Just some thoughts on Javelin

(javelin_main) #1

Javelin. Right so I think that her intended use is not really viable. However, the use of ambushing and 1v1 cheesing is still too good. Splash damage has only worsened the problem. At least she was good at doing other things than 1v1 cheesing at release. Here is how I think you should at least start to fix this.

part 1) Stopping 1v1 cheesing

change 1) Increase the time taken to pull out the rocket launcher by 0.15s-0.25s (I would suggest starting small and slowly increasing this change slowly but SD at the end of the day choose.

change 2) If Javelin has had her rocket launcher out for less than 0.35s (easier to type and implement than 0.33 reoccurring XD), the rocket launcher should take an extra 0.5s to charge. To communicate this, I would suggest that the rocket launcher’s displays (where blue) should show as red for these 0.35s and stay red for the charge if it is being extended. After the 0.35s or after then end of the extended charge, the red displays should revert back to the blue displays.

change 3) for the first 8m of flight, the rocket will deal less damage in a lesser area of effect. These are the stats I suggest:
splash spread: 3.2m
damage in the spread: 100 (will deal 100 damage with no drop off for 1m (will always deal 100 damage if you are less than 1m from the rocket’s landing place) and between 1m and 3.2m it will drop from 100 to 0 damage
direct hit damage: 120
(to make sure Javelin dies to this still, Javelin should take 5X damage from her own rocket launcher)

Change 1 is to make it harder to pull the rocket out when under gun fire and change two is to generate a similar effect. Change 1 and 2 are designed to stop 1v1 cheesing and to give players, who are targeted up close, time to react. They also force a Javelin player to predict the exact moment that she needs to fire a rocket. It also means that Javelin players can’t pull out rockets mid fire fight. Change 3 is to lesser the strength of the up close rocket to a dramatic extent. It should also allow people to not get insta-killed with no reaction time.

part 2) (Increasing Javelin’s support role)

change 1) Remove the one second delay between A friendly stepping into the ammo generator’s area of effect and receiving the first tick of ammo. This should also allow Javelin to top up teammates without having to stand still.

change 2) The first tick of ammo from the ammo generator (at 0s after entering the ammo generator’s area of effect) should give 1/3 of a magazine (preferring to round down). The second tick of ammo from the ammo generator (at 1s after entering the ammo generator’s area of effect) should give 2/3 of a magazine (preferring to round up). The third tick of ammo from the ammo generator (at 2s after entering the ammo generator’s area of effect) should give 1 full magazine. The fourth tick from the ammo generator (at 3s after entering the ammo generator’s area of effect) should full refill the rest of the player’s ammo.

change 3) Increased ammo generator area of effect by 0.5m

change 4) ammo reach should increase the radius by 35%

change 5) added 2X multiplier to equipment

changes 1,3 and 4 are to allow her to top up a little bit better
as people don’t really stick too close to a Javelin for too long. Change 2 is to allow Javelin to not have to stay still and support better. It also gives 1 mag over 1 second instead of 1 half of a magazine over a second. Change 5 is to allow her to 1 shot Turtle’s shield when the Turtle player has the steady augment.

part 3) (Increasing Javelin’s potential against objectives)

Change 1) added multiplier to objectives of 2X.

reasoning: it simply allows Javelin to 2 shot the ev and deal more damage to secondary objectives.

part 4) (Increasing Javelin’s potential to use her rocket at a reasonable distance)

change 1) after the 8m weakening distance, the rocket launcher should be more effective.
1.1) added inner effect
inner effect:
splash spread radius: 2m
damage in splash spread: 320
(all damage is flat. This means that if you are within 2m, you will take full damage no matter what (other than augments) and will not drop damage until 2m)
from 2m to 2.75m, The rocket’s damage will drop from 320 to 235
1.2) added outer effect:
outer effect:
splash spread radius: 4m
damage in splash spread: 235
(again all damage is flat)
from 4m to 4.5m, The rocket’s damage will drop from 235 to 0

Change 2) Damage from the rocket should not be blocked by players, equipment, small objects on the ground or any object with collision. The player will take damage as well as players behind them taking damage (if within the area of effect).

change 1 is to make her a little bit more effective at range. whereas change 2 is in the game and isn’t a useful balance feature it’s just annoying. I have had times where one person changing position has blocked damage to multiple players that would AND SHOULD have died without this.

part 5) (making her self ammo generator a little bit better)

This part is a little bit different as I’m going to give this to you straight. I have no idea what to do here. People are so conflicted on this topic. some people think that the self ammo system is fine but others hate it. I think it is a bit messed up that a fire support merc can run out of ammo very often. I only run out of ammo with Javelin just a little bit less often than I do with Fragger. The two way I see of fixing this are:

  1. give Javelin a spare magazine by default (effectively give her the spares augment by default). with this system I would like to see Javelin get 10% of a magazine per ammo tick given to a team mate.
  2. Just give her infinite ammo. would it really make her op? not really. would it make a difference when you consider the other fire support merc basically have infinite ammo? no. This is the method I prefer but some hate (I just want to add to this as many people have asked ‘would I make it so she has to reload?’. Yes I would. It makes sense that she should. This would make Javelin overpowered in this respect.

Please let me know what you think of these changes. would you change the amount or % change or add some new stuff? are you opposed to some or all of my changes? if so, why?

(Press E) #2

Honestly I don’t think there’s really much you can do to make javelin both viable and non-cheesy. She’s just kinda… out of place in DB in the first place. I mean, guideable rocket launchers in an otherwise high TTK game are just weird.

Most of what I want from javelin is just increased damage the longer the rocket is in the air though. 40 or 50 or something else useless right out of the barrel for a couple meters, increasing up to 200 or something after a few seconds. That way you ditch the cheese, and everything else will give the enemy plenty of warning time, even some to shoot down the rocket. Plus it encourages more skilled use of the guided rocket, something SD seemed to had hoped for in javelin’s trailers. I’d also reduce the time to fire and cooldown on top of that to keep it balanced.

Also keep in mind every other firesupport either can only give ammo in a fixed area, or has to stop what they’re doing to aim ammo packs at people. Buffing her ammo ability like you’re suggesting would basically make any other firesupport mercs on the same team useless.

(HadronZodiac) #3

Just no, you’d be rewarding sitting back and not giving ur team ammo and sniping, and punishing going aggressive and flanking

Lets make it so the blast radius decreases the longer its in the air, but the damage increases. So you can snipe EVs and slow enemies. Or when your flanking you can decimate a large area. Basically you can go sniper or flak.

(hawkeyeguy99) #4

In my humble opinion Cancerlin is the single worst thing to happen to DB since I started playing almost 3 years ago. She encourages “noobish” play and due to her uselessness as a support role it encourages more players to pursue one-man-army kills which are made extraordinarily easy with her cheesy rocket launcher. I honestly wish she had never been added to the game, but she’s here and staying so how do we fix her? You have some really good ideas here, but it’s a lot so I’ll try to respond as best I can.

Part 1:
Change 1) No problem here, but I think this is less of an issue.
Change 2) Again, helpful but I think you’re focusing on the wrong part of what make’s Cancerlin’s cheesing rockets irritating to play against.
Change 3) THIS is a step in the right direction and I fully support this. Changing her to a ranged based assault would instantly solve the cheese problem and keep people from suicide charging around corners. Changes 1 and 2 only put a band-aid because you can still plan for this and insta-gib people around corners.
One thing I would add, her insta-gib should be removed entirely. In NO situation should a merc be able to kill AND gib an enemy with one hit without intense skill involved (like sniper headshots, but even those don’t insta-gib all the time). I can’t tell you how irritating it is to be insta-gibbed around a corner because a Cancerlin bunny hopped and shot a rocket at my feet. It just shouldn’t happen. Should I die? Maybe. But not without a chance to be rezzed.

Part 2:
Change 1) Reasonable and agreeable.
Change 2) I have a hard time envisioning what this would look like in-game, but it sounds reasonable.
Change 3) I don’t really think this is necessary but sure why not, it would encourage more of a supportive play.
Change 4) Not sure what this means. Are you saying ammo reach should be 35% larger? Is this an extension of change 3?
Change 5) Absolutely not. Her rocket is already effective enough against deployables and she doesn’t need this buff. She shouldn’t be able to 1 shot a Turtle shield as that renders Turtle more under-powered and behind the meta than he already is.

Part 3:
Change 1) Maybe a 1.5x multiplier but not 2. Even Arty who is already the EV destroyer kind can’t 2 shot the EV. Cancerlin shouldn’t be able to either. This would make her an instant pick on ANY EV map and would completely overshadow any other fire support.

Part 4:
Change 1. and 1.2) I don’t like this simply because it reduces the already low skill ceiling. In my opinion, there should be damage drop-off for ANY rocket impact save for a direct hit even if it’s minimal. Making her have an AOE flat damage lowers her skill ceiling even lower than it already is (which is low).
Change 2) NO. This is unrealistic as body-blocking can and should be a thing in this game. Not like you’d have time to actually try to body-block in game but there shouldn’t be anything that ignores objects between impact and the character. You shouldn’t get the full blast of the rocket if there is a person between you and it.

Ammo stuff:
I disagree honestly. She shouldn’t have infinite ammo as all of the other ammo abilities require you to actually DO something in order to stock up. Canerlin’s is instant and requires you to do nothing in order to receive free ammo, it just happens. What I would suggest is changing the ability to have 2 or so slots each on their own cooldown. Then make it triggerable with the “e” key. That way you can save up ammo, and quick refill when you need it but it also requires you to actually pay attention and activate it instead of taking away any sort of burden on the player for ammo. Infinite ammo with no cost is a definite no no.

You have some good ideas here, but as you can probably tell, I hate Cancerlin with everything that I am and I have strong opinions on what needs changed. I’d be happy to hear your thoughts on my ideas though.

(Sorotia) #5

You could give one of those nuclear launch alarms and all the flashing lights in the world and people are still going to bitch and moan.

I save my rocket exclusively for the EV…specifically not kill people with it and the still bitch and moan about how I’m a Javelin newb.

Just like with the molly people will bitch if they’re killed by it (Except if it’s explosives…being killed by explosives with with shortercooldowns and more than a single use is a-okay though)

(x3onn) #6

Increase the rocket CD to 50 and increase it’s effectiveness closer to what it was on release or a patch after it.

This is my idea for balancing her. With the added effectiveness, you have a reason to go for multkills again. With the added cooldown, if you get a solo kill with the rocket, you didn’t get enough value to make it worth playing her. This would make it less frustrating to play against her. Of course to an lesser extend without 1 merc rule.

Not sure what to do about the ammo passive.

(nokiII) #7

Remove it and call her assault, the only solution. :octopus:

(Press E) #8

The problem with that is you’ll end up making a lot of people frustrated. Most people don’t like being randomly blown up, even if there is a long cooldown. Enjoyability is just as important as fairness, this is a game after all. People need a change to fight against her

(Press E) #9

Like I said, there’s nothing you can really do to make javelin fit in with DB perfectly.

But would it really be a bad thing if javelin’s focus was on range? Like, there are already a lot of mercs who specialize in aggressively flanking with explosives. Nader, fragger, hell even fletcher. But none of them are exactly what I’d call ranged with their abilities.
Javelin doesn’t have to be a jack of all trades either. There’s nothing wrong with having to change mercs if you want a different playstyle.

Also ranged focus (only with her rocket mind you, she’s not vassili 24/7) doesn’t mean you never interact with your team. Most DB maps are designed in such a way that even if you are trying to go for ranged combat, you’ll still interact with your team frequently, whether you’re trying to give them ammo or not

(HadronZodiac) #10

1 - Cant deny that
2 - I see, but still, shes part assault, and a good assault is in the front lines blowing shit up
3 - eh

(Jigstraw) #11

I think you’re overcomplicating this. Only the highest IQ javelin players could even comprehend any of the changes you’re suggesting if they were all made at once. Instead of those changes, i’d like to suggest these.

1: give the rocket a minimum distance before it will detonate on contact, like with nader’s grenade launcher, and give a reduced cooldown (maybe 5-10s) for failed rockets. This would create a good, strong counterplay against 1v1 rocket cheese. You can push right up in javelin’s face and make her fail/cancel the rocket, or between the chargeup and minimum range, players would have enough time to react to and avoid the rocket.

2: increase the rocket’s damage on the ev/secondary obejctives so it’s actually viable (and encouraged) to use it for objective play, because needing 3 shots on 30s cooldowns to destroy an EV is absolutely abysmal, even stoker is better at destroying them. The damage increase wouldn’t need to be enough to destroy ev’s in 2 shots, but maybe enough to destroy it in 2 shots and a full magazine from a primary weapon, similar to arty’s strikes, but for areas air-support abilities can’t reach.

3: increase the ammo-supply radius by like 25-50% because it’s too damn small. The ammo supply rate is fine at 1/2 a magazine per tick since it’s an ability that gives you exp simply for existing, but the area of effect is so small it’s difficult to intentionally get ammo from javelin without her express permission, especially if you’re playing a merc with a lower movement speed than her.

4: Reduce her self-ammo cooldown by like 33% tbh, drop it from 30s to 20s because she’s really the only fire support that risks running out of ammo if she does a lot of suppressing fire or uses gunfire on objectives.

(Press E) #12

I just figure something unique wouldn’t be that bad. I mean, all the assault mercs play out more or less the same at their core. Then we also have firesupports who are also already pretty assaulty. And on top of that we have hybrid assault mercs like guardian, sawbonez, phantom, etc. For a game where killing isn’t supposed to be the primary focus, we seem pretty overstocked on the front-line pushing category, lol

(GatoCommodore) #13

Yknow IRL Anti Tank Guided Missiles have arming range
basically if it hits anything 1 second after launching from the tube it would just hit and then fall like a dud
kind of like Nader direct hit.

this suggestion is actually good, if the range is too close, it would only deal like 80dmg like skyhammer marker if thrown under a cover and no sky sightline, but after a bit of range, the missile warhead is armed and if it explode, deals normal amount of damage regardless of area.

If i understand this right, all firesupport are kind of OP but their “Channeling time” is longer thus requiring precision aim, good knowledge of map or an opening to use their ability right likeskyhammer horizontal marker that cant hit enemies behind EV but if he know how to position himself well he can do it vertical to the ev and hit everyone behind it.

this is actually good suggestion and i hope SD reads this


I do like the ammo changes you suggest, however the problem with javelin’s rocket in my opinion is that her ‘gimmick’, the guided mode, is fucking useless.

yeah, ive done the fancy rocket in the air coming back down thing a couple of times, but why would i ever risk using one of them like that when i could just rocket your toes and get a guaranteed kill?

The Rocket is simultaneously too fast yet too slow, making it almost impossible for someone to accurately predict an ‘up and over’ shot. Why would i play like that with javelin’s 35 second rocket when i could just skip the bullshit, use kira and have the potential for multiple kills, or use arty with a much reduced cooldown if i want to do some from the skies murder?

Get rid of non guided, replace guided mode with something with utility and it might become useful. I dont know, maybe a slower rc rocket or something.

Also javelin really isnt a fire support. They should make her an assault merc, then balance her as such. Because when you compare her to mercs like fragger, you realise shes just a fragger but with an almost 100% chance to win a gunfight every couple of seconds. This is the main reason i use javelin and not fragger, who i used to main, because there is literally not a chance the enemy to escape.

(javelin_main) #15

so the general consensus of what basically all of you are saying is Javelin is skill less but rewarding her for skill and punishing her for being a noob is a bad thing. Right this community is very consistent and not just winging because they can’t handle a more cheesy but otherwise worse Fragger (who is somehow balanced?). (sorry for the memes it’s just the only thing that Javelin does better in this game is cheese when you compare her to fragger and don’t mention support as she barely does that unless you get team wiped and she let’s you basically spawn with a few more bullets as meat shielding is a lot better than giving 3 bullets every solar eclipse) I want to respond to all of the comments that I have perceived to be serious as I just to be quite honest can’t be arsed to be a parent as I ain’t cleanin’ up after someone’s salty ass 12 year old kid who can’t handle being killed.

starrysock comment no1:
I totally agree. there is two ways they can fix her: leave her and maybe do something about up close cheesing or my preferred option: basically flat removing the cheese (which you go into detail about in the second part of your comment and so do I in my changes). I basically suggested the whole second paragraph. When you say about the giving more warning do you mean louder charge as that’s interesting as that’s a common flaw in db. She is the only character in the game with MULTIPLE visual cues for her ability and also has an audio cue. Kira’s laser has no audio cue at all (guardian angel is just the most situational garbage and barely works on Kira as it can be easily be mistaken for just the audio of the map tbh) and she has a visual cue that isn’t 1% as clear as Javelin had even at release. Now I found the final part of your paragraph interesting as I don’t see it as a straight upgrade. I see it as just being less of a pain in the ass to fill up but a nerf if you’re just passing by.

HadronZodiac comment no1: HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA sorry but what? You think 1v1 cheesing is fine XD. no just no. Then making it worse at range so you have to 1v1 cheese more than you do now as she is outclassed by every other assault or kill based merc when it comes to ANYTHING but 1v1 cheese even now. That would make it even worse. However thanks a lot you got the idea of my changes. sitting back and supporting your team is what all fire supports do right now or should do. If you want a aggressive flank class. PLAY ASSULT (I personally include Phantom as an assault so you could use him too) OR PROXY. The more I think about this and pervious comments on other posts the more punch able you become and the more you seem like a wanna be troll

hawkeyeguy99: you seem like you lost the last game to a Javelin or two and got a bit over triggered but lets roll with it. Part 2 change 5 is just because I call to be quite honest bull to the mother …………. when I direct hit a turtle shield and it stay standing. rly 30s cooldown for not even 1 shoting a shield? Turtle is still by far one of the best mercs in this game (competitively) he has been banned in EVERY pug I have seen since his release that he is just often assumed as a bad in a lot of pugs. I think this would only be part of the puzzle to making how not stupidly overpowered in high level play.

Part 3 change 1: your multiplier would do the same thing but my point is if arty has to use 60s of cooldown to take out an ev why should Javelin have to use 90s? I am gunna stay solid on this one and say it SHOULD 2 shot the ev maybe the 1.5X multiplier is right so that an arty strike wouldn’t combo as perfectly with a rocket. (this way 1 rocket and 2 arty strikes would still be needed but it makes her better if she is the only one who can take out the ev.

Part 4 change 1 1.1 and 1.2: yeah I’m gunna say it. You’re wrong. Javelin still runs out of ammo too much I only run out of ammo with fragger about 10% more. She is the only fire support that can run out of ammo. So.… by that merit all fire supports are buffed Javelins in your opinion or is there some kind of logic to that. (I doubt it like I said you’re just probably a but bum hurt as someone played well with Javelin and you lost last game or something like that).It isn’t balance to say that oh she has 1 decent ability let’s make everything about her utter trash.

sorotia: basically. you summed it right up there. you could be the best db player and play on your mates lvl 50 (I say that cos smurfing is a dick move) account and get called a newb and told to kys. People are just real but hurt about a bad release. I reckon if she was released as she is she would have been buffed up to how she was at release and no one would moan bout her. weird how much a release can make people sooooooooooooo but-hurt

x3onn: Yeah the problem isn’t cooldown. 30s is a long cooldown for even 1v1 cheese. it is a waste to go for 1v1 kills even at 30s. The problem and the reason I think people go for the 1v1 cheese is that she can’t do anything else better than another merc.

nokill: again another but hurt kid

starrysock comment no2: yeah I agree but he has a point. at least then it would be A HUGE waste in a 1v1 even tho it still is now for 30s

starrysock comment no3: I think she would be better as a ranged explosives merc as if the rocket wasn’t as slow as it is when guided she could be a lot of fun to play as basically being a human motar cannon. Plus at that point she wouldn’t be yet another attempt from sd to say hey look Fragger mains you can play other mercs and have fun and not just be the best assault. then find out 4 hours later that Fragger is still better.

Hadronzodiac comment no2: not to me

Jigstraw: so whine that Jav is skill less. then whine that making javelin skill based would ruin her……… I’ll let you dwell in your own despair on that one

starrysock stawp with these comments. however you have a point there

gatocommodore: minimum arm distance is something I have opposed since launch of Javelin. How would I know if my missile is armed or not? with what I suggested it’s basically trying yo ambush from 3 feet between you and them? nah m8. as well as swapping to the launcher mid fight coming with drawbacks. arm distance is a big no no imo

right I’m not putting your name here cos screw that. I’m going to refer to you as dsg as it’s short but please correct me if you want to be called anything else. I agree that guided is useless but don’t remove it. it would be like taking thunder and giving him a sniper and his concussion grenade is a stun landmine. (ie that’s not thunder. that’s a new merc).

(GatoCommodore) #16

Nader has arm distance for her gremades and it worked perfectly. People will need to learn how far is the arm distance just like how people learn how far is the arm distance on nader. Then instead of straight/ guided mode it could be changed to fast/slow mode with no unguided version of the rocket.

(hawkeyeguy99) #17

So, again you have a lot here. First I never made any attacks on you personally so I’m unsure why you’re getting so defensive and calling me a “but bum hurt as someone played well with Javelin and you lost last game”. No need to throw personal insults, we can be civil.
She can be damn fun to play, but in my personal opinion she’s only fun because she’s a free, easy kill machine. There is no counter to a Javelin rocket. There just isn’t. Turtle is the closest thing and you can’t set up a Turtle shield in time to stop a Javelin rocket so it’s only a guessing game on where Javelin will be shooting. She insta-gibs far too much, can take down full health Rhino’s in a split second with little to no aim required, and gains easy multi-kills without the need for good aim. That’s not true of ANY other fire-support. The others require good prediction, aim, or placement to maybe get a kill, but none of them can do it as effectively as Javelin can.
She outshines every single assault merc on the roster. There’s no reason to pick Fragger, Thunder, Rhino, or Nader over her because she’s simply better than all of them. The only areas where she doesn’t overshadow every other merc is in ammo and objectives so yes, I am totally okay if she’s utter trash in those categories as she outshines other mercs in roles she’s not even supposed to be playing.

If SD is so set on her being a fire-support merc they need to majorly tune down her rocket launcher, and up her ammo-giving ability.

Yes, I’m guilty for hating this character. But she is 0 fun to play against and feels cheap and easy to play as.

(Jigstraw) #18

I’m not whining at all, I don’t know what you’re on about.

Her ammo supply rate is fine, but the radius is too small to be practical, increasing it by a reasonable amount would be a good change and we agree on that.

She’s the only fire support that runs out of ammo regularly, with an automatic resupply that can waste a full 30s cooldown if you reload after only firing a few shots. Would be more reasonable on a 20s cooldown, or if the ability wasn’t triggered until your ammo reserve fell below a certain point, let’s say 2 full magazines. That way you ALWAYS get 1 full magazine worth of rounds when the ability triggers. might interact weird with the spares augment though, not really sure how to deal with that.

Anyway, what I meant about your rocket changes is that they’re a little too complicated and there’s much simpler, easier to understand - at a glance - ways of altering it to eliminate, or at least mitigate rocket cheesing. Rather than having a kind of “grace period” after equipping the rocket launcher where if you try to fire it too soon after equipping it, you’re punished with a longer charge-up period than you would have had if you were a little more patient, and doing less damage within a certain range, just giving it a minimum detonation distance like real anti-tank missiles (and nader’s grenade launcher) have, with a much shorter cooldown after a failed attempt at using the rocket at too close a range, would be much easier to understand. They already have code for a minimum detonation distance in the form of nader’s grenade launcher, so it would be much less work for the dev team as well.

basically what i’m saying is there’s a much easier way to achieve nearly the same end result that’s easier for players to understand AND less work for the people that have to make these changes. Minimum detonation distance a-la nader, reduced cooldown a-la skyhammer.

minimum detonation distance also comes with the benefit of being unable to blow yourself up, which i’m sure a lot of javelin players would appreciate, tbh. sometimes the level geometry is weird, and on the lowest settings, there are parts of the level geometry that are completely invisible, like some signs on walls, and security cameras that will still block shots in spite of being totally invisible.

(HadronZodiac) #19

True, so as said i think she could have a special rocket that decreases in blast but increases in damage and vise versa for short distances

So you can take out an ev when in sight and far away faster
Or if you are in front lines you can basically do a flak rocket

(bgyoshi) #20

wtf someone with actually reasonable changes to Javelin?