Iron Sight - What is it there for?

[Tast1c]

what is a function/feature of a game, which gives you no benefit?

It leads to this questions:

-> Am I doing something wrong?

-> Why is it there?

would be cool, weapons without IS a player knows he can ads when there is an sight to look through, simple as that.

I would only like ADS on

• sniper and semi-fire rifles (scopes 2x-7x or simple fov zoom) -> all weapons with high dmg output per bullet -> highest kill distances[/li][li]mg -> not really a portable weapon for fast engagements

assault rifle, shotgun, pistols smg dont need a “scope” -> fast combat

do it^^

this dude pretty much says it

OR replace ADS with positioning your gun a bit more to your shoulder without having ironsight in your face blocking your sight + simple zoom -> middle way

[BomBaKlaK]

[QUOTE=Tast1c;447458]what is a function/feature of a game, which gives you no benefit?

It leads to this questions:

-> Am I doing something wrong?

-> Why is it there?

would be cool, weapons without IS a player knows he can ads when there is an sight to look through, simple as that.

I would only like ADS on

• sniper and semi-fire rifles (scopes 2x-7x or simple fov zoom) -> all weapons with high dmg output per bullet -> highest kill distances[/li][li]mg -> not really a portable weapon for fast engagements

assault rifle, shotgun, pistols smg dont need a “scope” -> fast combat

do it^^

this dude pretty much says it

OR replace ADS with positioning your gun a bit more to your shoulder without having ironsight in your face blocking your sight + simple zoom -> middle way[/QUOTE]

if you remove IS it’s got to be that way !
and remove the possibility to change the fov with a bind to be fair enough with everyone.

[Wezelkrozum]

The reasoning behind the suggestion to remove IS where it is not appropriate, is that new players coming from ‘other’ games may assume it is the optimal way to play, and get frustrated quickly because they don’t realise that in many cases, hip fire > ADS. Disabling IS for many weapons might be a more intuitive way to teach people how to play DB.

I have to admit that in spite of playing W:ET for over 5 years I thought the IS is better except for close ranged combat. Last week I discovered this isn’t the case and since then I’ve enjoyed and played DB a lot more!

[INF3RN0]

ETQW iron sights work very well in terms of distancing if an example is needed.

[mfzor]

I quite like the ETQW iron sight which was really just an decrease in fov / zoom in button when using r_drawgun 0. The main difficulty I experience with iron sight in this game is it is literally too blinding for the speed of the game.

I don’t mind it, but it just needs a place / reason to use. At the moment their is absolutely no reason to not just shoot off the hip as it is just as accurate but you don’t loose movement speed.

/edit Just watched an ETQW frag video

The off hip seems alot less accurate at med-long range, but devestating at close range. Also the slower RoF meant it was more about consistant headshot tracking aim rather then pelting their body with mass bullets. ADS was used every time in med/long range as the gun fell off in effectiveness at med-long range quite hard.

[BomBaKlaK]

ETQW was much bigger in term of scale, there is longer distance to cover.

[Protekt1]

[QUOTE=Tast1c;447458]what is a function/feature of a game, which gives you no benefit?

It leads to this questions:

-> Am I doing something wrong?

-> Why is it there?

would be cool, weapons without IS a player knows he can ads when there is an sight to look through, simple as that.

I would only like ADS on

• sniper and semi-fire rifles (scopes 2x-7x or simple fov zoom) -> all weapons with high dmg output per bullet -> highest kill distances[/li][li]mg -> not really a portable weapon for fast engagements

assault rifle, shotgun, pistols smg dont need a “scope” -> fast combat

do it^^

this dude pretty much says it

OR replace ADS with positioning your gun a bit more to your shoulder without having ironsight in your face blocking your sight + simple zoom -> middle way[/QUOTE]

Ironsights do add a big benefit. Its enjoyable and lots of people like it. The problem in most games like COD is that its too powerful compared to hipfire at medium ranges making the game much slower at almost every range since you’re forced to ADS or die instantly.

I think not having iron sights in the game is a big misstep for capturing a large segment of FPSers that love ironsights. And since hipfire is on par if not better than ADS in most situations, there is no reason to remove it.

I kinda feel like if people just said that they don’t like IS and don’t want to see IS, that’d make a whole lot more sense than anything I’ve read

[tokamak]

+1 Protekt1 you put it really well.

ETQW had it perfect. And not just for the long distance stuff. Iron Sights where also great for holding down a position, for taking control of bottlenecks and generally just building the advantage that comes with getting the drop on someone.

How would people feel if we removed the ability to IS with all weapons, and kept ADS only for weapons equipped with red dot/scope etc?

You wouldn’t see me here again.

[Patriotqube]

[QUOTE=Jonny_Hex;447423]How would people feel if we removed the ability to IS with all weapons, and kept ADS only for weapons equipped with red dot/scope etc?

/discuss

J.[/QUOTE]

That would be absolutely great imho.

But it should be compensated with making the weapons more accurate.
as it is now IS makes me feel abit trapped, everything is slow when its on.

[warbie]

ETQW had it perfect. And not just for the long distance stuff. Iron Sights where also great for holding down a position, for taking control of bottlenecks and generally just building the advantage that comes with getting the drop on someone.

Not sure I get that. How do ironsights benefit holding a bottleneck or give an advantage when getting the drop on someone?

[Kl3ppy]

I like the IS in ETQW. I would love to see IS in DB. There are enough places in DB right now where it is usefull.

But if there are no IS, then restrict the FoV Change as BomBaKlaK said. Because when you dont want IS but change the FoV instead then you can take the IS. Also it would be nice, if there will be a setting to hide the gun.

[tokamak]

Not sure I get that. How do ironsights benefit holding a bottleneck or give an advantage when getting the drop on someone?

If you want to hold a position then you don’t need to move or cover multiple angles. Ironsights mean you can trade the mobility (which you don’t need anyway) for increased shooting power. That means you, as a static defender can have a considerable advantage over new entrants who still need to move and look around.

This isn’t just defender vs attacker though. If attackers have secured the point where they chose to attack from then the attacker as well can afford to approach a situation while sighted and thus enjoy the same advantage.

That’s what made sights in ETQW so valuable. They were a tactical advantage only offered to players or groups of players who firmly controlled a situation allowing them to exert even more control.

That entire premise is what made ETQW so fun in the first place. Supply crates, deployables, mines and vehicles all contributed to a player building their control of an area they valued. That allowed both teams to engage in a scenario they build themselves.

DB doesn’t have this at all. It’s a fast-paced and lethal version of brink where just two teams keep grinding into each other based on conditions that were already baked into the maps by the developers. Playing DB feels like being a puppet on strings while playing ETQW feels like playing in a sandbox with the coolest toys.

Here’s a visualisation of how DB feels right now:

[Tast1c]

ADS was cool in operation flashpoint back then. In all shooter games you got useless hipfire.

The only reason to buff ADS -> higher ttk

[tokamak]

Operation Flashpoint also had ironsights though. And some weird hybrid between zooming and hipfire.

Also the right way to fix ironsight is not to make the switching faster. If anything the switching can be slower so it becomes a more conscious decision to sight. In return there should be a drastic recoil reduction as well.

[warbie]

It’s interesting the things different people appreciate in the same games. I really tried to get on with ET:QW, but too much of what I loved about RTCW/ET was missing/diluted and the additions - particularly vehicles and deployables - did nothing interesting and infact detracted game/team play wise for me. It’s no wonder we want almost completely different things for DB! (I can’t think of anything that would do more harm to the type of game I want than smoke grenades, for example!)

That means you, as a static defender can have a considerable advantage over new entrants who still need to move and look around

In ET and RTCW there was never an advantage in being static. You may stop and crouch fire for a sec, two at most, but the hip firing accuracy was such that any longer was death and even when defending a bottleneck from a set position you were always on your toes. Perhaps staying within a few square meters, but never still when defending a push. This is how I like it - in terms of interesting gameplay and excitement - and wouldn’t want a game that gave an advantage by staying still and peering down a gun sight simply because it doesn’t add anything and for it to be effective I wouldn’t like the design choices that got it to that point.

Staying with bottlenecks/area control - already there’s an advantage for the defender. You know which gap/s the other team are pushing through - why do we need an additional ‘tactical’ advantage? A bigger current issue is that DB hasn’t fully embraced or fully understood the attack/defend bottlnecks that made RTCW and ET work and that more than anything now it’s the maps that are letting the game down

[tokamak]

The advantage is bloody insufficient because BOTH teams keep lemming in into each other. Even TF2 has more depth than DB right now. The maps aren’t even the problem. It’s the constant hipfire dancing that makes the geometry a lower factor in any fight. You can put two hipfiring players into any situation and it will just play out the same.

And in regard to W:ET, you’re forgetting prone which offered considerable advantage to snipers and the MG, I used both a lot in W:ET. But DB doesn’t even have that.

[warbie]

Prone was nearly never used in ET - perhaps when dicking about on public servers or for novelty value, but, like with being static, usually resulted in a quick death and huge advantage for the other player. And I disagree - the maps are a big problem. Both RTCW and ET had faster hipfire dancing gameplay and neither provided the same meat grinder experience as DB. DB has taken the nice open arena-like maps we had in RTCW/ET and codified them. Narrow corridors, few open spaces, too many places to hide and too many side routes …

[tokamak]

Even Camden is a grinder and Camden has a geometrical structure very similar to the average W:ET map. This game needs stance diversity and it needs it badly. Improved sights, prone and lean. They won’t change the hipfire dueling but it will allow players to grab control of a position when the opportunity lends itself for it.

[warbie]

Even Camden is a grinder and Camden has a geometrical structure very similar to the average W:ET map. This game needs stance diversity and it needs it badly. Improved sights, prone and lean. They won’t change the hipfire dueling but it will allow players to grab control of a position when the opportunity lends itself for it.

I don’t consider Camden to be similar to ET maps. More ET-like than the other DB maps, sure, but not what I want.

However you cut it, unless movement speed and hipfiring accuracy are nerfed to silly levels, iron sights will never be useful in anything other than the most situational situations. I’m ok with near useless ironsights - don’t see the point in an optional bind, but whatever the ppl want. Prone is a no no for me and think would be even less suited to DB than it was unsuited to ET. Out of interest - do you want DB to play anything like ET? I get the impression you want a much slower, tactical game with oodles of gadgets. Smoke bombs, infrared goggles, caltrops etc etc.

[Hyperg]

I really don’t get the fuss around IS tbh. If anything it’s a system that alleviates the change of pace from anything BF3/Cod to the hipfire madness. It’s not there to make you feel awkward in combat, it just helps players that are more accustomed to that style of shooting to fall into the DB playstyle faster when noticing they can drop from ADS way more often than in the games they’re coming from.

You don’t have to walk with ADS (you could, but you could also prone your way from allied spawn through tunnel into fuel dump…) and let’s be freaking honest, IS is not the pacing showstopper for DB, come on. I for one feel more comfortable to have it “there”, even if it’s for the most situational situation. Maybe it puts less strain on my eyes if I can get that little zoom in to steady my aim a bit, dunno. It will take some time and tweaks to provide a solid fuse of the both worlds (even if it clearly leans to the hipfire shooting right now) and I think there’s a decent amount of feedback as to where it needs to go, given it’s like the 4th thread (or the 4th that I’m posting on) about IS and how “game changing” it feels.