as getting hit, I really dont think its a good idea to throw medpacks under fire.

Throwing a medpack while running away (under fire) is a bad habit as well: you might die before reaching the heal, when otherwise you would make it. Imo better hide first and heal afterwards.

(AlphaUT) #47

Whatever you guys say, if teammates, I mean none medic role, are poor at killing. There is no way, I mean, no way a team can win even though they have a great medic. This also shows the importance of a medic is able to KILL and REVIVE. It is possible to do that, medic should not just focusing on revive. That’s why you see some medics are like a God who have great KD with many revives.

Sometimes you have to give up some teammates in order to make his death worthy. Imstead of running over there to revive a teammate who was killed and fall on the ground, a good medic should understand the situation, such as spawn time, cross fire, and the HP of the enemies.

(bgyoshi) #48

And that’s what I’m saying overall. If you play as a TEAM, you will just get kills. You don’t have to try to get kills, you don’t even have to be good at getting kills. 5 people shooting at the same targets while a medic keeps them all at full health will just cause kills to happen. When this happens, no one player is going to leap ahead in K/D over another player, the kills will just spread out among the team, and since the medic is too busy ensuring that no one is dying, the combined sustained DPS of your team vs a team with a dead or shooting medic is higher. Yes a shooting medic adds damage to the team, but it also removes HP and revive from the team, so every kill is extra detrimental to them at that point.

So back to the point of the thread: Kills in DB are entirely unimportant. They’re a common side effect of playing as a team, NOT a strategic goal, ESPECIALLY since a good team will be able to cover engineers and complete objectives while under fire.

“Guys why didn’t you plant and cover me I killed like 4 people ughhhhhhh”

Yeah, because the rest of the team died and you weren’t paying attention, so now there’s no one around you to cover you. Good job on your 4/1 life but now you’re stuck on the new respawn timer and the rest of the team is stuck a player down because of your rambo.

(nokiII) #49

5 people shooting at the same targets while a medic keeps them all at full health will just cause kills to happen.

I’ve bad news. 5 competent people shooting 1 dude results in one dead dude and a new torn bumhole for you right afterwards.

(bgyoshi) #50

I’ve bad news. I used the plural form of the word “target,” implying more than one dude is being shot :slight_smile:

(watsyurdeal) #51

[quote=“AlphaUT;200859”]Whatever you guys say, if teammates, I mean none medic role, are poor at killing. There is no way, I mean, no way a team can win even though they have a great medic. This also shows the importance of a medic is able to KILL and REVIVE. It is possible to do that, medic should not just focusing on revive. That’s why you see some medics are like a God who have great KD with many revives.

Sometimes you have to give up some teammates in order to make his death worthy. Imstead of running over there to revive a teammate who was killed and fall on the ground, a good medic should understand the situation, such as spawn time, cross fire, and the HP of the enemies.[/quote]

This

Sometimes it’s best for the team to not revive or risk getting yourself killed, a small 3-4 second window where a choice is made can change everything in the outcome of a game.

A perfect example

I played Skyhammer on the last point of Bridge, defense, I decided to suicide to switch to Fragger, even though I’d be back in 5 seconds, the enemy team pushed in just that time and they were able to get the final cap and win.

Granted my team should have been there to stop them, but the point is I made a bad choice. If I was there I could have at least prevented them getting out with the delivery.

It’s situations like that that a good medic must make snap judgements. As well as everyone else on the team.