Absolutely. You’re right. But as someone who plays Vassili most of the time, It’s just unfair that he can “Kobe! Kobe! Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!” and get kills by doing so… meanwhile silly me here, forced to have both my feet on the ground just so I can actually be worth a damn.
Thing is it’s not only Fletcher. Anyone with SMGs, Rifles or shotguns can jumpshoot and deal a very decent amount of damage.
Vassili is boring to play. He can be fun in pubs, but it gets pretty Samie pretty quickly. Jump shots would make it more fun. (Bearing in mind I never played Vassili pre nerf) and it’s pretty easy to flank a camping Vassili, so that argument is just silly.
Maybe the point is to make Vassili boring so noobs will pick easier mercs that are more useful.
What I am surprised about how insanely stubborn you both @Mercy @Merciless are about this.
Fuck that, I’ll discuss anyway.
You compare a weapon that will kill all but 2 mercs with one shot on an infinite range with hitscan to stickie-bombs that have limited range, a limited projectile speed, an arc and need to be detonated manually. (Besides that the sticky bombs have a limited AoE and you can’t always see if you hit someone because you don’t have the cool “Stuck to enemy” CoD message on screen). If Vassili would have projectiles with actual limited travel speed, a damage falloff and a bulletdrop, and not stupid hitscan guns, I would agree that the jump-nerf was unnecessary and too heavy but you fail to notice the massive differences, between a one hit one kill hitscan shot and things that are actual physical objects simply because you’re fans of the one.
You fail to understand, as @Matuno said, how insanely hard it was to counter the jump-shooter in many areas. And you compare the mechanic of sticking your head out for half a second out of a wall to an Aura that jumps up to you completely uncovered.
I can’t understand why you two can even think of those things being the same. An Aura you can shoot back and a Vassili you need to stay still and take aim on and risking to get a headshot cause you’re a sitting duck.
The discussion is useless by the way because one side try to argue and apply some logic behind it, while the other just say: “It’s not fair because I played the merc and I say so”
Now try to say why my points are wrong.
Why do you compare smg’s , shotguns and rifles with a sniper who can insta-kill across the whole map ? He’s not supposed to be good up close and personal. When a fletcher or aura come this close to jump shoot you , you deserve to die
Challenge accepted.
First, yes you do get a stuck message, you even get some experience for sticking somebody. Second, the reason for removing jumpshooting on snipers was, paraphrased, “it was an unfair playstyle that left little counterplay and was frustrating to play against.” If I read that statement to you without any context, you know what people would have guessed I was talking about? Nader spam, Fletcher spam, Proxy mines, Rhino camping, midrange shotguns and maybe, just maybe, Redeye or Vasilli camping, but nobody would have specifically brought up jump shotting. Furthermore, explosives spam around or above cover is, in practice, zero counter play with a much lower skill ceiling. Yet that doesn’t get hit at all. It’s safe to say that the reasoning applied to remove jump shotting was not applied across the board, and to more egregious targets.
[quote=“Jostabeere;159517”]If Vassili would have projectiles with actual limited travel speed, a damage falloff and a bulletdrop, and not stupid hitscan guns, I would agree that the jump-nerf was unnecessary and too heavy but you fail to notice the massive differences, between a one hit one kill hitscan shot and things that are actual physical objects simply because you’re fans of the one.
[/quote]
One shot one kill if Vasilli hit your head. Fletcher could one nade one kill Vasilli by hitting his little toe. And he had 3 of these aoe badboys to throw around at any given time, plus access to a good midrange smg. Fragger has access to an infinite number of grenades that can oneshot a group of mercs without even aiming at them. Nader has 5 nades that can direct impact kill half of the medics and proxy, and take off anywhere from a half to a third of the tankier mercs’ health without even landing near them. There’s a reason why Vasilli is mocked all the time in pubs, and it’s because most Vasillis are batshit garbage at the merc, no matter how broken you think a “one shot one kill hitscan shot” is.
This isn’t the awp we’re talking about here. All snipers in this game are more like the scout. And the scout has perfect accuracy at the peak of a jump. Which is scary to say that CS:GO rewards mobility on a sniper rifle more than a game that’s supposed to emphasize mobility as part of the gameplay.
As I’ve mentioned before in other threads, smokes will stop Vasilli, explosives will stop Vasilli, shooting back because he had 100 health would stop Vasilli. Counterplay doesn’t mean killing the merc, it means having a meaningful way to stop the merc. And the meaningful way to stop a jumping Vasilli was to make him unable to take a shot, or make him too scared to take that shot. A Vasilli will not keep jumping if nades are flying over his head, and Vasilli would lose almost a third of his health if you shot even slightly accurately at him when he jumped out of cover for a brief moment. Furthermore, jump shooting has noticeable downtime since Vasilli isn’t just floating magically at head level. You should theoretically have more trouble dealing with a Vasilli that’s crouched behind cover so only his head is visible because it allows him perfect overwatch with minimal cover exposed. And yet everybody knows how to counter that, even though Vasilli could easily just duck fully under cover when under fire in most situations where only his head is visible, simulating the worst case scenario of jumpshotting abuse with better returns.
Second, sure I could have shot back at an Aura, maybe for about .25 seconds because she was going to oneshot me with her shotgun from almost 2 EVs length away.
And it’s not like there’s cover in this game or corners she can use to reach that range. In fact, it’s not like most of the maps are tailored towards close to midrange combat. Jeez, no wonder snipers are so overpowered because everything in this game is tailored towards long range combat. /sarcasm
Ad hominem is clearly a logical argument, and I bow in the face of your everlasting logic to attack your opponents rather than their argument. Also Jostabeere’s father was a hamster and his mother smells of elderberries.
Sure, other spams are annoying. But can you counter them easily? Yes. Why? Because the mercs are not half across the map sticking their head out for half a second and killing you with one shot.
[quote=“Jostabeere;159517”]What I am surprised about how insanely stubborn you both @Mercy @Merciless are about this.
Now try to say why my points are wrong.[/quote]
@Dog pretty much covered everything.
From the experience when the Vassili still could jump snipe, you could counter that quite easily as well. Zigzag
From the experience when the Vassili still could jump snipe, you could counter that quite easily as well. Zigzag[/quote]
You can zigzag a Fletcher, Proxy, Nader, Aura, Rhino and others aswell. The main difference and point is you can shoot them since they’re visible for more than half a second.
Let’s look at a great competitive shooter. CSGO. Why can the Scout hit accurate while jumping, while the AWP can’t? Because it would be cheap and overpowered.
Why can MPs hit in air and even have better accuracy in air, but an AK can’t?
I appreciate you taking the time to actually construct a proper argument.
Challenge accepted.
First, yes you do get a stuck message, you even get some experience for sticking somebody. Second, the reason for removing jumpshooting on snipers was, paraphrased, “it was an unfair playstyle that left little counterplay and was frustrating to play against.” If I read that statement to you without any context, you know what people would have guessed I was talking about? Nader spam, Fletcher spam, Proxy mines, Rhino camping, midrange shotguns and maybe, just maybe, Redeye or Vasilli camping, but nobody would have specifically brought up jump shotting. Furthermore, explosives spam around or above cover is, in practice, zero counter play with a much lower skill ceiling. Yet that doesn’t get hit at all. It’s safe to say that the reasoning applied to remove jump shotting was not applied across the board, and to more egregious targets.[/quote]
Make no mistake, one OP merc doesn’t justify raising another to that status. Fletcher is fairly unanonimously agreed upon as needing a slap on the wrist. Most if not all of the other examples are counterable, direct line of sight playstyles. If you can’t dodge Nader’s grenades, you’re really doing it wrong. And if you think Rhino is OP, try playing him for a while. All these examples you mention still give you a chance to fire back or dodge it, whereas Vassili’s jumpshotting did not.
One shot one kill if Vasilli hit your head. Fletcher could one nade one kill Vasilli by hitting his little toe. And he had 3 of these aoe badboys to throw around at any given time, plus access to a good midrange smg. Fragger has access to an infinite number of grenades that can oneshot a group of mercs without even aiming at them. Nader has 5 nades that can direct impact kill half of the medics and proxy, and take off anywhere from a half to a third of the tankier mercs’ health without even landing near them. There’s a reason why Vasilli is mocked all the time in pubs, and it’s because most Vasillis are batshit garbage at the merc, no matter how broken you think a “one shot one kill hitscan shot” is.
This isn’t the awp we’re talking about here. All snipers in this game are more like the scout. And the scout has perfect accuracy at the peak of a jump. Which is scary to say that CS:GO rewards mobility on a sniper rifle more than a game that’s supposed to emphasize mobility as part of the gameplay.[/quote]
[quote=“Dog;159527”][quote=“Jostabeere;159517”]
You fail to understand, as @Matuno said, how insanely hard it was to counter the jump-shooter in many areas. And you compare the mechanic of sticking your head out for half a second out of a wall to an Aura that jumps up to you completely uncovered.
I can’t understand why you two can even think of those things being the same. An Aura you can shoot back and a Vassili you need to stay still and take aim on and risking to get a headshot cause you’re a sitting duck.
[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned before in other threads, smokes will stop Vasilli, explosives will stop Vasilli, shooting back because he had 100 health would stop Vasilli. Counterplay doesn’t mean killing the merc, it means having a meaningful way to stop the merc. And the meaningful way to stop a jumping Vasilli was to make him unable to take a shot, or make him too scared to take that shot. A Vasilli will not keep jumping if nades are flying over his head, and Vasilli would lose almost a third of his health if you shot even slightly accurately at him when he jumped out of cover for a brief moment. Furthermore, jump shooting has noticeable downtime since Vasilli isn’t just floating magically at head level. You should theoretically have more trouble dealing with a Vasilli that’s crouched behind cover so only his head is visible because it allows him perfect overwatch with minimal cover exposed. And yet everybody knows how to counter that, even though Vasilli could easily just duck fully under cover when under fire in most situations where only his head is visible, simulating the worst case scenario of jumpshotting abuse with better returns.[/quote]
As we’ve mentioned before, what was nerfed was the Vassili that jumppeeked over walls. You can try to whittle him down a little bit, but that was hard to do (Vassili does move a bit, and has complete control on whether or not to even rear his ugly head). Smoke doesn’t stop a heartbeat, explosives, as mentioned, are not an option. Less so if there’s no back wall to bounce it from.
Ignoring this. Git gud and learn what you’re talking about.
Yeah, Vassili shouldn’t be in this game to begin with. But here we are, and we’re trying to make the best of it.
Without jumpshotting he’s so useless, his kit now only oneshots all mercs but Thunder and Rhino at any range, can fire from cover with minimal headroom, can provide team vision of enemy’s whereabouts, is tanky enough to deal with light mercs with his sidearm without breaking a sweat. I mean, how is that even considered a merc? /sarcasm
Ad hominem is clearly a logical argument, and I bow in the face of your everlasting logic to attack your opponents rather than their argument. Also Jostabeere’s father was a hamster and his mother smells of elderberries.[/quote]
Heh, Monty Python. Nothing to add, to either of your comments.
From the experience when the Vassili still could jump snipe, you could counter that quite easily as well. Zigzag[/quote]
You can zigzag a Fletcher, Proxy, Nader, Aura, Rhino and others aswell. The main difference and point is you can shoot them since they’re visible for more than half a second.[/quote]
Or in Fletcher’s and Nader’s case, not necessarily visible at all if they’re throwing their shizz over the wall. Or, Nader pinging nades off the walls. But like, I don’t really have that strong feelings so I’m gonna leave my argument to that. I just myself never had problem with jumpsnipers, only like 10% of Vassilis were even decent with it
Btw, offtopic, if that’s you on your profile picture @Matuno, has anyone ever told you that you look like Peanutbuttergamer’s and Shaggy’s lovechild?
Never heard of 'em. Err, is that a bad thing?[/quote]
http://i.imgur.com/St0IfoT.jpg + http://i.imgur.com/QebBxyb.jpg = https://us.v-cdn.net/5021860/uploads/userpics/530/nWTMLBB76RMGI.jpg
Ah, THAT Shaggy! With a beard I actually look a like like him! Got the voice down and everything 
This checks out.
You are cute.
[/quote]
At least we can both agree on something
[quote=“Merciless;25330”]Discuss…
For Vassili players… if any out there… I don’t know if it’s just me but is it not frustrating to get killed by Auras that just leap towards you and shoot you with their shotguns? Is it not frustration to have fletchers bounce over and over and over and over and over again while throwing stickies on you? Jumping proxies and jumping this… jumping that… but me? Poor Vassili not able to do what the others do? Can’t jumpshoot… can’t hip fire…
It’s frustrating when I die when someone jumpshot me. I say to myself… if I could only do the same thing as that person did… I would’ve lived. I would have lived… Splash Damage.
Where’s the love Splash Damage?
Where is the love?[/quote]
While I don’t play vasilly I can see your point about fletcher, but it’s going to be a tricky one to solve without the solution further rumbling players. The forum would probably just be alternating jumpsnipe/jumpsticky threads.
So, as I say with a bit of hesitation…
What if you couldn’t throw and/or detonate stickies in midair, or if he does it gives him some kind of greater speed penalty? That’s a pretty big hit, but could that be balanced? Could fletcher’s stickies remain as they are radius wise but prevent him from just bounding down a hallway throwing them with minimal penalty?
I say this with the side note that I see as many incredible fletcher as fraggers, so I’m not sure that such a nerf would be at all justified. I’m just well gel I can’t do it. Other classes jumping and doing stuff seems to have less of an impact
The Vasillis that can lock down the whole street on Chapel by themselves don’t seem that poor to me, I think that’s very overdramatic.
Can someone get me a ohboyherewegoagain.jpg
From the experience when the Vassili still could jump snipe, you could counter that quite easily as well. Zigzag[/quote]
You can zigzag a Fletcher, Proxy, Nader, Aura, Rhino and others aswell. The main difference and point is you can shoot them since they’re visible for more than half a second.[/quote]
Or in Fletcher’s and Nader’s case, not necessarily visible at all if they’re throwing their shizz over the wall. Or, Nader pinging nades off the walls. But like, I don’t really have that strong feelings so I’m gonna leave my argument to that. I just myself never had problem with jumpsnipers, only like 10% of Vassilis were even decent with it[/quote]
Sure, they can throw or shoot the nades over wall. That’s absolutely true. But as I mentioned in the first post, nades and stickies are actual physical projectiles, and not a hitscan bullet with an infinite range.
Fletcher definitely needs a nerf. But Fletcher or some other spammy merc does not justify the mechanic people want back.
There are plenty of counters to a jumping Vassili. Some examples in particular are Arty’s airstrike or Kira’s laser. Both of which can easily kill or stop a Vassili from taking that same position again. Although good Vassilis can hold down an area, you can just as easily take him out with your nade spam or swift Aura.
It was pointless to nerf Vassili. That just took a huge chunk out of his playstyle and is one step further to making this game an even more linear, generic FPS.
I’ve adapted to this new playstyle, but it’s very boring and just not like it was. At least give Vassili a second ability.
[quote=“Sploosh;159567”]There are plenty of counters to a jumping Vassili. Some examples in particular are Arty’s airstrike or Kira’s laser. Both of which can easily kill or stop a Vassili from taking that same position again. Although good Vassilis can hold down an area, you can just as easily take him out with your nade spam or swift Aura.
It was pointless to nerf Vassili. That just took a huge chunk out of his playstyle and is one step further to making this game an even more linear, generic FPS.
I’ve adapted to this new playstyle, but it’s very boring and just not like it was. At least give Vassili a second ability. [/quote]
Pretty much this.
I personally miss jump sniping. 
I mean, I was never good at Vassili, but I just like the option of the movement.
Alas, if I had my way, the game would probably be a lazer accuracy gun fest. :U (this is why I am on community and not game design. I would probably suck at it.)
