Instagibs - Sniper Rifles & Explosives

(watsyurdeal) #121

[quote=“adeto;94377”][quote=“Ardez;94374”]@Pecka Mr.Dubstab is right in that @fubar doesn’t speak for every competitive player. They may have a fairly similar way of thought, but that is partly because Subreddits tends to have a mob mentality.

And competitive isn’t just tournament competitive. It is also high level ranked.

Point is, everybody has their opinions and we need to respect each others opinions. If you have a disagreement with another player then discuss your difference of opinion.

However, each person should speak to their own opinion and not claim to hold the opinion of an entire group of players. I take what fubar says as his own beliefs and don’t presume that he would speak for everybody or even the entire competitive community.

I speak for all of the pubbers who eat nutella and banana sandwiches. They should make it so pistols insta-gib on headshots.

That statement doesn’t make my point more valid or less valid. It is in fact irrelevant to the rest of that quote. Even if I wasn’t outright lying about who I represented it doesn’t mean what I say is accepted by all of them or that it is a good idea.

So argue positions, not people. Please.[/quote]

Thing is though, if you keep looking at every opinion individually you will literally never get to a point to make a decision. @fubar is a good example of where the competitive community(atleast tournament and higher ranked MM players) agree with a big majority and have agreed for near half a year already on it. We even set up a competitive ‘input-group’ with selected players from the competitive scene to show that the suggest changes came from a group opposed to single opinions but that didn’t seem to matter either… It’s pretty frustrating that there it doesn’t matter which bend the competitive community lays itself in to get feedback across yet there is always some excuse as to why it’s ignored/disregarded. [/quote]

I have to agree to an extent

While I agree pub players and those who do not participate in the competitive scene have the right to make their voice heard. A lot of times there is a big distinct difference between how the game is played in those environments,

Perfect example, 8v8 Objective, and 5v5 tournaments. Smaller player count, merc limits, everyone has a mic, etc.

While I do think pubbers have some leeway they are often uneducated about how the game actually works, and base their opinions around a lack of skill or challenge, whereas their ideas would be terrible where those things aren’t as much of a factor.

(FireWorks) #122

[quote=“adeto;94355”]Personally I am happy that after 6 months of the same complaints SD finally seems to be willing to at-least look at the instagib situation or atleast show that they are looking at it…

But here it comes, I think the proposed(tested) changes to me just feel like overcompensating instead of actually addressing the problem. I really don’t think instagibs themselves are an issue at all as long as they are limited in usage and don’t feel random. I think the majority of players feels that Vassili is the only merc where the instagib is actually an issue. All other mercs have way less impact because their instagibs are controlled by cooldowns. There are many ways to fix this issue by a lot of different things and the proposed change from SD for snipers instagibs isn’t a bad one, but why are we also applying this to explosives? This change literally feels like the half assed gibbing vs revive changes they made just because of Sparks being introduced instead of balancing Sparks(resulting in her still being unbalanced compared to other medics). Now they are changing instagibs across the board instead of balancing Vassili’s access to instagibs. The problem isn’t avoided, but it feels like there is a just misunderstanding on what the actual problems are at SD when it comes to some of these gameplay changes.

I’m the kind of player that deals with most things thrown at him, but the few issues I feel the game has when it comes to gameplay balance SD seems to completely miss the point. And when they finally agree that there is an issue it seems to get overcompensated massively.[/quote]

I agree with your point, but I think SD is trying to address 2 things at a time:
-The sniper instagib critics
-The fragger nade critics

both are issues raised a lot by the veterans for a long time, as you mentioned.

If I get you right, Id agree and would like to see a sequential patching of each issue instead of this combo patch they seem to test. And for the sniper stage of patching I strongly plea for a sharp look at the sparks revive and damage mechanics.

(Grave_Knight) #123

Spinning corpses? Do you mean where they guy is down but doesn’t go down immediately and just kind of slumps down after a second or so?

(Amerika) #124

Considering Shoe mentioned that follow-up gibbing would also probably change with the bolt actions (not the PDP I would assume) where it would take simply 1 shot anywhere on the body your concern is a non-issue. Assuming they go that route.

But yeah, I’d like the body spinning fixed too. At least it’s not as bad as it used to be and is now a lot more predictable and less chaotic.

(farmakoxeris.exe) #125

well if this happens it will destroy the game. don’t make the game more easy! learn to play and ‘‘avoid’’ to get instagibed

(_retired_) #126

Something that has crossed my mind in the past is that I have always wondered why you can revive person as long as he isn’t gibbed.

If there would be gib counter separate from spawn timer which would be affected by the extra damage taken by the merc in death/after death. Then example Vassili headshots with bolt action would cause so much damage that gib counter would have just few seconds to revive the victim. However it doesn’t solve the Sparks issue really since his revives are almost like instant while already being from safe place.
Originally I thought gib counter as solution to martyrdom since people complained it.

That way also gibbing downed merc would be less important if medics aren’t close by.

(Grave_Knight) #127

[quote=“crabbyDimension;94408”]Something that has crossed my mind in the past is that I have always wondered why you can revive person as long as he isn’t gibbed.

If there would be gib counter separate from spawn timer which would be affected by the extra damage taken by the merc in death/after death. Then example Vassili headshots with bolt action would cause so much damage that gib counter would have just few seconds to revive the victim. However it doesn’t solve the Sparks issue really since his revives are almost like instant while already being from safe place.
Originally I thought gib counter as solution to martyrdom since people complained it.

That way also gibbing downed merc would be less important if medics aren’t close by.[/quote]
The problem with that is than you only have a few seconds to revive the medic making it difficult if not impossible for non-medics to revive them. This causes the medics to be less aggressive, even when trying to revive, and brings more focus on Sparks since she can revive without putting herself too much at risk. This would just serve to slow down the game play.

(GodsMistake) #128

I do not agree with those changes at all. Most games have a reward for snipers for a headshot: instant kill and gib. Explosives: if youre that close to an explosive, then you should wait it out until the respawn. When Splash Damage released Enemy Territory, it was the same thing and nobody complained then.

My biggest concern is that everyone wants to nerf the game so much that its not a competitive fps game any more, but an FPS with training wheels. 98% of the other deaths you experience in this game give you the opportunity to be revived. This game has some of its lineage in RTCW and Enemy Territory and both of those came out way before COD, so comparisons are silly. I love the Quake 3 based games because they focus on skill and are very fast paced (except the original COD, et al–but they were trying to achieve something different).

Im surprised that people complain about instagib with a sniper rifle. Well, go after the sniper before he gets you. Lets not dumb down the game because apparently grabbing a BR and triple headshotting a sniper across the map is too much to deal with–that is the whole point of a competitive game. You have challenges you have to overcome–or you lose, period. If you’re used to camping corners and back raging people, i can see the challenge there. But I think it is silly to remove those two features just because a vocal minority happen to dislike it.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but I usually get instagibbed, i remember where the sniper was, and then he’s mine. Problem solved because 95% stay in the same spot. I want this game to be challenging and competitive. So think changes through before making them.

(avidCow) #129

[quote=“B. Montiel;94190”]You’re quite on the spot. And to be honest, the only good recon ability currently is the heartbeat sensor. If I wanna use semi-auto sniper rifles, I’d probably choose a Vassili PDP loadout.

Nevertheless, I’m still thinking that Red-eye is underused mainly because Sparks does the same job better. Ok, you lose 40 hp between the two, but who care about infra-red goggles and human exhaust cloud when you can have revive from distance and one hit to kill on more mercs on the other side ?
[/quote]

Completely agree. Also, in a game of peek-a-boo Sparks effective health is much higher than 80hp.

(Grave_Knight) #130

@"[L] GodsMistake" You say this like killing a sniper at range is easy. A good sniper knows where to camp so taking them out is next to impossible, and trying to fight them in a range battle is suicidal, even with the BR-16 (he can kill you with one shot and has a weapon with zoom opposed to the BR which has to hit with all three rounds and has no zoom function). Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half the people who main Vassili either wouldn’t mind the changes or don’t care enough to object, especially if they change bolt actions to be able to gib in a single hit (one head shot for the down, one shot for the gib).

(fubar) #131

[quote="[L] GodsMistake;94448"]I do not agree with those changes at all. Most games have a reward for snipers for a headshot: instant kill and gib. Explosives: if youre that close to an explosive, then you should wait it out until the respawn. When Splash Damage released Enemy Territory, it was the same thing and nobody complained then.

My biggest concern is that everyone wants to nerf the game so much that its not a competitive fps game any more, but an FPS with training wheels. 98% of the other deaths you experience in this game give you the opportunity to be revived. This game has some of its lineage in RTCW and Enemy Territory and both of those came out way before COD, so comparisons are silly. I love the Quake 3 based games because they focus on skill and are very fast paced (except the original COD, et al–but they were trying to achieve something different).

Im surprised that people complain about instagib with a sniper rifle. Well, go after the sniper before he gets you. Lets not dumb down the game because apparently grabbing a BR and triple headshotting a sniper across the map is too much to deal with–that is the whole point of a competitive game. You have challenges you have to overcome–or you lose, period. If you’re used to camping corners and back raging people, i can see the challenge there. But I think it is silly to remove those two features just because a vocal minority happen to dislike it.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but I usually get instagibbed, i remember where the sniper was, and then he’s mine. Problem solved because 95% stay in the same spot. I want this game to be challenging and competitive. So think changes through before making them.[/quote]

I love how you compare it to ET and RtCW yet fail to realize that neither of those games have instagibs on SNIPERS. In fact, ET even takes up to TWO headshots to kill a single target, with the sniper. Quake has no 1 shot instakill rail either, unless you specifically play instagib, which… isn’t played competitively, it’s a gimmicky mod.

(Demolama) #132

W:ET nades and mines did 250 damage, which did not insta-gib anyone who had obtained a certain level and that game also had full health reviving medics. To think that nades have to insta-gib to be effective against full health reviving medics is very myopic.

(_retired_) #133

[quote=“Grave Knight;94443”]The problem with that is than you only have a few seconds to revive the medic making it difficult if not impossible for non-medics to revive them. This causes the medics to be less aggressive, even when trying to revive, and brings more focus on Sparks since she can revive without putting herself too much at risk. This would just serve to slow down the game play.[/quote]Well, I wasn’t really pushing the idea, just throwing it out there. And I meant the moment person starts to revive/help which causes the timer to stop. Also there is the problem where it should show how much time player has on his revive/gib timer by other players.
I was just thinking some mechanic that would help the removal of instagib.

(Glot) #134

[quote=“Ardez;94374”]@Pecka Mr.Dubstab is right in that @fubar doesn’t speak for every competitive player. They may have a fairly similar way of thought, but that is partly because Subreddits tends to have a mob mentality.

And competitive isn’t just tournament competitive. It is also high level ranked.

Point is, everybody has their opinions and we need to respect each others opinions. If you have a disagreement with another player then discuss your difference of opinion.

However, each person should speak to their own opinion and not claim to hold the opinion of an entire group of players. I take what fubar says as his own beliefs and don’t presume that he would speak for everybody or even the entire competitive community.

I speak for all of the pubbers who eat nutella and banana sandwiches. They should make it so pistols insta-gib on headshots.

That statement doesn’t make my point more valid or less valid. It is in fact irrelevant to the rest of that quote. Even if I wasn’t outright lying about who I represented it doesn’t mean what I say is accepted by all of them or that it is a good idea.

So argue positions, not people. Please.[/quote]

fubar being one of the most detailed and well-reasoned feedbackers on SD forums for years. so he does represent a lot of thoughts of the competitive majority, but ofc he shouldnt have said, that he speaks for entire community, even if he does =)

(Chase) #135

Just came back from my trip from Malaysia, immediately came here to check on the comments because this whole Vassili-instagib nerf is a big pain in my butt.

Firstly, @watsyurdeal’s idea on focus meters with Vassili is a great idea. It increases the skill-level for Vassili and does not takeaway his effectiveness both in pubs & compe as Vassili is still able to insta-gib, just at a much slower pace. After all, many are upset at how insta-gibs are extremely easy to get with Vassili. However, I’d prefer if Dirty Bomb doesn’t make Vassili a TF2 Sniper clone because Dirty Bomb should have its own unique features and mechanics. Nonetheless, this is a fall-back option if Vassili insta-gibs get out of hand.

A summary of the main content discussed so far (ABOUT Vassili) in this thread is this:
Problems:

  • Vassili insta-gibs are too easy and fast, makes it extremely difficult for the other team to work together.
  • Removing Vassili insta-gibs would make medic revives a lot stronger, especially Sparks which will create an imbalance in the game. Vassili on the other hand will become a lot weaker.

Looking at these problems, I have a solution that will help alleviate the situations.

[quote=“stayfreshshoe;18773”]Hey all,

  • Removing automatic instagibs on Bolt Action Sniper Rifle Headshots
  • Removing automatic instagibs from explosives, such as Frag Grenades

This change would mean that instagibs would still be possible if the target is on low health and the damage ‘eats’ through the incapped health.

To compensate, we have made Bolt Action Sniper Rifles gib downed bodies in one shot, regardless of hit location, and increased the maximum inner damage for affected explosives, while maintaining the same outer damage as before.

[/quote]

Along with the new nerf, i suggest that Vassili have an additional passive ability - we’ll call it Bleed for now. When a Vassili headshots a full-health player, the player will be downed and there will be a short duration of time where the downed player can be revived (3 - 5 seconds). When 3 -5 seconds is up, the downed player will automatically be gibbed due to blood loss and unable to be revived.

With the combination of the Dev’s suggested nerf and the bleed effect,

  • Vassili will no longer have insta-gibs so players will no longer be as frustrated as before.
  • Medic revives will still be viable, allowing teams that work well together to still have the ability to make a comeback push.
  • Vassili headshots will still be rewarding as medics will have to make sure they revive the bleeding players before they are “gibbed”.
  • Situations such as:
    Getting a headshot on a player at 20 seconds on the spawn timer only to be revived by a medic that just got to the battlefield from spawn will be prevented.
  • Medic revives will not be as op as it potentially can be.

This idea is still not as refined as it can be, but i feel that it is a much better compromise between no insta-gibs and making medic revives really strong. The Devs will also have to highlight downed bleeding players to medics so that the medics can get to them in time.

I really hope that the Devs and the community give my idea some consideration and i’d love to hear your thoughts about this bleed effect. Thank you :smile:

(FireWorks) #136

This gibbed-over-time idea and the charge-up are both pretty weird. I mean we already discusse charge being broken for Sparks, dont know if it helps on Vassili.

I really dont like this Damage-over-Time becoming a thing on Vassili, but I think it would be the solution for Sparks revives: Make her revive a Heal-over-Time so people dont get instarevived with full health and spawn protection.

(sentimentalDime) #137

Considering Shoe mentioned that follow-up gibbing would also probably change with the bolt actions (not the PDP I would assume) where it would take simply 1 shot anywhere on the body your concern is a non-issue. Assuming they go that route.

But yeah, I’d like the body spinning fixed too. At least it’s not as bad as it used to be and is now a lot more predictable and less chaotic.[/quote]

If i understand you correctly, that means the Felix and MOA will one shot you anywhere on the body… Please god no! That would make Vassili so OP, even though he wouldn’t be able insta-gib… Óh dear god, if they actually carry through with that, i’m quitting Dirty Bomb…

(_retired_) #138

[quote=“Chase;94548”]Along with the new nerf, i suggest that Vassili have an additional passive ability - we’ll call it Bleed for now. When a Vassili headshots a full-health player, the player will be downed and there will be a short duration of time where the downed player can be revived (3 - 5 seconds). When 3 -5 seconds is up, the downed player will automatically be gibbed due to blood loss and unable to be revived. [/quote]That isn’t bad idea (even though 3 seconds is way too short) and it is similar that I commented earlier.

I think removing instagib from bolt actions and Vassili if it makes him UP, could be such passive ability OR Vassili could have another activated ability that would allow instagibbing like “killshot” or “focus” or something.

Then again I think we’re talking about kind of counterbalance if removing instagib makes Vas so bad he becomes useless and then there’s the issue of other snipers like Aimee with possible bolt actions.

(riptide) #139

This change isn’t going to be as bad OR good as people think. It will take 2 shots to gib any non-fragger 1 body shot + 1 headshot. This means you can body tag almost anyone and they will still fear the sniper. Because medics won’t be able to save them and health pack cd’s are too long.

If there is no Sparks, you can just go on business as usual and headshot everyone and wait for the medic to try a defib res. If there is a Sparks you force her to group up with her team so she can use medpacks on them. This positioning is less than ideal for her, since she would be susceptible to flanks and explosives. But if she doesn’t hold this position then the body shot + fear of the headshot will slow the push down, that much sooner. Because there will be less medpacks for the team.

Alternatively, the sniper has the option to intentionally wait for his teammate to kill the enemy and then shoot him in the body as he drops. Sort of like a race against sparks, gib vs revive.

I’m honestly content with removing instagibbing across the board outside of overkill which leads to an instagib. Personally, it’s more frustrating being gibbed by a spawn nade than it is a headshot.

Just because an ability has a cd, doesn’t mean it’s not OP. Don’t tell me you haven’t ever naded a spawn and got 3 kills 2 being gibs. It’s just as broken if not more so than headshots gibbing.

(Mister__Wiggles) #140

Why not just spin up a few servers that are running experimental builds, loads of games on steam use this method and it will only improve future patches. Its nice to finally see the community getting heard though.