Instagibs - Sniper Rifles & Explosives

(KayDubz) #41

I would be ok with the Vass changes to bolt action. It would seem like a decent testing of balance. I can see both sides to it.

Why the change could be good? Because Vass can sit deep with 5 shots a no cooldown, a good Vass can instantly take out a couple enemies and help turn the tide. He also can shutdown a avenue-way by making the enemy never want to go through there. With the only counter being a counter sniper if you cannot reach him on foot or with explosives.

I will tell you that it’s sometimes not fun at all playing in a pub-match and being forced to use Vass to counter snipe because my teammates wont do it, or because Im the only one good enough to pick off the other Vass. Im not a fan of times where the only counter to a merc, is to choose that same merc.

Why the change could be bad? In that small space of time where a bolt action rifle has to load the next bullet, a good medic can constantly sweep in and revive teammates…even before you land the 1 sniper bullet to ground-gib. And because the instagib is gone, the other medics don’t have to be scared about exposing themselves to revive downed teammates. They can meat shield them while reviving too.

With insta-gib, medics had to be very careful about exposing themselves to a good sniper. And I didnt mind this myself. A good Vass really keeps people honest and the enemy team at bay. Also I usually use Vass sensor to watch the flank. And Ive been able to kill two people before by detecting them and headshoting one of them while they close in on me. Then dispatching the other enemy with a sniper shot to the body and then my sidearm.

With these new changes, I would be screwed even if I dropped one at a distance on the flank, because they can insta-revive and keep rushing threw. Removing insta-gib to sniper rifles means that a good Sparks can constantly revive at a distance or other medics can meat shield while reviving in the open.

Id be open to testing these changes, but Im not sure if its a good idea or not. Ill address explosives in my next post.

(Fiktio) #42

What comes about explosives, removing the insta gib from full health is an idea I like a lot, but still nerf shouldn’t be too harsh.
Explosives should stay still useful for tactical gameplay. They shouldn’t get nerfed to the stone level: when you throw the stone to someone, it hurts, but is not even close to be deadly.

(KayDubz) #43

By no means is removing insta-gib on explosives a good idea. ITS A BAD IDEA PERIOD.

Explosives already have cooldown’s, limits on how many explosives you have, and dead giveaways about them incoming. Airstrikes and Artilery have obvious markers on the ground as well as sounds that make it obvious to get out of the way. Nader’s nade’s have a delay and bright coloring…and her martrydom isnt so quick that you cant jump away. Plus most good players know to not stay close to a Nader upon death.

Proxy mines are pretty obvious on the ground if you look for them. And Fragger is obvious when he’s about to throw a nade. You can see the glowing in his hand and the fact that he’s not holding his gun. And did I already mention all these things have cooldowns and limits of how many you have? But lets delve in more as too why this is a bad idea with a few examples.

With Proxy most people attack by laying mines to cover their tracks or suicide dropping mines on a group of enemies. With the suicide drop, the other team can hear the drop and has 3 seconds to back away from the mine. And unless your standing right on top of it, it wont gib you. In the case of laying mines to cover your Proxy’s tracks, without insta-gib, medics can easily revive and overwhelm a squishy Proxy who did well enough to infiltrate enemy territory to complete the objective.

On defense Proxy a well placed proxy mine can stop a plant. Without insta-gib, medics can instantly revive and get plants off. In maps like underground, removing insta-gib from mines sways things VERY heavily in the attacking teams favor. No longer is it necessary to be scared of mines if you have a medic near. You can just rush like mad. Proxy is thus nerfed a lot by this change imo.

Moving on, lets take Fragger. You already nerfed him by decreasing his nades to 1. That was a good nerf because no longer can a Fragger spam out two nades and decimate an entire team’s spawn or a choke point by himself while killing several people. And generally this was bad with Fragger because you cannot anticipate 2 cooked nades coming over a wall the way you can anticipate air support and Nader’s nades.

With Fragger on 1 nade, you must use it very wisely, and there is a time limit. Sure he can still rightly clear choke points and get in some kills, but only with a very skillfully placed nade. And usually not more than a couple enemies are killed. But without insta-gib you completely nerf the remaining killing power Fragger had as a nade merc because again medics can instantly revive, especially behind walls. No longer can Fragger at all eliminate a medic or Rhino chokepoint behind a corridor with explosives.

The opposing team will not be pushed back because they know they can revive right away using the wall as cover. When a team is camped down with a medic, or Rhino, and especially if they have both…insta-gibbing is NECESSARY. Without it, a team with two medics and a Rhindo can constantly revive one another and the other team mate, with no end in sight, so long as they have cover.

Explosives perfectly countered such choke-point camping. And Fragger is a go-to merc for clearing out routes. I repeat, the first nerf to Fragger was good, and preventing spamming and him being overpowered when a player saves 2 nades. I used to be able to switch to Fragger on maps when my team couldnt deliver the objective for like 6 minutes, and immediately win the game because I switched to Fragger in the last minute and blew up their spawn with 2 insta-gibs on almost the entire team.

Now with 1 nade, I cannot do that. But if you remove insta-gib on explosives, you basically ruin Fragger, Proxy, and others who need insta-gib to handle objectives.

(KayDubz) #44

PS - Sorry for the long posts. I like to be thorough.

(RyePanda) #45

Alright.

My issues with this idea:

Sparks becomes closer to being just as good as Vassili in the sniping category, in addition to healing and reviving.

Vassili becomes far less viable.

Edit: I was wrong about downed health. You can sort of ignore the below paragraph.

So far the way I think it’s being described if an aura has 39 health then gets hit by a FEL-IX body shot she is gibbed because I believe downed health is half of the max regular health of the character and 39 + 40 - 79 = 0. So you won’t get gibbed if hit in the head at 80 health? Even though it would do 158 damage so 80 + 40 - 158 = -38 but you are still not gibbed? It just makes the damage rules inconsistent. Maybe some examples could be provided to clear this up but right now I’m confused by what exactly the requirements are for a sniper body shot to gib.

I’m fine with explosive gibs as those have long cooldowns.

Medics become far more powerful.

Things I think would be good about this:

Less frequently getting instantly sent to a 20 second wait to spawn.

Worth it? Idk.

(Demolama) #46

Currently all a Fragger needed to do is deplete a Spark’s base health +1 extra damage to insta-gib. With the new change 80 health points + 90 gib health = 170 total health points needed to put her into limbo. Thus a 150 damage nade would not insta-gib Sparks, which is where their desire to increase the inner damage for explosives should resolve the concerns about explosive insta-gibbing weakening Fragger.

Keep in mind that nades in RTCW did 200 damage; they did not insta-gib full health classes.

The only weapons capable of insta-gibbing in RTCW were the 400 damage panzer and the 600 damage dynamite.

It’s an overall better change because now even squishies have a chance of being revived.

(RyePanda) #47

[quote=“Demolama;93943”][quote=“god1;93937”][quote=“stayfreshshoe;93931”]
There is an amount of damage each Merc needs to receive in order to be gibbed.
[/quote]
How much is this health? The same as their base health? Don’t think there’s public info about it anywhere.
[/quote]

For mercs whose base health is >100 their gib health is 100; for those <100 it is 90

Source: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/44636-gib-change-suggestions?highlight=gib+health[/quote]

I’m confused. Where does it say those statistics on that page?

Edit: Never mind, found it. So no merc could be insta-gibbed. got it.

(Sterling) #48

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;93986”]By no means is removing insta-gib on explosives a good idea. ITS A BAD IDEA PERIOD.

snip[/quote]
I guess we’ll call that a /thread

I can’t see anything good coming out of nerfing explosives. Sure, they can be annoying, but they are meant to cover an area when they go off. Hell, I actually wanted Nader to get an instagib on direct hit, so she could at least compete more with Fragger. Instagib is part of the gameplay and it’s pretty balanced as it is.

(Mr-Penguin) #49

[quote=“RyePanda;93993”][quote=“Demolama;93943”][quote=“god1;93937”][quote=“stayfreshshoe;93931”]
There is an amount of damage each Merc needs to receive in order to be gibbed.
[/quote]
How much is this health? The same as their base health? Don’t think there’s public info about it anywhere.
[/quote]

For mercs whose base health is >100 their gib health is 100; for those <100 it is 90

Source: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/44636-gib-change-suggestions?highlight=gib+health[/quote]

I’m confused. Where does it say those statistics on that page?

Edit: Never mind, found it. So no merc could be insta-gibbed. got it.[/quote]

Isn’t the health of a downed merc half of their base health? Gibbed a Skyhammer for 60 XP, gibbed a Rhino for 100 XP.

(RyePanda) #50

[quote=“derpypenguinz19;93996”][quote=“RyePanda;93993”][quote=“Demolama;93943”][quote=“god1;93937”][quote=“stayfreshshoe;93931”]
There is an amount of damage each Merc needs to receive in order to be gibbed.
[/quote]
How much is this health? The same as their base health? Don’t think there’s public info about it anywhere.
[/quote]

For mercs whose base health is >100 their gib health is 100; for those <100 it is 90

Source: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/44636-gib-change-suggestions?highlight=gib+health[/quote]

I’m confused. Where does it say those statistics on that page?

Edit: Never mind, found it. So no merc could be insta-gibbed. got it.[/quote]

Isn’t the health of a downed merc half of their base health? Gibbed a Skyhammer for 60 XP, gibbed a Rhino for 100 XP.[/quote]

That’s what I thought.

(Yes) #51

Get rid of it for snipers, don’t get rid of it for explosives. The biggest issue is, that on a sniper, if the player has an ammo supply then they can constantly churn out instagibs. Every explosive that instagibs has a long enough cooldown.

(LifeupOmega) #52

Instant gibs with explosives are fine. They have a cooldown.

Instant gibs with SRs are not fine. They’re too rewarding. They shut down any attempt at a push. If Vasilli could one shot any merc instead, or could have a cooldown which, when activated, would allow you to instant gib the next headshot kill, that would be better.

Right now, at least from competitive balance, he’s borderline overpowered, and you’re forced to run your own sniper to stand a chance.

(Lumi) #53

The first thing I did when I read this thread was to check if the date wasn’t the 1st of April and this was all a joke. I seriously never thought we’d actually get asked about a feature, since the previous trend was to ignore us on every single aspect. So kudos I guess for finally starting a dialogue instead of just developing in your box.

Now, regarding this:

Is that “gib damage” equal to the current damage needed to gib someone who has been downed? Or is it higher when a person hasn’t been downed yet?

In other words if Skyhammer has 120HP and let’s say 40HP to be gibbed when downed, for a skyhammer to be insta-gibbed would it require 160HP if he were full life at start? Or does it work completely differently?

(RyePanda) #54

Feels like this would make Vassili the new useless merc though. Idk, maybe he won’t be but gibbing was his best attribute.

(Asherus) #55

Well putting my opinion on Fragger grenade. Would not like to see it removed reason is just few days ago when i had a game vs hacker who laser gunned everything in medium, close range only way i won against him until he rage quit server was due to Fragger nade. Cause even if some persons uses aimbot at long range distance,keeping far away from him he cannot 1 bullet shoot you dead,thx to the game mechanic we have. And taking away means for 1 nading him dead, well it removes option to outsmart luring him into grenade what is going to kill him when he runs around corner.
Got suggestion why don’t we have these separate setting for private matches like this new suggestion here from op? Cause we need that 1 grenades kills for public games.
Thinking now its not easy, cause we have 3 separate are of game play: competitive, public, private. Where this setting I would not mind is in private matches ( option to select this settings ) where players can test,clans do their matches to have a game who is actual better. Public and Comp game kind of is not a good idea not to have cause fragger nade only as 1 mean I had for vs aimboters to win vs them is gone with this new idea.

(XavienX) #56

Ehhhh, kinda like it and kinda don’t. I mean, it’s really hard to snipe in this game compared to many other FPS, and now that instagibs being changed, but not removed, I’m guessing it’s ok…? Dunno how to feel bout dis.

(SirSwag) #57

Excellent change. That’s why you guys are the developers.

(watsyurdeal) #58

Honestly, no it isn’t, it’s actually pretty natural if you’re used to games like Team Fortress and Unreal Tournament.

The question is should we really remove gibbing on headshot, or give it a cooldown?

Personally I do not think explosives should change, that’s what counters Medics, the ability to gib someone instantly and deny a revive. Without it I’d think Medics would be way too powerful, imagine Fragger, but worse, the more Medics you have the more likely you are too win. Hell it’s almost this way right now to be honest, and I don’t like it.

(Demolama) #59

Personally, I just don’t like any weapon having the ability to bypass the gib health pool, which is what currently exists in the game.

WIth that said I think the next question we all should be asking eachother is whether a single grenade should have the same amount of potential gibbing power that something as big as an airstrike or a rocket launcher (if it is introduced)should have? IMHO no. Mines and nades are not on the same level of total damage output as airstrikes, Kira’s lazers, or artillery strikes. I mean just ask yourself how many nades does it take to destroy an EV? That right there should tell you that a single nade should not be able to insta-gib all 5 members of a team like it currently can.

His high health, excellent weapons, and use of nades to clear the route is enough to make him the point man of any team in CQC. He doesn’t need to remain a lesser-skyhammer with quicker refreshing gibbing weapons to still be part of the current meta

(Jostabeere) #60

And it will be great. No more “useless to the team-CoD-heroes”.