Instagibs - Sniper Rifles & Explosives

(Chase) #141

[quote=“FireWorks;94574”]This gibbed-over-time idea and the charge-up are both pretty weird. I mean we already discusse charge being broken for Sparks, dont know if it helps on Vassili.

I really dont like this Damage-over-Time becoming a thing on Vassili, but I think it would be the solution for Sparks revives: Make her revive a Heal-over-Time so people dont get instarevived with full health and spawn protection.[/quote]

@FireWorks, well mate we all find new things weird at first but look at the problems that the bleed effect solves. Isn’t that a great compromise between both sides?

(AirborneVolley) #142

I think the amount of health of a downed body is calculated like this. Half of the merc his / her max hp - the amount of overkill you did with your gun. If you would kill a fragger that has 150 hp and for example kill him with your smg, causing 14 dmg of overkill, his downed body will have 75-14=61hp. However knifing them will cause them to be instantly finished.

(fubar) #143

[quote=“Demolama;94474”]W:ET nades and mines did 250 damage, which did not insta-gib anyone who had obtained a certain level and that game also had full health reviving medics. To think that nades have to insta-gib to be effective against full health reviving medics is very myopic.

[/quote]

Yeah, but… ETPro and OSP are played competitively for a reason. There are no level rewards, no ranks, nothing. Nades do instagib. Mines do instagib. Everyone has a nade, some up to 4(8 in rtcw). Rifles can instagib, Panzer can instagib, airstrikes and artillery instagibs, dynamites instagib. Every explosive in the game has the chance to instagib. And with that, no, no full health reviving medics either.

Snipers, however, don’t.

[quote=“Glottis-3D;94546”][quote=“Ardez;94374”]@Pecka Mr.Dubstab is right in that @fubar doesn’t speak for every competitive player. They may have a fairly similar way of thought, but that is partly because Subreddits tends to have a mob mentality.

And competitive isn’t just tournament competitive. It is also high level ranked.

Point is, everybody has their opinions and we need to respect each others opinions. If you have a disagreement with another player then discuss your difference of opinion.

However, each person should speak to their own opinion and not claim to hold the opinion of an entire group of players. I take what fubar says as his own beliefs and don’t presume that he would speak for everybody or even the entire competitive community.

I speak for all of the pubbers who eat nutella and banana sandwiches. They should make it so pistols insta-gib on headshots.

That statement doesn’t make my point more valid or less valid. It is in fact irrelevant to the rest of that quote. Even if I wasn’t outright lying about who I represented it doesn’t mean what I say is accepted by all of them or that it is a good idea.

So argue positions, not people. Please.[/quote]

fubar being one of the most detailed and well-reasoned feedbackers on SD forums for years. so he does represent a lot of thoughts of the competitive majority, but ofc he shouldnt have said, that he speaks for entire community, even if he does =)[/quote]

I, nor the OP, ever implied I speak for the entire community. He implied to speak for almost the entire COMPETITIVE community, which, if you looked around is a fair statement to make. Every top team, present and past, every mid tier team, every “high ranked MM player”, have time and time again pushed for this to happen. Reddit, splashdamage forums, dev streams, irc have logs upon logs of us crying for this change. In no way does this mean I speak for every single person that plays this game competitively, I have never made that statement, nor do I dare to; but the vast majority of known players - have repeatedly presented their opinion on the matter.

And I’m sorry, but… matchmaking is NOT competitive, not even remotely, please don’t make the comparison of playing a public server to playing this game in a competitive environment.

(VincentRJaeger) #144

I’m primarily a Vassili player and I have to say, I welcome the removal of instagib on rifles with open arms! Now if you could just tweak the FEL-IX to be more of a unique rifle than a worse Moa then that would be perfect!

I’m not completely sold on removing instagib on explosives though. If anything - save for perhaps fraggers nades - you have the ability to ditch the area from incoming airstrikes or explosives. If you’re not paying attention to what’s going on you’re kind of going to have to deal with the consequences if you ask me.

(riptide) #145

Air, orbital and artillery strikes would still gib under the proposed system. All of those hit multiple times which would be overkill in most cases. (arty’s being the least likely to gib)

(FireWorks) #146

[quote=“Chase;94631”][quote=“FireWorks;94574”]This gibbed-over-time idea and the charge-up are both pretty weird. I mean we already discusse charge being broken for Sparks, dont know if it helps on Vassili.

I really dont like this Damage-over-Time becoming a thing on Vassili, but I think it would be the solution for Sparks revives: Make her revive a Heal-over-Time so people dont get instarevived with full health and spawn protection.[/quote]

@FireWorks, well mate we all find new things weird at first but look at the problems that the bleed effect solves. Isn’t that a great compromise between both sides?

[quote=“Chase;94548”]

With the combination of the Dev’s suggested nerf and the bleed effect,

  • Vassili will no longer have insta-gibs so players will no longer be as frustrated as before.
  • Medic revives will still be viable, allowing teams that work well together to still have the ability to make a comeback push.
  • Vassili headshots will still be rewarding as medics will have to make sure they revive the bleeding players before they are “gibbed”.
  • Situations such as:
    Getting a headshot on a player at 20 seconds on the spawn timer only to be revived by a medic that just got to the battlefield from spawn will be prevented.
  • Medic revives will not be as op as it potentially can be.

[/quote][/quote]

Well, I hate dying from bleeding out in other games. Way worse than any instagib headshot from a vassili could do. I dont think this will change in a gib mechanic. There will be enough instances where you can cuss at your teammates for not doing things in time…

I dont get why the working core of the health mechanic of all 4 SD titles has to go and be changed for a potentially more frustrating mechanic I already hate in other games. But thats a personal thing.

You even argue about people not having long spawn… Its the only point of this game to send players to the spawn Q to make sure you can do the objective. The longer, the better, hence comp teams timing their pushes.

The instagibs are a counter to the endless medic trains we knew from older games. I dont miss them too much and welcomed the change. Getting 10kills from 4 players only to run out ammo and still lose was not exactly great.

(VincentRJaeger) #147

Air, orbital and artillery strikes would still gib under the proposed system. All of those hit multiple times which would be overkill in most cases. (arty’s being the least likely to gib)[/quote]

Ah, alright, then I’m quite satisfied with those changes!

(Demolama) #148

[quote=“fubar;94650”][quote=“Demolama;94474”]W:ET nades and mines did 250 damage, which did not insta-gib anyone who had obtained a certain level and that game also had full health reviving medics. To think that nades have to insta-gib to be effective against full health reviving medics is very myopic.

[/quote]

Yeah, but… ETPro and OSP are played competitively for a reason. There are no level rewards, no ranks, nothing. Nades do instagib. Mines do instagib. Everyone has a nade, some up to 4(8 in rtcw). Rifles can instagib, Panzer can instagib, airstrikes and artillery instagibs, dynamites instagib. Every explosive in the game has the chance to instagib. And with that, no, no full health reviving medics either.

Snipers, however, don’t.
[/quote]

Sure, I get that. But W:ET competitions also ran larger than 5v5 matches-- 7v7 was usually the norm. Those 2 extra players made a huge difference in a game where a single insta-gib nade did not always destroy an offensive push. Other than mines, which were limited in number in comps, all small damage insta-gib weapons, such as grenades, required ammo to use again.

You mentioned RTCW, the only insta-gib weapons in RTCW were Artillery, Airstrikes, Panzers, and Dynamite. In that game no one got insta-gibbed by nades. But true there were no full health reviving medics.

And let’s not forget that most W:ET comp maps were also much larger with other means of attack, and contained other punishing features for defensive wipes such as longer respawn times than the offense. Unfortunately unless SD does a major overhaul on the current set of maps, which I highly doubt due to the amount of man-hours it would take away, a single nade gib can and often does devastate a lot of offensive pushes in Dirty Bomb. This is just one element of that meat-grinding feeling that players often complain about, especially if almost every offensive push is halted by 2 members of the opposing team playing mercs that have insta-gib weapons (if the current meta remains an assorted combo of either Fragger, Vas, or Sky).

I’m not saying that all insta-gib weapons should be removed from Dirty Bomb,I just do not like the fact that currently any weapon that damages a player max_health +1 bypasses their gib health pool and is rewarded an insta-gib, especially with weapons that should not be on the same level as some of the larger damage dealing weapons. Because I do see a difference between big explosive weapons and smaller ones. Nades cannot one or two shot an EV. Thus, nades and mines should not have the same potential damage output as airstrikes, artillery, Kira’s lazer, or Javelin’s rocket (if she is released). Currently, a well timed nade can insta-gib 2 or 3 and be ready to do it again before the next respawn because of the 17 second refill. While his nades should be able to perhaps insta-kill 2,3,4,or 5 players he should not be a light version of Skyhammer with more health that can’t give ammo.

(3N1GM4) #149

I feel a fair compromise to the bolt action insta-gib is a secondary T hit box on the head. (https://readmylipstickdotme.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/face-final-800.jpg) Any hits in the T area is an insta-gib and all others are just an instant down. This would have minimal effect to pub games and reward skill in comp games.

I have no problem with insta-gibing from explosives though I find the frag nade a BIT op. Not incredibly OP but maybe 90-95% might be better.

(Faraleth) #150

[quote=“3N1GM4;94801”]I feel a fair compromise to the bolt action insta-gib is a secondary T hit box on the head. (https://readmylipstickdotme.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/face-final-800.jpg) Any hits in the T area is an insta-gib and all others are just an instant down. This would have minimal effect to pub games and reward skill in comp games.

I have no problem with insta-gibing from explosives though I find the frag nade a BIT op. Not incredibly OP but maybe 90-95% might be better.
[/quote]

@3N1GM4 Problem is, with things like this, you kinda have to make from the start. They would have to go back and change a bunch of hit boxes with the models and add additional fields, and it would be a lot of work. Not saying it’s not doable, but it’s the kinda thing that has to be implemented earlier, rather than later. xD

(_retired_) #151

After instagib issue you should look into Sparks reviving.

it is just ridiculous. You cannot basically gib people since they are up before you can do anything and you are fighting like army of zombies instead which have to killed twice to stop them.

(3N1GM4) #152

[quote=“Faraleth;94803”][quote=“3N1GM4;94801”]I feel a fair compromise to the bolt action insta-gib is a secondary T hit box on the head. (https://readmylipstickdotme.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/face-final-800.jpg) Any hits in the T area is an insta-gib and all others are just an instant down. This would have minimal effect to pub games and reward skill in comp games.

I have no problem with insta-gibing from explosives though I find the frag nade a BIT op. Not incredibly OP but maybe 90-95% might be better.
[/quote]

@3N1GM4 Problem is, with things like this, you kinda have to make from the start. They would have to go back and change a bunch of hit boxes with the models and add additional fields, and it would be a lot of work. Not saying it’s not doable, but it’s the kinda thing that has to be implemented earlier, rather than later. xD[/quote]

@Faraleth While I can appreciate the magnitude of such a change, clearly this is a rather large and game altering mechanic. As such, we(the community) / they (the developers) shouldn’t make the decision based on how easy it is for the developers to implement. The game is still in beta, which is when large changes should be made.

I, myself, am a developer, not a game developer but none the less, I know the pain of last minute major changes that require complete reworks. I also know that there is generally a legitimate reason for the changes.

I’m not saying my suggestion is the only or best solution, but just throwing it into the discussion. I believe an equally sufficient solution (I believe people were referencing ET) would be the insta-gib on only weakened or the weakest mercs. say, if your HP is 75 or below its an insta-gib, if not then just insta-down.

(Grave_Knight) #153

[quote=“crabbyDimension;94805”]After instagib issue you should look into Sparks reviving.

it is just ridiculous. You cannot basically gib people since they are up before you can do anything and you are fighting like army of zombies instead which have to killed twice to stop them.[/quote]
There is a one second delay between being downed and revived. It is possible to gib someone in that time.

(_retired_) #154

[quote=“Grave Knight;94873”]There is a one second delay between being downed and revived. It is possible to gib someone in that time. .[/quote]Nope, it isn’t. It’s still BS. Maybe you haven’t played against competent Sparks who has his reviver pointed and charged towards his mates before they go down.
We aren’t talking about just ranged revives, we’re talking like instarevives that compared to other medics is just laughable. With those there at least there’s time to do something to downed merc. It gets worse if there are more than one downed. So basically you get punished by downing two guys since you have just time to gib one and then get killed by another who just pops up instantly.

It just doesn’t make sense. Period.

(pumpkinmeerkat) #155

Wouldn’t reducing the ROF on the bolt actions accomplish the same thing as removing instagib and adding one shot gib to downed enemies? Requiring bolt actions to unscope between shots could help balance as well.

I definitely don’t play anywhere near competitive level but I do enjoy watching competitive sniper gameplay. Hopefully this change won’t completely remove sniping from competitive DB.

(FireWorks) #156

[quote=“Grave Knight;94873”][quote=“crabbyDimension;94805”]After instagib issue you should look into Sparks reviving.

it is just ridiculous. You cannot basically gib people since they are up before you can do anything and you are fighting like army of zombies instead which have to killed twice to stop them.[/quote]
There is a one second delay between being downed and revived. It is possible to gib someone in that time.[/quote]

Well, technically you are correct, but in fact it is very very short. If you face the mentioned competent Spark, you got no time to do the gib with bullets cause before the body even drops on the floor, it is already revived - with full health. Ok, its kinda nice to slaughter two full spawnwaves as Fragger and just being instarevived over and over in the process, but it also feels very bad being on the receiving end. The mechanic is currently pretty broken.

[quote=“crabbyDimension;94875”][quote=“Grave Knight;94873”]There is a one second delay between being downed and revived. It is possible to gib someone in that time. .[/quote]Nope, it isn’t. It’s still BS. Maybe you haven’t played against competent Sparks who has his reviver pointed and charged towards his mates before they go down.
We aren’t talking about just ranged revives, we’re talking like instarevives that compared to other medics is just laughable. With those there at least there’s time to do something to downed merc. It gets worse if there are more than one downed. So basically you get punished by downing two guys since you have just time to gib one and then get killed by another who just pops up instantly.

It just doesn’t make sense. Period.
[/quote]

I brought this up in the SD forums but here are some ideas so far for the Sparks change:

Either extend the standing up time until the Spawnprotection kicks by a couple more .1 secs. To actually allow to gib in this time.

Or just rework the sparks revive to a ~40% instaheal and then let the rest come as a heal over time. Similar to the Sawbones med pack. Facing these full health zombies is borked.

(3N1GM4) #157

Or remove the protection that a revived player has as they stand up, nothing like wasting a clip on an enemy trying to gib them or as they’re being revived and doing no damage at all and being gibbed by the guy.

I believe thats a fair trade off for being able to insta-revive teammates from “miles away” with a full charge. And if the team mate doesn’t drop, she can just pop an enemies head with the charge…

Other medics with the paddles can’t sit back with a full charge and tag a team mate instantly when they drop, they would have to in combat with the team mate to insta-revive them which also removes their offensiveness for a split second opening them up to hits, and even then it’s still not a 100% revive.

Another option for the revives, going back to the two pools of HP each player has:
I think it would make sense if the revive gun gives say “150 hp” at max. This HP would be first applied to the gib pool and the overflow would be the health the player recieves when they stand up. (with a minimum of say 40)

This way if you’re one shot away from gibbing the downed merc, you’re rewarded by them not popping up with 100% hp AND a shield. This also rewards a good Sparks with timely revives.

This doesn’t really address the insta-revives though, so I still feel a reduction of the shield would be appropriate.

Or how about removing the ability to hold a full charge, as soon as the gun hits 100% it fires. No more waiting for people to drop with a full charge, use or lose it.

People hate the idea of a TFC/TF2 style charge up mechanism on snipers, but have no problem with it on a the revivr? which is effectively a sniper rifle that kills and revives?!?

Or reducing the range on the revivr / reducing its effectiveness at distance.

< 50ft 100%
50 - 100ft 75%
100-150ft 50%

150ft 25%

(mercifulGrape) #158

I would say just changing downed health to a secondary health bar should be sufficient, as in it regenerates overtime not being downed starting from 25% of remaining inner hp, then regenerating at a rate ~8hp per second starting 3 secs after respawn (in this time they shouldn’t be able to heal regardless of inner or outer) , so any follow up will likely cause instant gibbing.

(Gildoania) #159

game is dying, does not matter

(Grave_Knight) #160

Okay, Mr 3 posts who is obviously salty because his little video was removed.