Just a friendly reminder - don't kick bad players in PUBs

(Press E) #41

Best way to learn is to play in game. She had a good grasp of everything. Healing, reviving, planting, etc. But in the heat of combat of an actual match, it’s a lot harder to figure out what to actually do. She needs experience in game, not to wanter around an empty server for an hour with me. And there’s nothing wrong with learning in a casual server open to all players.

It’s not SD’s fault either. I just wanted to play with a friend. It’s not SD’s fault some people take public matches way too seriously.

(RasteRayzeR) #42

I guess the key is to play inclusive.

Bring your friends, no matter their skill and try to have team based fun in pub games. Stopwatch tends to be a tense gametype. Objective looks more suited to me to learn the basics as the pace is slower and less tactical.

It is also hard for some (me included), to dumb down our fragging to allow everyone to have a good time. Owning is ok, kicking should not happen

(D'@athi) #43

Rly? Playing inclusive?! Just giving you a little bit of storytime…

I started to play fps-games online in 1996, when children did still believe in Santa, had real brain-tissue in their heads and not some useless apps on their phones (and probably gamers also beeing the age of the parents of the average-nowadays-DB-players, but what the heck).
So, is it my fault, I am playing a hyped game today? Is it my fault, kids nowadays don’t have a brain, play with 250ms+ ping, 10 fps or 50% packetloss, feel glad to kill people behind corners or not beeing able to be hit, or, on the other side, don’t even move more than a simple chess-bot would do? Shouldn’t I report them for warping around, giving you multiple headdies in a tenth of a second because they “lag”, or shouldn’t I “hate” them because the only thing they do is mereley walking around in circles?
Imo, rly? Yes, no, whatevr? Fuck it.
Is it my job to bring back my mates laughing at this game, even harder than some Battle-Eye-protected-one? Ffs, I even pointed you in the direction of some mandatory options on the “community-servers”. Still the most needed one is to hard to implement, server-admins having to take some workarounds, after other really problematic ones emerge out of nowhere, not beeing able to be implemented because of “xyz” before.

So, ffs, to put it simple…

And if I blame people for beeing shitty, then suck it. Because even in my own world, I am no pro, and beeing able to play some computer-game, and walk in a straight line, merely takes a keypress, but surely no obsidian skin.

(Yep, other well-known-games lost at least 60% of their influence after focussing on people having no problem standing-in or lagging-in fire, but who would care about these, nowadays. They only killed ET.)

(Press E) #44

And that’s fine. If you want to play like that, go for it. But getting mad at new players in public servers is just dumb lol. With community servers you can avoid new players so easily that there really isn’t an excuse for complaining about them in the servers where they actually belong. Like I said, how can you expect someone to “git gud” if you just kick them.

Besides, what @RasteRayzeR is describing is just good sportsmanship. It’s about trying to be nice to everyone, because playing tends to be more enjoyable when you focus on having fun and being nice instead of screaming at everyone lol. It’s not an alien concept, it applies to a lot more than just videogames, and no, it’s by no means something new invented by “kids today” either.

Point being, it’s extremely easy to avoid new players, so I don’t get what the problem is. You’re just giving yourself a hard time by playing in public matches instead of community servers.
But more importantly, it’s just a game. You’re supposed to have fun, not get angry at casual players playing casually in casual servers, then rant about “dAmN kIdS tOdAy TrYiNg To LeArN tO pLaY”

(D'@athi) #45

(somehow quoting you doesn’t work)

All you said, n1.

Having to expell myself out of the way of them “idiots” to some community-servers, because of ppl not knowing how to play the tutorial? Because of people, not knowing which end of the weapon the bullets drop-out? Because of new players thinking only k/d is real and not knowing anymore, where they’ve hidden their “cojones”?
Simple answer… NOT MY FUCKING PROBLEM!!!
I simply sort by ping and, if possible, play on my beloved 12ms frankfurt-ones, while hoping, that no bunch of 150±ms idiots make me server-cpu-packetloss (thanks @ ue3-engine and devs±).

And (edit) btw… this game is 3+ years old, so kindergarden shouldn’t be a problem.

(Press E) #46

If new players annoy you so much I still don’t get why you insist on playing with them lol. There are plenty of community servers spread all across NA, and I’m sure EU isn’t much different. Besides, the difference between 15 and 50 ping is so marginal that it almost doesn’t even matter if you have to play in a server that isn’t right on top of you.

And well, considering how angry new players seem to make you it sounds to me like the tradeoff is worth it, lol. Because no amount of calling new players “braindead children” will solve the problem, when what they need is actual practice. Neither will trying to kick them.

If you wanna be angry at DB then go right ahead, but trust me, it becomes more enjoyable when you aren’t foaming at the mouth at the sight of a teammate with 75 ping

(AlbinMatt) #47

Aw man, @Deathi would hate my guts. Asians have to contend with at least 80 or so ping on average. I often get matches in Hong Kong which is actually kinda far frim where I am. Sometimes we snoop around Australia when everyone is asleep so we can get games which can bring the lagometer to about 300 ping.

([ *O.C.B.* ] Wildcard) #48

Thing is the community servers are not always up and running with players in them. Often times one can find themselves with no actual servers to choose from but these casual servers, so I’m inclined to say @Deathi raises a fair point @STARRYSOCK; it isn’t fair to expect us to not become agitated by the situation, there is a very clear difference between someone new and someone who makes you question how they even figured out how to turn on their computer. Yes everyone starts somewhere but there comes a point where one has to acknowledge that certain games are not a good starting point to enter into a genre of games.

For the sake of argument, the DMC franchise had been notorious for being very difficult to pick-up for newcomers due to the way the difficulty was ramping up from installment to installment; this is something that was addressed in the reboot DMC: Devil May Cry, as they made the default and lower difficulties much more manageable and streamlined certain mechanics to simplify the game.

Dirty Bomb is in no way the most friendly entry into shooters to pick from, due to the faster-paced nature of its gameplay, and it’s unfair to expect veterans to not grow agitated with newcomers purely because community servers exist. These servers all suffer the same flaw as any other, they require players to be on them to be viable; which as I’ve stated before is simply not always the case. Grom personal experience the ones in the NA region are often only populated later into the night most times, and very rarely in the early morning or afternoon. So personally I’ve found myself increasingly agitated when I am forced to carry every match with no discourse other than to simply not play the game; that being said both sides have a fair point that has been made, but this is not a simple black-and-white matter. Perhaps it will improve with a higher population, but that’s a good ways off considering we still have no designated date for the launch of 1.0, though as of now it is simply not a constant option.

The vote system exists in this game, and like any other system in any game, is prone to abuse. This is something SD has allowed to be done time and time again with no repercussions. The tutorial was simplified and made even further bare-bones than its previous incarnations and thus players are put into the game in an even less-readied state to play; they’ve ultimately made it increasingly less newbie-friendly of an experience and this backlash is perfectly within reason and should be expected. So yes, we can try and “play nice” and all of that, but in the end we’re also human just like they are; we’re just as subject to the whims of our emotional outbursts as everyone else, and the limits of our patience, thus complicating the matter. If you remove human emotion and the stresses of life that exist outside of the game, then yes it becomes a black-and-white matter; however to take such a stance is folly and ultimately places itself upon a paradoxical foundation.

I’ll close this on a quote from Friedrich Nietzsche and my analysis of the philosophy behind it:

“But the worst enemy you can meet will always be yourself; you lie in wait for yourself in caverns and forests. Lonely one, you are going the way to yourself! And your way goes past yourself, and past your seven devils! You will be a heretic to yourself and witch and soothsayer and fool and doubter and unholy one and villain. You must be ready to burn yourself in your own flame: how could you become new, if you had not first become ashes?”
-Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

We are neither inherently good or evil, these are relative ideals defined by a society’s moral standards and values; they serve as an anchor that chains our way of thinking and serves as both a comfort and prison for our own perception of self, lulling us into seeing the world through the eyes of a child where matters exist within a simple dichotomy. And how can one truly rise and advance, become more than they are, if they can’t first acknowledge and accept their own shortcomings and limitations.

No matter how far humanity may rise there will always be an inkling of barbarism within us. To deny our baser emotions and underlying nature is folly, one that paralyzes and holds us in stasis; for to deny such things is to deny what we are, the very things that make us human and define us. Our pride and moral constructs serve as a constraint to free thinking, to critical analysis and deconstruction of ideals; we are quick to judge and even quicker to denounce ideals which put what we perceive as truth into question, we fear what we do not understand or refuse to. Such behavior is akin to that of a zealous fanatic, who will not be swayed in the slightest from his perceived truths; reality is hardly a simple construct and one awash with gray-areas that fall outside the basic dichotomy of “right & wrong”, of “good & evil”.

Even the actions within the dichotomy are rife with contradiction. To pity someone places yourself in a clearer position of superiority while openly denoting the inferior circumstance of the pitied party; this leaves them vulnerable, more liable to become reliant on others thus ultimately crippling them. While empathy and sympathy are often portrayed within a positive light in our moral spectrum, it is often overlooked how such actions can impact the recipient. So I would pose the question:

“Is it really praise-worthy to show such pity upon someone when it risks crippling them and creating such forced dependency? Or is it an even more praise-worthy act of compassion to take the approach of ‘tough love’ and allow for self-dependence and self-sufficiency to emerge?”

This is a matter of the old adage, “You give a man a fish, he’ll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he’ll eat for a lifetime.”, and it still holds validity here as an analogy.

If you hold their hand and shelter them too much (the act of giving them the fish but never teaching them how to obtain it) they’ll never truly grow. While, on the flip-side, if you ignore them completely they will most certainly fail, thus you provide guidance and “show them the ropes” (the act of showing them “how to fish”). It is a conundrum and balancing act only further complicated by the construct of morality; you “hold their hand” and shelter them too much and they become inherently less-capable of functioning alone (further magnifying any shortcomings that existed prior). Yet at the same time you need to guide them enough so that they won’t be doomed to failure, without taking it too far and undermining the purpose of the act.

TL;DR: So I’d say both of you raise good points @STARRYSOCK and @Deathi but this situation is a tangled web, one that will likely persist far into the future, that roots itself within the concepts of morality. Unfortunately this also means it becomes that much more complicated due to the nature of the construct, and likely a circular argument at this juncture.

(Szakalot) #49

lol this got off to unsuspected areas

you don’t have to deny your ‘baser emotions’ to not act on them. Saying that we shouldn’t deny our primitive, tribal mentality emotions sounds like a roundabout way of justifying them. Rather than uplift a primitive emotion to the top of your consciousness, acknowledge it as a simple, useless construct, and move on.

(B_Montiel) #50

Surprisingly, newcomers do have less training opportunities than we use to get from games almost 20 years ago.

My first fps encounter was on quake 3 arena and unreal tournament in 2000. We had a 56k broadband at home, so needless to say we could not play online. But the offline mod / tdm with bots on every single game was still very mandatory, and bots were good enough for proper aiming practice, and give you proper hard times when set to lasergods.

When we got our second PC in 2001, we had the opportunity to set some LANs at home, and right after the DSL broadband came in in early 2002. All this time farming bots trained us well enough to not become proper traffic cones when we joined our first multiplayer game on Q3, Urban Terror or W:ET back then. And this made a difference.

So yes, there’s close to no surprise in all I read here. People consider they can jump in a multiplayer game without any knowledge. And there’s no mandatory bots to play a couple of hours with before diving in anymore.

My best advice : as long as you’ve never done DOOM 2016 in ultra-violence level minimum, you should not even consider diving into a multiplayer FPS server, unless you’ll get covered under a mountain of spits.

(bgyoshi) #51

Nobody said you aren’t allowed to be frustrated by new players

Punishing new players for being new players is shit behavior
Intentionally playing on servers that could have new players when you hate playing with new players is like shooting yourself in the foot
There is no moral quandry at stake

If you hate playing with new players, don’t

If playing with incompetent players pisses you off, play PUGs

If you still getting pissed off playing PUGs with experienced players, then quit the game


(B_Montiel) #52

All these facts -I totally agree with- require some conditions that are mostly hard to fulfill on DB nowadays. The big leap backwards back then was the min level removal almost a year ago. That did hurt the mix a lot and increased the average toxicity massively on servers.

That said, there are community servers indeed now…

(D'@athi) #53

Btw, after having thought about this thread over and over, about the good and bad, about who you are and who you wanna hide from yourself and others, after having thought about hunters and gatherers, about the evoloution, and even more obviously, about why SD ripped it all apart and wanted us having to play with totally newbs, I also started to call-vote-kick at least idiots, who obviously didn’t do the turorial and/or are simply trolling.
So rly, thx for bringing clarity to my db-concerning dicisions.

PS: I am just a playah, not my job doing the community and/or the kindergarden.

(ZaZa) #54

Yeah, those vote kicks sometimes can be started by someone who is in an angry state of mind due to recent death or whatever and the players thinks he/ she should been saved by someone.
Personally, I like to play with both new and older players in the same team, doesn’t matter at all, but of course a shuffle should be done if you’re like getting based/ spawn killed, then it is unbalanced indeed.

Okay, so the deal is simple, if you cannot absolutely play on a server with less experienced players then yourself, go see a dedicated server CLICK HERE! and make the purchase and put password on it.

Other than that, I mean, the auto-shuffle is nice to be honest, a shuffle is made before the game starts at the Lobby whether it is Objective or Stopwatch and before you deploy in-game, so that is good and to have that kick feature, well, sort of good yeah, I kind of more would like to have an solid auto-kick feature who autokicks you for being inactive after a certain timelimit.

Also the shuffle vote is good to have, so players can vote for it when game is not balanced, however, I doubt it happen too often, at least on my gaming experience, which isn’t much, but seen a lot during the time and it doesn’t occur that often.

The auto-shuffle, probably takes in consideration the mercs selected, each individual player’s gaming time, player’s level and loadout card, then it is hard obviously to see the skill level in each individual, but perhaps an automatic shuffle in mid-game is good to have (besides the vote for team change we have, hardly happening in my gaming experience), if you play Stopwatch, or like a pair of shuffles within the Stopwatch and Objective rounds, I think that’d be interesting, perhaps you could at the Lobby, after map pick, perhaps chose how many auto-shuffles you would want, like one or two.

Or like an auto-shuffle in mid game, not if the teams were balanced, but if there were an unbalance and the other team didn’t came nowhere.

Should also need a shuffle when in mid game for example two from the same team quits the game, so someone instantly is transferred from the attacking team.

(Begin2018) #55

I agree. But ban them for toxicity!

(kopyright) #56

Probably, but some people seem to lack even the most basic motoric skills, like DB is their very first FPS ever (which I highly doubt).

(Xenithos) #57

They don’t just kick the new players. You know Tom Shanks, dude’s been kicked a million times, and it hasn’t been for him being salty, but too good or by salty players asking him to play medic or etc when they don’t stay alive for more than a second.

I totes agree, for a people who want more players many are being treated poorly and shouldn’t be.

(Teflon Love) #58

Many other modern FPS games / hero shooters still have these. For example, TF2 and CS:GO have plenty of modded training maps. Overwatch and Paladins have built in training maps where you can try out characters and abilities. And there’s bot matches on the standard maps.

Compare that with DB: even the cumbersome console fetish offline mode was removed because it could be used to get a few braindead hidden achievements that should have never made it in the game. Or does SD really expect you to watch a rocket fly in circles for more than 2 spawn cycles during a match? Uhb-jek-tivz anyone? Toxic by design.

(Rokon2) #59

One of the biggest issues I’ve seen in recent times is that people are afraid to lose. Back in my Quake days, it was about winning, sure, but more than that, people were trying to get better. I know the thread isn’t about winning/losing, but it plays a factor in this spiel. New players are inevitably going to fail a lot if they want to improve, and their teammates, should encourage them to improve; offer feedback, tips, things of that nature, instead of outright kicking them just because they don’t meet their standards. We do not need less players in this game, we need more. Kicking new players are not going to help them stay. They’re going to move on, because they’re going to get the impression that the game is filled with egotistical brats that care about winning and nothing more, new players be damned.

(Walter Farmer) #60

Hello I’m a newbie

I think game is just not about winning but also having fun and improving our skills. May be I’m bad but I can improve one day.

Best regards