If the sniper was balanced, would you still play?

[BMXer]

I realize Vasilli is flashy and fun for some people to watch but I can’t help but think the sniper in DB is OP.

The sniper was nerfed recently by adding more sway. The nerf was specifically to combat the “jumping sniper”. The nerf didn’t work as expected and everyone got all worried the sniper was “useless”. Then the nerf was reverted and no further action was taken to combat the obvious problem. What kinda sense does that make? Was their not a problem in the first place? Where is the proper nerf?

The one shot gib is unbalanced if you ask me. A decent Vasilli can hold an entire team down. No other class can do that alone. Not only is it unbalanced but its frankly no fun to play against.

The obvious counter is a counter sniper, right? Well sure but that just makes the game 4v4 with the two snipers playing their own little mini game. Dumb imho.

The one shot kill and gib doesn’t have a place in Dirty Bomb if you ask me. What was so wrong with 1 headshot killing but not gibbing and 1 shot on a downed body gibbing? It worked great in past games and kept the sniper strong but not OP.

I have a feeling the flashiness and the attention all the “top snipers” get are keeping SD from actually balancing Vasilli properly.

Would you still play Dirty Bomb if Vasilli couldn’t 1 shot kill and gib?

[Protekt1]

I vote no nerf needed. At least as far as the gun itself goes.

Also don’t forget that 2 more snipers aren’t even in the game yet. The one with the smoke grenade can counter sniping multiple ways.

[PixelTwitch]

[QUOTE=BMXer;530456]I realize Vasilli is flashy and fun for some people to watch but I can’t help but think the sniper in DB is OP.

The sniper was nerfed recently by adding more sway. The nerf was specifically to combat the “jumping sniper”. The nerf didn’t work as expected and everyone got all worried the sniper was “useless”. Then the nerf was reverted and no further action was taken to combat the obvious problem. What kinda sense does that make? Was their not a problem in the first place? Where is the proper nerf?

The one shot gib is unbalanced if you ask me. A decent Vasilli can hold an entire team down. No other class can do that alone. Not only is it unbalanced but its frankly no fun to play against.

The obvious counter is a counter sniper, right? Well sure but that just makes the game 4v4 with the two snipers playing their own little mini game. Dumb imho.

The one shot kill and gib doesn’t have a place in Dirty Bomb if you ask me. What was so wrong with 1 headshot killing but not gibbing and 1 shot on a downed body gibbing? It worked great in past games and kept the sniper strong but not OP.

I have a feeling the flashiness and the attention all the “top snipers” get are keeping SD from actually balancing Vasilli properly.

Would you still play Dirty Bomb if Vasilli couldn’t 1 shot kill and gib?[/QUOTE]

The problem with the sniper is not really easy to fix by making changes to the sniper.

To be frank, the revive system is ridiculously bad and really limits what can be done to many abilities and Mercs.
Simply removing the GIB would make the sniper close to useless due to the strength of medics. Sure it would be quite strong still in public when there is no medics but it slows the sniper gameplay down massively and really does not effect the overall feeling of its power very much.

Getting one shot killed + gibbed in a public server is the same as being instantly gibbed the vast majority of the time due to lack of revives and active medics. The time between sniper shots would make gibbing the player you HS almost impossible when they have a pocket medic due to the time between shots. Also it forces you to remain visible for longer after a shot. The small change would have huge effects on the snipers.

I would like to quickly mention about the Nerf being reversed.
I feel the problem before the nerf was not really all that much related to numerical balance but rather how dumb the whole idea was. I believe the idea of the sway to was try and convince people to not jump around like crazy idiots rather than effect the overall balance massively. Sure, I feel the sniper still needs a nerf in some ways but I worry that the only way to do it without removing the gib would really effect the “feel” of a sniper overall.

Other options include…
Longer Time Between Shots.
Scope Settle Time
Slower Scope Speed
Limiting Jump Height While Scoped
Making Sniper Easier To See While Scoped
and many more.

[BMXer]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;530458]The problem with the sniper is not really easy to fix by making changes to the sniper.

To be frank, the revive system is ridiculously bad and really limits what can be done to many abilities and Mercs.
Simply removing the GIB would make the sniper close to useless due to the strength of medics. Sure it would be quite strong still in public when there is no medics but it slows the sniper gameplay down massively and really does not effect the overall feeling of its power very much.
[/QUOTE]

I feel like the entire GIB system needs work rather than the medic’s revive. The revive mechanic is pretty much the same as it was in all the past games. It just seems like it takes far too long to gib a downed player.
I honestly don’t see the problem with 1 headshot killing but not gibbing as long as it only take 1 body shot to gib a downed player. Sure, a medic can revive but if you give Vasilli 1 shot gib on downed players, it seems fair. Every other character has to worry about he opponent getting revived before he can gib. Only requiring 1 body shot on a downed player with Vasilli seems like a more fair scenario… especially considering how fast Vasilli’s ROF is and how easy it is to spam… and the fact that he has a wall hack nade every spawn wave.

Getting one shot killed + gibbed in a public server is the same as being instantly gibbed the vast majority of the time due to lack of revives and active medics. The time between sniper shots would make gibbing the player you HS almost impossible when they have a pocket medic due to the time between shots. Also it forces you to remain visible for longer after a shot. The small change would have huge effects on the snipers.

Thats kinda my point. Vasilli needs a change that has a huge effect! Its currently the strongest Character in the game. Almost always top fragging. It makes no sense that Vasilli is stronger than Fragger!

I would like to quickly mention about the Nerf being reversed.
I feel the problem before the nerf was not really all that much related to numerical balance but rather how dumb the whole idea was. I believe the idea of the sway to was try and convince people to not jump around like crazy idiots rather than effect the overall balance massively. Sure, I feel the sniper still needs a nerf in some ways but I worry that the only way to do it without removing the gib would really effect the “feel” of a sniper overall.

Does it not seem strange that they felt the need to nerf Vasilli, got kinda flamed for the actual nerf by the vocal minority, then just reverted it back with no further action? I get what you are saying but I just think its very odd that they just left it and didn’t renerf it properly.

Other options include…
Longer Time Between Shots.
Scope Settle Time
Slower Scope Speed
Limiting Jump Height While Scoped
Making Sniper Easier To See While Scoped
and many more.

Any and all of these sound great to me. I personally think Vasilli is far too easy to use. Something needs to be done, that’s for sure!

[onYn]

The Sniper is gibing and killing in one shot?^^ I hope im just geting that wrong.

Removing gibing as a whole would be ultimate poor mans way out of the slump and just another tactic crippling decision. NO GO.

In my eyes sniper (if its really that op) should get a longer time while reloading the next bullet and a decrease in movement speed while doing so. Also his movement overall and health could be lowered. Played at the right positions (and dont ask me where those are on the current maps, I just hope they come soon :)), he would still be deadly but garbage in open fights as well as close range. Basically what a sniper should be anyways… Also very situational (if SD finally gets it stuff sorted out with the maps…) what is awesome for the game as well

But are people really hiting that many headshots with the sniper? I havent experienced it in person yet, and I mean I am not a bigshot by any means but if I compare that to a DMG rank in CS:GO where people struggle to hit a headshot with a pistol to save there life I have a hard time beliving that oneshotkills into the head are OP in DB. And while DMG may be a ****ty rank you have to consider that DB is paced much faster then DB, what´s going to make it much harder to actually hit something. But well, maybe Ill see one of those gods on the server soon

And yeah, to be honest I totally think that some objectives and even maps really should be designed in a way so that a team with a good sniper can benefit MASSIVELY from him. Obviously enough counter play should be given (like having a way to counter sniper, work with airstrikes, take another path that maybe is more of a bottleneck tho… etc.) but overall I don´t see a problem with a sniper holding off teams on certain objectives, especially when they don´t work around him appropriately, as long as it doesn´t happen too often.

PS: And while I reread this, I realized that most of what I am saying is based of the fact that the maps get anyway decent in the future SORRY

[sunshinefats]

What really bothers me about the whole sniper thing is that ultimately nothing was really done, and meanwhile fragger’s nade got nerfed multiple times. You know, I threw a nade into the middle of 3 people huddled together and none of them died earlier tonight. Seriously. Not to mention(ok, maybe just once) the 45 second cook time it has(well it seems that way sometimes lol)…but anyways, back on topic, 2-3 decent snipers can undeniably pin down an entire opposing team on certain maps, especially given that on said maps(depending on which side they’re on) they may have a terrain advantage as well(the high ground, better spots and all that). I think the backtracking we’ve seen in practice on certain mercs shows a trend the devs have of favoring the highest k/d players…which I wouldn’t have any issue with were this game not marketed as it is now. As far as what to do about the sniper, I think a 1 hit kill 1 hit gib seems fair. After all, the medics are taking a chance running into a zone they know a sniper is watching to revive. A good sniper will pop the medic then gib them both. And I couldn’t feel too bad about that, because it’s pretty awesome. That still leaves the question of how to counter snipers though and I personally don’t believe countering only with other snipers is the most viable option. Just thinking out loud here, but why not give the new soldier whatshisface(the one with the minigun) a smoke grenade instead of the concussion. Then he could , at least, block their view temporarily allowing teammates to get through for a brief moment. Smoke was always a powerful presence in my favorite old games and I kinda miss is. For that matter why not bring back disguises. Then our guy can just stroll over there and knife the sniper(16 times) in the back to (maybe) kill him. Anyways, just some random ramblings after I took my sleepytime pills tonight, so don’t take it too serisously…

[onYn]

I almost forgot about it. Do we actually have balanced matchmaking where we can be CERTAIN that the people are about on the same skill level? Otherwise all this discussion is nonsense anyway. And aren´t smokes allready in the game? If not then get them into it I guess :P. Could as well put flashes and decoys in it as well…

[alphabeta]

Actually great ideas. Especially smoke and/or disguises.

One head shot should not actually take your head off; those maps are incredibly miserable to play. Spawn, get headshotted, spawn, etc.

[BioSnark]

3merc system means almost nobody can counter snipe so the class is generally uncountered in public. I’d love a 5merc system limited to 1 per class but a sniper nerf would still be in order.

Regarding gibbing, this is a bit of a real pain now. Everyone having grenades… well, times change, I guess. Perhaps that needs to be in a separate discussion but it needs to be discussed.

[Protekt1]

How much disruption does a sniper experience when being shot? I often find myself hitting snipers fine but they just tank it all and hit me anyway. I don’t snipe enough myself to know whether the knockback is enough or not.

I would suggest a ROF nerf for the sniper but I think too much could basically nullify body shots being useful.

Maybe the gib shouldn’t be instant but happen 2 seconds after the player dies. That is a small window for a revive to hit, and also still risky cause the sniper can hit the medic when he rushes to revive.

Anyway, I still think sniper is largely fine as is. We may want additional ways to fight against each strong strategy though, including sniper. There shouldn’t be a strategy that trumps all others, and if snipers are a part of that, then maybe a small tweak is necessary here or there but another and better way is to introduce mercs that counter snipers, like the red eye dude with smoke grenades.

edit:
Here is an ability idea-
Personal shield - this is a medic ability that is like a health pack; that gives a personal shield while it heals. It heals slower than the standard health packs but also makes you immune to the first shot you take which also breaks the health regen.

Distortion Field - This is an assault ability that reduces all bullet damage to friendly players within a radius around the assault player for 10 seconds. This doesn’t reduce explosive damage. No longer are headshots 1hks, although still bring players down to near death (20-30% health remaining I guess). One concern I could see is having this plus phoenix’s health regen field being too strong being up at the same time, so that could be tweaked to not work together maybe, but then again they are very vulnerable to explosives at this time.

[Humbugsen]

In my opinion there are 2 problems

1. he can spam shots without any penalty
2. jumpsniping is too poweful/easy

i still think a “hold breath bar” + sway would be good, so that he can spam around 3 shots before he needs to recover.
That way he needs to do precise shots instead of endless flickshots and he can’t take down a full team of 5 in 3seconds

[Pakaa]

Re: Disguises

Valve, or someone, had a blogpost about that recently which I think boiled down to disguises reducing/disrupting teamplay. In my eyes, disguises are fun, but they do tend to make things messy, and I think there are solid arguments for not including them. It worked well enough in QW, but I don’t want the DB-community shooting me as a medic for running towards them, especially since I really want FF on even on pubs at some point in the future. And it doesn’t really solve the issue here which is snipers in competitive, where disguises seldom work well.

Anyway, I’m not convinced that drastic changes to the sniper role is where the solution lies ATM. They’ve moved that class balance around a lot, and they’re in a good place now when it comes to fun and utility. I’d say let them be for the time being and move other stuff around and see if a solution is to be found elsewhere (smokes, tactics, revive-mechanics etc).

[Smooth]

There’s a lot of things we can do with the Sniper rifle if we want to change it, as PixelTwitch said. One thing we’re hesitant to do though is simply nerf the strengths (in this case the headshot gib) of particular Mercs and weapons, as this will homogenize the Mercs and make choices between them less meaningful.

Ideally we want to accentuate the strengths of each Merc and keep them fun while countering that with additional weaknesses. In this case things like the time between shots and sniper-visibility (e.g. seeing a scope glint when you’re being aimed at) are the more likely route we’ll take.

DB is a constantly evolving game and it’s very early days yet. Things like Merc and weapon balance are definitely going to change as players settle into higher-level play, we introduce friendly-fire, and as more Mercs and abilities get added. We’ll be constantly playing, analysing the data and listening to feedback as we strive to make DB as good as we can.

PS. Updated the poll to remove the absurdly ‘leading’ answer options so it’s actually useful for us.

[adeto]

When a sniper is zoomed in and you give him a headshot, the scope breaks and it becomes a ADS rifle… Lezdodis

[Amerika]

The class is fun and useful right now. He’s exactly perfect for the type of game DB is. He’s pretty fragile but you aren’t completely useless in CQ so you can be offensive with him. The thing that most people want to nerf, his ability to be mobile, will only create the static sit in the back snipers who don’t even help their team whatsoever and make the problem even worse. Because instead of having somebody useful on your team you’ll get somebody who never moves from a window that is taking pot shots. Especially if the headshot gib is removed. It makes no sense to change Vassili right now as well when there will soon be very easy counters to his ability to long range snipe (smoke and a merc that’s very good at taking him out). So making changes now would be an error and some of you aren’t thinking of the big picture and cause/effects of the changes proposed.

Luckily there are a lot of people voting who definitely have some sense.

[Ceres]

[QUOTE=Smooth;530643]

PS. Updated the poll to remove the absurdly ‘leading’ answer options so it’s actually useful for us.[/QUOTE]

I think the poll got completely messed up after the change.

[Destroy666]

Obvious counter to Vassili? Not only other Vassilis, but also quite flat maps. However, despite that, I still dislike playing against/with/as them. That doesn’t mean I’d remove the headshot = gib ability. It’s a reasonable feature. I’d rather make it harder to get HS when moving (especially jumping, sniper rabbits are so annoying).

[Szakalot]

Obvious counter to Vassili? Not only other Vassilis, but also quite flat maps. However, despite that, I still dislike playing against/with/as them. That doesn’t mean I’d remove the headshot = gib ability. It’s a reasonable feature. I’d rather make it harder to get HS when moving (especially jumping, sniper rabbits are so annoying).

flat maps are a counter to vassili?

isnt it the other way around?

[sunshinefats]

With things as they are Vassili is basically taking the role they intended for Fragger to have…they should swap the names on those two and it would be more appropriate ;p

[Ceres]

Idk what you mean man. 80% of the teams getting carried by a merc that can 1 shot kill and gib people. Sounds balanced enough.