Juan DaCova is a bug!

WillisYu · 2013-01-24 02:47:57 UTC

Juan DaCova is a bug with botherer! Maximum 200+ damage in one turn with 300 life points. And he can be invisible so he can be deployed anywhere. It breaks the game system balance to such an extent that we can almost all 40 level players have one JuanDaCova in their team or even two! I hate that but admittedly when I get enough money to buy him I will do that.:mad:

Hot-Wire · 2013-01-24 06:31:41 UTC

Buff the botherer to do 79 damage max per a shot, but cost 7 points to use.

Fixed.

Domm · 2013-01-24 08:10:36 UTC

I have to agree that Juan is the best toon, most because he is easy to use (megan and more are really great but harder to use).
Do not punish all toons just because Juan is the King for the moment. It should be a turn down on Juan, not a single weapon.

Sandman77 · 2013-01-24 21:26:05 UTC

Juan is to good I agree.

WillisYu · 2013-01-25 02:50:38 UTC

[QUOTE=Hot-Wire;421946]Buff the botherer to do 79 damage max per a shot, but cost 7 points to use.

Fixed.[/QUOTE]

Let’s count your idea:

in one turn 79*2=158, While Sneaky Pete can cause 60+ and 80+ if he use headshot. almost the same.

But If Sneaky Pete use headshot, he cannot move, while Juan can move one grid, 18-7-7=4. Pete only has 2 headshot. Let alone Juan has 50 plus life point.

Still makes players not to choose Sneaky Pete. The game should be balance, every character must have his/her pros and cons, right?

S4GRAD0 · 2013-01-25 12:10:57 UTC

[QUOTE=WillisYu;422105]Let’s count your idea:

in one turn 79*2=158, While Sneaky Pete can cause 60+ and 80+ if he use headshot. almost the same.

But If Sneaky Pete use headshot, he cannot move, while Juan can move one grid, 18-7-7=4. Pete only has 2 headshot. Let alone Juan has 50 plus life point.

Still makes players not to choose Sneaky Pete. The game should be balance, every character must have his/her pros and cons, right?[/QUOTE]

Your looking only on one perspective. This one, when Juan is waiting or standing still, and yeah, he can do a hell of a damage, but if his opponents are lighter ones, such as Kate, Madame, and Dave, his advantage is great mitigated. So still, it will all end on strategy and placement of toons.

Oopstwice · 2013-01-25 18:18:10 UTC

I likje his molotovcocktail most. Keeps causing damage.

tinker · 2013-01-26 15:23:52 UTC

I don’t know against which guys you play , what gametype you refer to and how good you are
so many people her nagging about agents and sniper rifles. I never had a huge problem against them.
sry to say that but if your in the firerange AND sight of the enemies agent you probably play with a bad strategy.

I love people who use the botherer or the avenger //7squad point sniper rifle // barret .50cal // because they are always so easy to beat.
those people focus on ONLY their sniper. kill everything else and go in close combat and it’s a win.

always try to figure out what YOU would do at the opponents point and do with your characters what you would HATE.
sometimes going towards the sniper is better than going away from him (as example)

WillisYu · 2013-01-28 09:37:16 UTC

Sorry, but I think you don’t read my comment and count that carefully. If you compare Juan and Pete, you will find in every perspective, Juan is stronger than Pete, except Pete can move 7 grids at maximum while Juan can only move 6 grids at maximum. That makes players have no reason to choose Pete if they have Juan.

Agree to win the game you ned strategy, but strategy is based on counting.

WillisYu · 2013-01-28 10:00:56 UTC

Hi tinker,

We have met in the challenge of Market and you won. Among the opponents, you’re the only one of 40 levels who do not use Juan. but you use 2 Kate.

Currently I have no solution to your 6 member team. My plan is to have at least one Red Cross in my team so I can heal the DMG caused by your Kate instead desperately rush forward after taking Kate’s gas bomb. When I have got the money to buy Juan and Kate I will try again.

Kate is another one I hate as the affecting field of her gas bomb is too large and can disregard obstacle. But I don’t want to list her as a bug since among the 3 healing characters, each has pros and cons. But Juan exceeds Pete in every respective. This should not be allowed in a balanced game system.

Without doubt, you’re among the best opponents that I’ve met in this game but I’m still surprised your disrespecting Snippers and curious to know what will happen when you meet players like: EL-CO, Ranger007 and Crozzton. Like I said, except you, all 40 playersI that I once lost have one or even two Juan. and all 40 players including you that I once lost have one or even two Kate.

[QUOTE=tinker;422265]I don’t know against which guys you play , what gametype you refer to and how good you are
so many people her nagging about agents and sniper rifles. I never had a huge problem against them.
sry to say that but if your in the firerange AND sight of the enemies agent you probably play with a bad strategy.

I love people who use the botherer or the avenger //7squad point sniper rifle // barret .50cal // because they are always so easy to beat.
those people focus on ONLY their sniper. kill everything else and go in close combat and it’s a win.

always try to figure out what YOU would do at the opponents point and do with your characters what you would HATE.
sometimes going towards the sniper is better than going away from him (as example)[/QUOTE]

tinker · 2013-01-28 16:04:55 UTC

thanks for the “respect”
I often use snipers, usually I have min.1 in my team, there is just a huge debate about snipers in the forum and I want to show people here : you do not NEED snipers.
my favourit team is still : Dave(cold audomatic) + sneaky Pete (otto semi-auto) + commander artillery (hoo-hah AR )
but in the tourney it is unplayable. Without heal I loose vs the maximum passive gameplay of ppl in the tourney, but even there I try to use the least sniper classes I can, but there are some maps where they are nearly 100% necessary due to the lack of cover in the center field. e.g. Bridge- hard without snipers
city center - I don’t like that map so much, If you ARE in the center field, there is no 100% cover, only yellow or red (50% / 25?% )
embankment also quite hard without snipers
but the rest is defenetly doable without snipers.
I just clicked through my ~500 games I made yet (I think there are more, I usually make screenshots of each ending but I don’t find the rest) .
about 40% of my won games is played without any sniper class OR only 1 in the 20/26pt games.
more than 50% of the games is with pete dave and commander (That’s why I always claim: you do not NEED anymore, you have everything you need right when you start the game) the rest is played with strange setups that work but I don’t want to count them to anything here -e.g. double DEE hatlacker at 14pts, double tim taschman . double angela merci…
I don’t actually know how I play against EL-CO and Crozzton - i think we are quite even but we will probably see in the tourney. - and I have no Idea if I have every played against Ranger007
I just can say, there are not many games I got ruled out. Mostly I loose because I make a cruel mistake but the game then often ends with
<100 hp vs 0 hp . and I documentate these games even more because I mostly remember my mistakes and don’t repeat them unless I don’t think before sending the turn.

so to repeat: I actually like snipers very much. I love them with Dave and marx - I love the double pushback - the enemies are often surprised by it - but I like Soldiers also.
the problem is that the support fire is O.K. but together with the commonly “weak” or difficult abilities like C4 or concussion grenade and the low range of these things make them harder to play.
I tend to use Ivan on Market though and I will also play more Suds soon but probably not often in the tourney.
Instead Megan,dee,juan,kate,marx,lahacque and sometimes even Ivan, Dave and Grosso

1 more thing about Kates Grenade - it does NOT disregard Obstacles. as far as I experienced it always affects your target if there is a way of going to that target with 3 steps from the grenade . if there is no way it won’t affect the target but Obstacles often allow you to avoid the poison. it’s hard to describe but the radius of 3 is important - 3 steps away from the grenade, if the is a obstacle - the poison has to go AROUND the obstacle…

Edit : forget one thing
Petes Headshot NEEDS a buff to 30 or 40.(calculate it yourself ) 25dmg for 2 energy is quite weak compared to other abilities. he then may compede with Juan
why weak? because nearly every dmg ability does more. dave grenade : 50-70dmg for 3 energy ; Kate poison : 100 dmg in 3 turns for 3 energy in a huge area ; juan cocktail : 73 dmg for 6 energy in a quite huge area
Megans Mines and Suds c4 have a special thing - hard to hit but still about 50-100dmg for 2 energy
archie explosive arrows aren’t the best but still 100% penetrates cover for 6 energy about 60 dmg
…

hope you get me
with friendly regards
me

Sandman77 · 2013-01-28 19:39:01 UTC

Ah Tinker what would the forum do without you…

I will challenge you again!!!

WillisYu · 2013-01-29 05:16:19 UTC

Glad to see you agree Petes needs to get a few more buff to be balanced against Juan, Otherwise more and more players will abandon Pete and turn to Juan.

Will catch you later when I save enough money to buy Juan. Lol…

[QUOTE=tinker;422476]thanks for the “respect”
I often use snipers, usually I have min.1 in my team, there is just a huge debate about snipers in the forum and I want to show people here : you do not NEED snipers.
my favourit team is still : Dave(cold audomatic) + sneaky Pete (otto semi-auto) + commander artillery (hoo-hah AR )
but in the tourney it is unplayable. Without heal I loose vs the maximum passive gameplay of ppl in the tourney, but even there I try to use the least sniper classes I can, but there are some maps where they are nearly 100% necessary due to the lack of cover in the center field. e.g. Bridge- hard without snipers
city center - I don’t like that map so much, If you ARE in the center field, there is no 100% cover, only yellow or red (50% / 25?% )
embankment also quite hard without snipers
but the rest is defenetly doable without snipers.
I just clicked through my ~500 games I made yet (I think there are more, I usually make screenshots of each ending but I don’t find the rest) .
about 40% of my won games is played without any sniper class OR only 1 in the 20/26pt games.
more than 50% of the games is with pete dave and commander (That’s why I always claim: you do not NEED anymore, you have everything you need right when you start the game) the rest is played with strange setups that work but I don’t want to count them to anything here -e.g. double DEE hatlacker at 14pts, double tim taschman . double angela merci…
I don’t actually know how I play against EL-CO and Crozzton - i think we are quite even but we will probably see in the tourney. - and I have no Idea if I have every played against Ranger007
I just can say, there are not many games I got ruled out. Mostly I loose because I make a cruel mistake but the game then often ends with
<100 hp vs 0 hp . and I documentate these games even more because I mostly remember my mistakes and don’t repeat them unless I don’t think before sending the turn.

so to repeat: I actually like snipers very much. I love them with Dave and marx - I love the double pushback - the enemies are often surprised by it - but I like Soldiers also.
the problem is that the support fire is O.K. but together with the commonly “weak” or difficult abilities like C4 or concussion grenade and the low range of these things make them harder to play.
I tend to use Ivan on Market though and I will also play more Suds soon but probably not often in the tourney.
Instead Megan,dee,juan,kate,marx,lahacque and sometimes even Ivan, Dave and Grosso

1 more thing about Kates Grenade - it does NOT disregard Obstacles. as far as I experienced it always affects your target if there is a way of going to that target with 3 steps from the grenade . if there is no way it won’t affect the target but Obstacles often allow you to avoid the poison. it’s hard to describe but the radius of 3 is important - 3 steps away from the grenade, if the is a obstacle - the poison has to go AROUND the obstacle…

Edit : forget one thing
Petes Headshot NEEDS a buff to 30 or 40.(calculate it yourself ) 25dmg for 2 energy is quite weak compared to other abilities. he then may compede with Juan
why weak? because nearly every dmg ability does more. dave grenade : 50-70dmg for 3 energy ; Kate poison : 100 dmg in 3 turns for 3 energy in a huge area ; juan cocktail : 73 dmg for 6 energy in a quite huge area
Megans Mines and Suds c4 have a special thing - hard to hit but still about 50-100dmg for 2 energy
archie explosive arrows aren’t the best but still 100% penetrates cover for 6 energy about 60 dmg
…

hope you get me
with friendly regards
me[/QUOTE]

Coup_de_grace · 2013-01-29 13:14:32 UTC

Juan + botherer is indeed quite a bother standing still, but whatever standstill firepower he has he makes up with the lack of movement. Ultimately no matter which of the three Agent units, the balance and setup of the team and commander abilities on the particular map is the deciding factor, excluding strategy and a little luck~

Ranger007 · 2013-01-31 17:59:04 UTC

I still think the movement kinda make up the fact that pete deals a bit less dmg than juan. I mean if u are careless enough to stay out of cover and within juan’s sight, that’s kinda your problem, isnt it? If u have to talk about dmg dealing, what about Madame when compares to pete and juan? Dont get me wrong, I love Madame the most because she’s the most capable toon ever with her UAV in my opinion. She can do a lot of things like running around and helping on different spots, shoot and run, being invisible, and her UAV can use as threat, blockade, detector, and bomb.

As I am typing and thinking about “pete vs juan” problem, I changed my mind. I actually agree with Juan is more power in most ways compare to Pete, but not completely

1. Standing still:
Case 1: Juan’s 207dmg > Pete’s 190 dmg (2hs)
Case 2: Juan’s 2 shot + cocktail = 69+69+30~39+123 = 168~177 instant dmg + 122 Dot / Pete’s 190 dmg (2hs)

       in Case 2, Pete's instant dmg &gt; Juan's instant dmg, But Juan wins in total dmg

2. Behind a cover:
Juan case1: 1 step out of cover -> 138dmg -> back to cover
Juan case2: 1 step out of cover -> 69+30~39+12 = 111-120 instant dmg + 12*2 DoT -> back to cover

 Pete case 1: 1 step out of cover -&gt; 164dmg (hs precast) -&gt; out of cover
 Pete case 2: 1 step out of cover -&gt; 95dmg (cast hs) -&gt; 2 steps left
 Pete case 3: 1 step out of cover -&gt; 95dmg (hs precast) -&gt; 3 steps left

(there are some trade offs)

 conclusion: Juan and Pete tie in some sort of ways. If they are not in optimal range, pete's flexibility, which juan doesnt have, allows him to move into the spot. [B]EDIT: With Otto, Pete can do more dmg than using bother in case 2 & 3[/B]

3: Ability:
Juan: ~30-39 + 12 = ~42-50 instant dmg + 12x2 DoT
Pete: ~50 instant dmg (2 hs)

conclusion: Juan’s can deal almost the same instant dmg as Pete, but not consistent at 50 and lower range than a sniper. Some may argue the grenade hit 3 squares away but dmg decreases as further away from target I believe. And that consistent 50 extra dmg may just give pete the edge of killing the opponent in the same round. However, I would have to say Juan’s ability can hit up to as many opponents as there are on the field which is completely insane. And comparing to pete, juan is better at dealing dmg against opponent who is under cover with his cocktail.

So I would conclude that Juan is SLIGHTLY more powerful than Pete, and the balance adjustments between these 2 characters are not as easy as you guys suggested.

Btw, I used to play with pete and madame and after I have enough for Juan, I switched to madame + Juan.

Coup_de_grace · 2013-02-01 01:50:53 UTC

Its the sniper psychological fear that people fear about juan, which is currently the only sniper to deal triple shots. His standstill firepower is nothing compared to a standstill Carlito+stumpington beside you. He deals a whooping ( Effectve dmg 57 X 6 times = 342 dmg ) but you dont see people complaining that he is overpowered. Sure the sniper rifle has got range compared to SG but every step juan takes his firepower drops drastically. Basically if juan has to move even THREE steps to get a shot at you he isn’t faring any better than Madamme or Pete.

WillisYu · 2013-02-01 03:27:49 UTC

Aha! Glad you join the discussion Ranger007.

You elaborate all my points about the overbalance of Juan over Pete, except Juan has 300 life points while Pete has 250! 50 life points can cause huge difference in one turn. If you cannot kill opponnet’s Juan in one turn. Next turn you will feel the horror of the DMG he can cause. That’s why more and more players choose Juan.

Thanks so much you choose 3 teammates challenge to play with me. You must feel sorry as I’m too poor to have Juan and Kate in my team.
Among the player whose level below 40, you’re the best player I’ve met. Every move with careful calculation. Tell you what, I just bought a Juan and I’m using it to preach why it is called as a bug! Let’s play a 26 points again, don’t bring Kate!

[QUOTE=Ranger007;423338]I still think the movement kinda make up the fact that pete deals a bit less dmg than juan. I mean if u are careless enough to stay out of cover and within juan’s sight, that’s kinda your problem, isnt it? If u have to talk about dmg dealing, what about Madame when compares to pete and juan? Dont get me wrong, I love Madame the most because she’s the most capable toon ever with her UAV in my opinion. She can do a lot of things like running around and helping on different spots, shoot and run, being invisible, and her UAV can use as threat, blockade, detector, and bomb.

As I am typing and thinking about “pete vs juan” problem, I changed my mind. I actually agree with Juan is more power in most ways compare to Pete, but not completely

1. Standing still:
Case 1: Juan’s 207dmg > Pete’s 190 dmg (2hs)
Case 2: Juan’s 2 shot + cocktail = 69+69+30~39+123 = 168~177 instant dmg + 122 Dot / Pete’s 190 dmg (2hs)

       in Case 2, Pete's instant dmg &gt; Juan's instant dmg, But Juan wins in total dmg

2. Behind a cover:
Juan case1: 1 step out of cover -> 138dmg -> back to cover
Juan case2: 1 step out of cover -> 69+30~39+12 = 111-120 instant dmg + 12*2 DoT -> back to cover

 Pete case 1: 1 step out of cover -&gt; 164dmg (hs precast) -&gt; out of cover
 Pete case 2: 1 step out of cover -&gt; 95dmg (cast hs) -&gt; 2 steps left
 Pete case 3: 1 step out of cover -&gt; 95dmg (hs precast) -&gt; 3 steps left

(there are some trade offs)

 conclusion: Juan and Pete tie in some sort of ways. If they are not in optimal range, pete's flexibility, which juan doesnt have, allows him to move into the spot. [B]EDIT: With Otto, Pete can do more dmg than using bother in case 2 & 3[/B]

3: Ability:
Juan: ~30-39 + 12 = ~42-50 instant dmg + 12x2 DoT
Pete: ~50 instant dmg (2 hs)

conclusion: Juan’s can deal almost the same instant dmg as Pete, but not consistent at 50 and lower range than a sniper. Some may argue the grenade hit 3 squares away but dmg decreases as further away from target I believe. And that consistent 50 extra dmg may just give pete the edge of killing the opponent in the same round. However, I would have to say Juan’s ability can hit up to as many opponents as there are on the field which is completely insane. And comparing to pete, juan is better at dealing dmg against opponent who is under cover with his cocktail.

So I would conclude that Juan is SLIGHTLY more powerful than Pete, and the balance adjustments between these 2 characters are not as easy as you guys suggested.

Btw, I used to play with pete and madame and after I have enough for Juan, I switched to madame + Juan. :)[/QUOTE]

WillisYu · 2013-02-01 03:51:58 UTC

Agree, but we’re talking about Juan is bug not sniper is a bug. I call it bug not because it can do everything but it causes Pete almost worthless. If you disagree, please show me a scenario in which Pete can do better than Juan.

And mostly we’re refering 26 points game, in which sniper is a tactic DMG executing power. Normally, toon with shortgun barely has chance to meet sniper face to face as a good player with sniper will not give you the chance. That’s why every one team has one or two (I’ve seen 4)snipper, while not every team has a shortgun toon. This is because in this game, you need snipper to cause main DMG or push enemy to the direction you want, like a music, sniper is the main rhythem. tinker is the only exception I know who has 2 Kates for DMG output.

EL-CO · 2013-02-01 04:13:56 UTC

Pete can show his advantage in movement over Juan only when he doesn’t fire at all (7 sq to 6 sq) or fire only once with Otto (5 sq to 4 sq). This will make little difference as they usually don’t need to move a lot with long range weapons. Gus’s water cannon makes Pete’s movement advantage even smaller. I agree with Ranger007 in most of the part, but you should be careful that the comparison is basically made on Juan without any ability (instant damage is always higher without his DOT ability) and Pete with his headshot ability (only 2 times in a game). Once Pete used his headshot ability, Pete can deal much less damage compare to Juan. In 20 or 26 point match, this will be a huge advantage for Juan. Also, you have to keep in mind that Juan’s ability can affect several units.

So I would say Juan is easier to use and more powerful in general compared to Pete, especially with Gus. I’m OK with current Juan (although I feel that his DoT is too easy. 10 or 8 damage per turn instead of 12 is enough), but Pete can have more advantage over Juan. Increasing the power of headshot or enable headshot to ignore partial cover (ex. red cover will have no effect and yellow cover will become red cover against headshot) or increase the number limit for headshot (5-6 times in a game) or something like that. I used Pete a lot before Juan came in, but now I almost never use Pete.

Nobody will allow Carlito to stand still beside his unit, although it’s really hard to be out of the range of sniper rifles. Just comparing the maximum damage is not quite useful, I think.

Bwade · 2013-02-01 04:15:57 UTC

[QUOTE=WillisYu;423480]Agree, but we’re talking about Juan is bug not sniper is a bug. I call it bug not because it can do everything but it causes Pete almost worthless. If you disagree, please show me a scenario in which Pete can do better than Juan.

And mostly we’re refering 26 points game, in which sniper is a tactic DMG executing power. Normally, toon with shortgun barely has chance to meet sniper face to face as a good player with sniper will not give you the chance. That’s why every one team has one or two (I’ve seen 4)snipper, while not every team has a shortgun toon. This is because in this game, you need snipper to cause main DMG or push enemy to the direction you want, like a music, sniper is the main rhythem. tinker is the only exception I know who has 2 Kates for DMG output.[/QUOTE]

Pete isnt on juan’s level because you can get him for free and he is cheaper so why should he be better or even equal? Look at suds people complain his c4 isnt strong enough, the reason its weak is because its just a begginer character rookies can start off with i mean the guy costs 15000 im glad he isnt good. Pete is just a sniper people can get if they want one.