Iron sights - the bane of modern fps. Discuss!


(warbie) #1

I’d argue that it’s the fluidity of movement and gunplay that made RTCW and ET great. Sure, class and objective based play was key too, but it was that combined with the twitching, tracking and movement from Quake that turned these games into the super aggressive and fast team-based fps most people here love. Years later this still sets these games aside and makes them special - they’re still talked about in all of the PC gaming forums I frequent. Which brings me to iron sights, which are the devil.

Iron sights don’t allow for this kind of flow. They break it up and slow the tempo. Just the impact of having to stop or slow to a crawl to shoot is massive - gone is the dance of twitching from target to target and tracking them as they move, and in it’s place something more fragmented and chance based as static targets spam away with bouncing guns taking up half the screen. Iron sights discourage aggressive play (bursting into a room full of people and stopping to shoot not being the best tactic in the world!) and put more emphasis on caution and defense (which some people like to think of as clever play, but what we really know is camping and hoping to see someone before they see you :tongue:). They are one of the two great equalisers in current fps (the other being low health) and are a great method for lowering the skill ceiling (which, in the name of accessibility, is why many modern fps have adopted this way of play). Make it easy to kill and so random that luck plays a large factor and more people will be able to do well, be happy, and pay you more money. To see this refined to a tee you just have to play CoD, which is essentially a Benny Hill show with guns, with lots of people running around, shooting each other in the back, and getting kills with a few hits to the knee. Rinse and repeat, mask any sense of real progression with unlocks, and job done.

So what’s the problem? Just make a game without iron sights. Easy. Ah, but why don’t we have the best of both worlds - we could marry hip firing with iron sights! Wouldn’t that be great? No. It won’t be. And here’s why - it will be a balancing nightmare that impacts how the entire game plays. To keep any sense of the combat enjoyed in RTCW/ET (I’m now getting Splash Damage specific and assuming this is a goal for future projects) hip firing will have to be viable to a fairly decent range, making iron sighting a handicap as people get circle strafed and minced. Suddenly the forums are filled with people crying for smg nerfs. And why not, most have grown up with games like CoD and either don’t know any better or like that kind of lottery play. So, smgs start to get ‘balanced’ and hip firing accuracy/range gets reduced. Now running about with an smg is like having one of those weird pisses where streams go off in all directions. Out goes precision (along with the competitive community) and in comes random luck. And what about player health? - iron sights really aren’t suited to the bullet sponges we had in RTCW/ET, especially if the game has any pace. That will have to be ‘balanced’ too. But now we have iron sights, random firing smgs and people with not much health running about - whoops, we have CoD with classes! And would that be so bad, at least from a monetary point of view? Try to take what was great about old games and cross that with what’s popular in current. Maybe not, but you run a serious risk of producing a game that doesn’t know what it wants to be, pleasing neither old or new players and scrabbling with other companies for scraps from CoD’s table. It won’t be a game that makes a mark, and it won’t be a game that years later is still remembered as being special. Seems like a lot of hassle when you’ve already got a near perfect template to work with :wink:


(BioSnark) #2

Doubt this forum will have much interesting discussion on the topic since they’ll mainly agree with your premise. However, you actually want discussion? Allow me to DA.

Seems like a lot of hassle when you’ve already got a near perfect template to work with
Near perfect template? ET weapons were more than slightly ridiculous. Having two people circling each other holding lmb over each other’s heads is cause for some ridicule. I haven’t even played a CoD since allied assault but ET is at least as ridiculous as the CoD you describe. The bullet sponge nature of it makes weapons feel like characterless pea shooters. Add to that the fact that people here are knee jerk against recoil and you have gameplay without aesthetic or visceral feeling. How did an arcade shooter full of fully automatic hitscan and virtually without projectile weapons ever get a playerbase willing to accept it? Probably because it was free. Enjoy.


(tokamak) #3

What Biosnark said.


(nh0j) #4

I agree, iron sights are bad but I do think you could zoom in with the mp40 in RtCW but it wasn’t looking down the iron sight. Something like this is fine as it doesn’t affect the overall speed of the game.

I also agree with the guns in ETQW feeling weak, I can’t comment on W:ET but I never felt any of the fire fights were as exciting as they were in RtCW.


(tokamak) #5

ETQW guns were perfect. They were exactly the right kind of toys to have fun arcade-ish action while keeping strategy valuable.


(Apples) #6

God knows I love fast paced games, and also that I’m usually all in for a “don’t fix what isnt broken” kind of philosophy, but copying / pasting quake3 in 2012 is just a no-go…

Guns in ETQW might need some changes I agree, but when you learned how to use them I wont qualify them as “weak” and the ironsights provided a good balance between hipfire and crouch/ironsight = better aim thing.

There are plenty of stuffs I’m really against in modern shooters, ironsights ain’t one.


(INF3RN0) #7

As long as iron sights are only viable at very long distances they aren’t too bad. Someone strafing with hipfire should always prevail over a slow moving iron sighted player at close range.


(DarkKnightDK) #8

Iron sights have its pros and cons…But still…great addition thou haha


(Senethro) #9

What biosnark said but I’m wearing hipster glasses when I say it.


(kilL_888) #10

i vote no.


(Kendle) #11

+1 for Biosnark, plus as has been mentioned elsewhere, RTCW and ET both have a “push button to stop and modify accuracy” feature, it’s called “crouching”. Ironsights are the same thing. Adding them won’t slow the game down or unbalance it anymore than crouching does if done properly.


(DarkangelUK) #12

As long as the hip fire accuracy isn’t silly then totally. RTCW had quite a tight spread and I generally only crouched when shooting from a distance… that’s how it should be with IS as well and I’d be happy to have them if they were like that.


(kilL_888) #13

crouch and a zoom/fov reduction are 2 completely seperate things. did counter strike change their “accuracy feature” for instance? nope, they sticked to their established model. that’s what fans grew up with. splash damage fans probably prefer the classic model splash damage’s first game offered. that game is the reason we are splash damage fans in the first place.

bottom line is, ironsight and no ironsight are 2 completely different gameplay styles. i personally prefer the no ironsight style. it’s more movement centric, it doesn’t restrict my view, it promotes a more oldschool style of play.


(DarkangelUK) #14

I have to admit, kilL_888 has a point. Crouching and ADS are 2 different ways of achieving the same goal but both have different effects on the player as they use them.


(tokamak) #15

[QUOTE=kilL_888;412983]splash damage fans probably prefer the classic model splash damage’s first game offered. that game is the reason we are splash damage fans in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

Except for when they find the second model far superior and way more fun.


(warbie) #16

It depends on what want from a shooter. I’m with kill_888 and like them based around fluid and fast movement.


(Apples) #17

As long as its fun its ok, If I want fluid I go Q3A or Qlive…

Well I’m a bit harsh there but as long as I want a good core, I dont want a game from the 90’s… Nostalgia has its limits


(warbie) #18

Just out of interest then - what current games with iron sights do you guys think have improved on the 90s formula?

I’m not on a nostalgia trip btw - I honestly find games like Bf3, CoD: MW etc to be more basic and with less depth in pretty much every regard compared to RTCW and ET.


(Apples) #19

Etqw got IS pretty much nailed, but people didnt love it because they couldnt stand vehicles, and I agree that the netcode is pretty bad. SoF2 without all the xtreme damage was good also, but it was more zoom than ironsight, the BF series when played properly with a good team is pretty much as deep as ET to me, CoD after the 2 became bad IMO. Its pretty hard to find an entertaining fps these day and I’ll agree with that, but if you get past the vehicles syndrom, try etqw and tell me if IS wasnt balanced in this game.


(warbie) #20

I did try to get into Quake Wars - after years and years of RTCW and ET it was the logical step - but just couldn’t get into it. Aside from vehicles, I couldn’t get beyond the feel of the engine. There was something very weird about id tech 4.