Javelin is Air/Fire Support or shes Assault. Devs need to pick one not both


(KayDubz) #21

@zadory said:

Every other AIR support merc (leaving out Stoker, since hes not Air) has an obvious beam of light to gives away the position of their special ability before it lands. Every other air support ability is near useless indoors and cannot instagib the way Javelin can. Every other air support merc has to make an effort to give ammo…it isn’t automatic.

And every other AIR support merc requires several seconds before their special ability reaches an enemy (on top of a longer cooldown than Javelin)


(GatoCommodore) #22

@KayDubz said:

@zadory said:

Every other AIR support merc (leaving out Stoker, since hes not Air) has an obvious beam of light to gives away the position of their special ability before it lands. Every other air support ability is near useless indoors and cannot instagib the way Javelin can. Every other air support merc has to make an effort to give ammo…it isn’t automatic.

And every other AIR support merc requires several seconds before their special ability reaches an enemy (on top of a longer cooldown than Javelin)

you mean FIRE support mercs


(KayDubz) #23

@GatoCommodore said:

@KayDubz said:

@zadory said:

Every other AIR support merc (leaving out Stoker, since hes not Air) has an obvious beam of light to gives away the position of their special ability before it lands. Every other air support ability is near useless indoors and cannot instagib the way Javelin can. Every other air support merc has to make an effort to give ammo…it isn’t automatic.

And every other AIR support merc requires several seconds before their special ability reaches an enemy (on top of a longer cooldown than Javelin)

you mean FIRE support mercs

I mean air support. Which is why I said AIR…to purposefully leave out Stoker who of all the Fire support mercs, is NOT also an Air support merc.


(kopyright) #24

@KayDubz said:
*2. Arty Kira and Sky have to direct hit you with an air strike/laser and it has to damage you multiple times.

With Sky you can be 5m away from the blast and still get instagibbed, though.


(sgtSZKLARZ) #25

I think that ammo generator is too OP, now my Arty is useless beacuse one Javelin can give ammo for whole team just running near them. This shoud be skill like Phoenix pulse, with cooldown etc.


(Mr-Penguin) #26

@kopyright said:

@KayDubz said:
*2. Arty Kira and Sky have to direct hit you with an air strike/laser and it has to damage you multiple times.

With Sky you can be 5m away from the blast and still get instagibbed, though.

But you can see the airstrike coming pretty easily. A rocket? Not so much.


(bgyoshi) #27

Why doesn’t this thread exist for Fletcher too

Oh wait it’s because of the huge influx of NaCL for absolutely no reason


(KayDubz) #28

@bgyoshi said:
Why doesn’t this thread exist for Fletcher too

Oh wait it’s because of the huge influx of NaCL for absolutely no reason

Fletcher can gib you with one sticky? Oh wait he cant.

And he was just nerfed again in the Javelin update…on top of STILL having weapon switching issues that aren’t completely fixed with him.

Take your cow-plop troll post elsewhere kid. You are late to the party and bring nothing to this discussion.


(bgyoshi) #29

@KayDubz said:

Fletcher can gib you with one sticky? Oh wait he cant.

Well let’s see…

The argument that Javelin can “instagib” is people whining that “but my HP is low and I get rocketted and instantly gibbed”

One sticky is either 80 damage or 100 damage

So yeah, one sticky will instagib you

“But only if you took damage first”

Oh well I know that but if I keep saying Fletcher (Javelin) is OP instagib while omitting the part where you need to have taken damage first then maybe SD will nerf it because it’s clearly OP and not my lack of smart playing that’s getting me killed.

Also the “nerf” was a +1 second cooldown to the stickies (lmfao) and increasing max shotgun damage range to 3m instead of 2m. Damage was untouched.

Yeah sounds like a nerf to me


(woodchip) #30

Javelin’s rockets insta gib on direct hits even vs a 100% HP Rhino with explosive resistance. Fletcher’s bombs gib when you are below 50 or so health.

I know it’s a subtle distinction but if you think about it very, very carefully (don’t hurt yourself!) you can see why those are very different things.


(bgyoshi) #31

@woodchip said:
Javelin’s rockets insta gib on direct hits even vs a 100% HP Rhino with explosive resistance. Fletcher’s bombs gib when you are below 50 or so health.

Got any video evidence of that claim?

Oh, no you don’t.

I was actually going to complain when more than one direct hit rocket on a full HP rhino didn’t kill him

But then I realized he had explosive resistance and it made sense


(KayDubz) #32

Dude…its common knowledge direct hits with Javelin instagib full health mercs. Shes the only mercs who can instagib indoors without an air strike and in one direct hit.

awaitsnerf


(KayDubz) #33

@bgyoshi said:

@KayDubz said:

Fletcher can gib you with one sticky? Oh wait he cant.

Well let’s see…

The argument that Javelin can “instagib” is people whining that “but my HP is low and I get rocketted and instantly gibbed”

One sticky is either 80 damage or 100 damage

So yeah, one sticky will instagib you

“But only if you took damage first”

Oh well I know that but if I keep saying Fletcher (Javelin) is OP instagib while omitting the part where you need to have taken damage first then maybe SD will nerf it because it’s clearly OP and not my lack of smart playing that’s getting me killed.

Also the “nerf” was a +1 second cooldown to the stickies (lmfao) and increasing max shotgun damage range to 3m instead of 2m. Damage was untouched.

Yeah sounds like a nerf to me

You clearly don’t play the game enough, or pay attention to patch notes and player stats.

1 sticky is 90 max damage now. It cannot instagib anyone on full health. It wont instagib unless you have below 30 HP or so…and still then it depends on the merc whos being killed.

Fletcher was just nerfed and cant one sticky kill Pheonix anymore.

Tell me how he belongs in a discussion about Javelin when she can one shot gib every merc in the game on direct hits? And when shes the only one with this ability without air strikes (which are slow to arrive btw)


(GatoCommodore) #34

@KayDubz said:

@bgyoshi said:

@KayDubz said:

Fletcher can gib you with one sticky? Oh wait he cant.

Well let’s see…

The argument that Javelin can “instagib” is people whining that “but my HP is low and I get rocketted and instantly gibbed”

One sticky is either 80 damage or 100 damage

So yeah, one sticky will instagib you

“But only if you took damage first”

Oh well I know that but if I keep saying Fletcher (Javelin) is OP instagib while omitting the part where you need to have taken damage first then maybe SD will nerf it because it’s clearly OP and not my lack of smart playing that’s getting me killed.

Also the “nerf” was a +1 second cooldown to the stickies (lmfao) and increasing max shotgun damage range to 3m instead of 2m. Damage was untouched.

Yeah sounds like a nerf to me

You clearly don’t play the game enough, or pay attention to patch notes and player stats.

1 sticky is 90 max damage now. It cannot instagib anyone on full health. It wont instagib unless you have below 30 HP or so…and still then it depends on the merc whos being killed.

Fletcher was just nerfed and cant one sticky kill Pheonix anymore.

Tell me how he belongs in a discussion about Javelin when she can one shot gib every merc in the game on direct hits? And when shes the only one with this ability without air strikes (which are slow to arrive btw)

you know, fletcher got 3 of those 90 damage.
stick 2 and youll find out


(KayDubz) #35

@GatoCommodore said:

@KayDubz said:

@bgyoshi said:

@KayDubz said:

Fletcher can gib you with one sticky? Oh wait he cant.

Well let’s see…

The argument that Javelin can “instagib” is people whining that “but my HP is low and I get rocketted and instantly gibbed”

One sticky is either 80 damage or 100 damage

So yeah, one sticky will instagib you

“But only if you took damage first”

Oh well I know that but if I keep saying Fletcher (Javelin) is OP instagib while omitting the part where you need to have taken damage first then maybe SD will nerf it because it’s clearly OP and not my lack of smart playing that’s getting me killed.

Also the “nerf” was a +1 second cooldown to the stickies (lmfao) and increasing max shotgun damage range to 3m instead of 2m. Damage was untouched.

Yeah sounds like a nerf to me

You clearly don’t play the game enough, or pay attention to patch notes and player stats.

1 sticky is 90 max damage now. It cannot instagib anyone on full health. It wont instagib unless you have below 30 HP or so…and still then it depends on the merc whos being killed.

Fletcher was just nerfed and cant one sticky kill Pheonix anymore.

Tell me how he belongs in a discussion about Javelin when she can one shot gib every merc in the game on direct hits? And when shes the only one with this ability without air strikes (which are slow to arrive btw)

you know, fletcher got 3 of those 90 damage.
stick 2 and youll find out

What fletcher takes time to try and stick someone twice? Either way, youre only proving my point. I have to aim TWO stickies to kill and possibly gib someone …while Javelin needs only one rocket to gib someone…and she can do that shooting at someone’s feet.


(henki000) #36

I think the solution for this instagib matter would be buffing downed mercs. They could shoot with pistols with reduced acc or creep slowly. Then it should not be counted as a kill if they get revived.


(Eox) #37

@henki000 said:
I think the solution for this instagib matter would be buffing downed mercs. They could shoot with pistols with reduced acc or creep slowly. Then it should not be counted as a kill if they get revived.

Or you could simply nerf the rocket to share the same row firepower than the frag grenade (170 on explosion if I remember correctly), which would also put it a bit more back in line with the frag grenade itself (not enough but still matters). Direct hits would still be instant gib due to the projectile itself dealing 200 damage plus the explosion, but they aren’t that common.

This would basically avoid to change a whole mechanic that doesn’t really need any changes at all just because one ability seems too powerful.


(henki000) #38

@Eox

Or there could be jump to prone move, reducing explosion impact. Making it easier to dodge rockets. It could be used to shoot in more undetected spot and slightly reduce overall recoil. Maybe even play dead button, like in W:ET. Giving you a chance to fight back in multiple ways against rocket.


(bgyoshi) #39

@KayDubz said:
Tell me how he belongs in a discussion about Javelin when she can one shot gib every merc in the game on direct hits? And when shes the only one with this ability without air strikes (which are slow to arrive btw)

Please show me the compilation of direct rocket hits vs direct sticky hits

Oh yeah, it’s about 600,000x easier to stick a bomb on someone, that’s right.

He belongs in the discussion because he is the best engineer and no other engineer can ever hope to compete with him in power. Turtle comes close having clutch shield defusing possibilities, but that has yet to be tested in a 5v5 environment. Proxy is too weak to compete; mines don’t go far, have to be shot, and she has very low HP. Bushy has no explosives and his turret is a pea shooter. Turtle has almost no combat capabilities BUT his shield is very useful and can slide a battle one way or another. Fletcher is fast, has infinite grenades, and both a shotgun or blishlok. Fletcher can detonate a mine and spray fire a shotgun before you even know you’ve been stuck.

That’s the definition of an actually OP merc; a merc that outclasses everyone of his type in every area. He has more HP, explosives, damage, and survivability than all engineers, on top of having no weaknesses.

Jav is good, but can’t destroy the EV like Kira, Arty, or Haggis. Jav is good, but rockets are extremely limited in functionality compared to nader nades. Jav is good, but can’t disable bombs and support stations like Phantom. Every other support has benefits over Jav that Jav can’t compete with, and Jav has the benefit of a combat explosive and autodistributing ammo. Those two things don’t outclass all other support, it just makes her different.


(woodchip) #40

@bgyoshi

The way Javelin is overtuned has less to do with how much she outclasses her peers than it does with how she outclasses them. Her main strength is that her ability is way better at getting consistent kills than the other fire support stuff. Shot for shot, it’s better at getting consistent kills than Fragger’s nade. It’s so good at getting consistent kills that it feels unfair in a way nothing else in the game does.

I’m talking about the ‘fair fight’ sense of fair, rather than the ‘balanced’ sense. Javelin consistently allows you to get virtually free kills, where the enemy has no realistic option of counterplay. Not always–Jav rockets are dodgeable in some situations. But in many other situations there’s nothing you can do to not get killed, like whenever she has a height advantage. There are also some situations where Fragger can get virtually guaranteed kills regardless of counterplay, but those situations are rarer and also require the Fragger to be fairly skilled. The combination of low skill floor + consistentish autokills makes Javelin uniquely ‘unfair’ in the ‘fair fight’ sense. Nothing else in DB feels like it.

That’s different from her being OP relative to her fire support peers. She IS OP relative to her peers, but not by an insane margin. She’s probably about as superior to the other fire supports as Fletcher is to the other Engis, maybe a bit more. She roundly outclasses Stoker and Skyhammer in almost all non-EV situations, and is clearly stronget than Kira except on a handful of map points. Her rocket does barely less DPS / min to the EV than the lazer, actually. Her most played loadouts give her a rocket CD almost 1/2 the lazers.

She is much weaker to EV’s than Arty tho. Because arty is bonkers vs the EV to the point where Arty stacking can virtually break the game on EV maps.

But Arty being kind of rediculous vs EVs is not a good argument for Javelin being kind of ridiculous vs players. It does mean she isn’t quite as outright superior vs her peers as Fletcher is vs Proxy: there’s at least 1 thing she doesn’t do as well. But that’s not very important.

Right now Javelin is the outright best fire support on any map or point without an EV, with the possible exception of the last point of chapel. And she is the best because her ability kills people consistently, often with little counterplay. She IS OP, and the way in which she is OP is especially frustrating.

Think of it another way: how ridiculous at killing people would a merc have to be in order to be better than Arty even on EV maps? Javelin is almost that.

The design of 1 fire support merc being especially weak to EVs but especially good against players is just not a good design. It wasn’t a good design in stoker 1.0, and it’s not a good design now. The ‘depth’ it adds is fake, and it leads to an unnatural situation where mercs swing from gimped to broken based on whether there is an EV to shoot. That’s lame.

It’s not necessary or desirable to totally homogenize anti EV power, but probably Arty should be a bit weaker and Javelin should be a bit stronger at it.