I played Brink at quakecon, some concerns

(Ragoo) #61

Someone still has to explain to me why I as a PC gamer should be happy that preselecting tools/nades, manually plant dynamite or having healthpacks/ammopacks to throw around is removed and replaced by a one-button-autopilot.
I think this just removes both tactical depth and lowers the skill-cap for many actions, which in general is a bad thing for a game that will (hopefully) be played for many years.
Imo things like where to throw your healthpacks, where to place the dynamite (do you just rush and throw it down in the middle of the obj or do you have enough time to hide it somewhere at the bottom or top or whatever) or preselecting your hacking tool while running towards the obj are very small and subtle differences between casual players and really good players that you had to learn just like strafing/trickjumping and what have you.

And the one-button crap was just horrible in Wolfenstein and removed by the Promod time within 2 weeks or so.

edit: wow, f***ing blue screen

As much as I like to bash SD for some of their decisions ( :stuck_out_tongue: ), this is not true since they said in the forums that they will have “/kill” as a server option because they are aware of the importance. So the servers you and me will play on will most likely have /kill.
I guess they really won’t give us spawn selection though :frowning: (too complicated for ps3 users, you know? :P)

(Voxie) #62

It’s nice to read the input from pro-bankers. While I understand your concern with a context-sensitive button and the inherent reluctance to change (we’ve used weapon banks since RTCW for almost a decade after all), I don’t buy the whole argument that the skill cap and depth suffers. There is a difference between dumbing down and streamlining after all.

Is it really so hard to go from “I’ll run to my objective, hit 6 on my keyboard and hold my left mouse button once I get close to it” to “I’ll run to my objective, press and hold F on my keyboard once I’m half a second away from it”? Method number two seems like a much more intuitive way of interfacing with the world to me…

And before anyone asks “Voxie, if I can’t preselect medpacks, how can I manually throw them on the ground?”: as seen in the E3 '10 video, you throw *packs and review syringes directly to your teammates. With the new method you can heal your friend with the push of a button and resume whatever you were doing half a second later – how is that a bad thing and worth sacrificing for far less intuitive controls and prehaps an iota of skill depth?

In short: please take into account that this is a new IP with different design goals, not Return to Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory :tongue:

(Apples) #63

The thing I dislike is not the changes, its the fact that you wont have the same ammount of choice, also, the automatic button better be really really well made, cuz if you press F @ qw on an objective you can loose almost one second till your guy finally use is tool.

Also, a bank stuff is here cuz its really easier (well, to me) to hold down mouse button instead of F while I’m running / strafing / doing anything else than crossing in a straight line like a lemming.

I wont start to rant against everything again cuz i already expressed my opinions on this peculiar (and many others) subjects… So until I can try a non steam polished beta (oh wai… sry I cant resist) I guess we just have to wait and see what this game has to offer.

And once again dont get me wrong here, seeing so many cons is somehow a sign that I care a bit about this game :wink: I just fear that it may turn all the SD’s “afficionados” off for good if its too much cod’ish_instant_noobfriendly style.

ps : on a sidenote thats why I think a beta would still be a UBER addition to this game’s development, because basically here we are fighting over a thing almost no-one ever touched oO (and no, there isnt any sexual content in this last phrase)

Peace

(shirosae) #64

a) Take your aim away from the enemy, point it at your teammate, and hold the use key to throw syringes and pack, only at the time and location they’re needed.

b) Create a little pile of packs and syringes before the fight happens, so your wounded teammates can fall back to gain some health when it’s required without needing me to jack myself into them. The reward is that the half second happens before the fight so I can be shooting during the firefight, and anyone who gets injured can get healed, not just the person you’re looking at.

These are different things.

a is a reactive mechanism. b is a proactive mechanism.

The problem is that b has been removed, when it didn’t need to be. Having a on its own is worse than having both a and b. Having a on its own is worse than having b on its own, because b can perform the functions of a with only minor drawbacks.

Design goals which apparently involve not rewarding battle-awareness and pre-emptive actions. The problem isn’t that the mechanism is different, it’s that it’s bad.

(potkettleblack) #65

Apparently pre packing is a difficult concept.
In saying that so is pressing B for Build and S for Supply Depot.

(DarkangelUK) #66

Why would you not have to pre-empt any more? I can see the point if you didn’t have to do anything, but you still need to press a button to build, or supply when you want to… in this case it’s just a different button.

(Voxie) #67

Try not to compare it to how it works in ET and Quake Wars; as seen in the E3 video the handout is almost instant and can happen from a distance. Giving out items seems to be a lot faster in Brink.

[QUOTE=shirosae;236988]a is a reactive mechanism. b is a proactive mechanism.

The problem is that b has been removed[…][/QUOTE]

Correct. Method A (as seen in Brink) is time-wise and input-wise a superior reactive mechanism compared to the classic way of dealing with things, but as you state, it doesn’t work proactively and it doesn’t need to.
Why? Because, love it or hate it, your health regenerates in Brink. Falling back to a pile of medpacks is replaced by simply disengaging from combat.

(Apples) #68

Oh yeah I forgot that oO, this is getting worse :smiley:

*apples is ready to play quake live exclusively for his remaining life

(Ashog) #69

why not just having both versions of selecting tools (and other dubious actions) in game - the moar noob-friendly version of action enabled by default and a manual version enabled by a cvar?
Smth like advanced hud cvar in ETQW was… Say, smth like allow_toolselection 0 by default and allow_toolselection 1 to be set in game menu or manually? Anyone explain me why is that not possible?
Takes only a bit of more code and all are happy…

Or will it introduce a difference between PC/console versions?

(Voxie) #70

I’m half-way with you on that one. I really hope that we won’t get full HP regen; a system like the one in Far Cry 2 would be great though. In FC2 your health bar is split up in four-or-so different boxes and your health won’t regenerate boxes that have been fully depleted, meaning that if you want more than 25/50/75% of your max health regenerated you’ll have to find a medpack/com station. In practice that means that you’ll always regen some of your health, but if you’ve lost >25% of your life you’ll need to find a source of health to get back at max.

Edit: Do we have any footage showing how the regeneration works at the moment? Would anyone from SD enlighten us?

(shirosae) #71

No, because it demands that the time investment happens during a fight. A half-second between fights is cheap. A half-second during a fight is very expensive.

No, because fumbling for the use key whilst trying to aim at your moving teammates whilst trying to determine which are wounded is not easier than pushing a key anytime you want.

[QUOTE=Voxie;236992]compared to the classic way of dealing with things, but as you state, it doesn’t work proactively and it doesn’t need to.
Why? Because, love it or hate it, your health regenerates in Brink. Falling back to a pile of medpacks is replaced by simply disengaging from combat.[/QUOTE]

And this is the problem. Preselection offers a small but tangible benefit to pre-emptive actions. Brink offers a blanket benefit to everyone, whether they’re able to judge the upcoming fight or not. A very subtle meta-game has been carpet bombed by auto-regen and the unibutton. This is the skill blunting that people talk about.

(DarkangelUK) #72

I’m not following here. With a weaponbank you’d need to select the weaponbank, then use the weapon bank with mouse1. With a dedicate multi-function use key, you press it and both actions are done in 1… where is the extra half second coming from?

No, because fumbling for the use key whilst trying to aim at your moving teammates whilst trying to determine which are wounded is not easier than pushing a key anytime you want.

If i’ve bound a key myself, I know where it is so I don’t think there’s going to be any fumbling. Why would you bind it somewhere where you can’t easily access it? I will admit there will be a bit of transition required to get used to it, just not the extent of complete loss that’s being hinted at.

(tokamak) #73

[QUOTE=shirosae;237000]No, because it demands that the time investment happens during a fight. A half-second between fights is cheap. A half-second during a fight is very expensive.
[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with this. People should be rewarded for equipping beforehand. Otherwise it will just be about touch-downs like the Assault mode in UT.

(Voxie) #74

[QUOTE=shirosae;237000]No, because it demands that the time investment happens during a fight. A half-second between fights is cheap. A half-second during a fight is very expensive.
[…]
A very subtle meta-game has been carpet bombed[…] This is the skill blunting that people talk about.[/QUOTE]

Seems to me like this replaces one form of skill and meta-game with another.
An added benefit is that you won’t have to deal with clueless teammates who are seemingly ignorant to the fact that you just dropped a medpack in front of their faces.

(jazevec) #75

Is it really hard to understand that intuitive doesn’t equal good ? In fact, it often means short-sighted. This is a classic case of dumbing down, not streamlining.

In short: please take into account that this is a new IP with different design goals, not Return to Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory :tongue:

Sorry, I don’t believe in Imaginary Property. I also refuse to be lumped together with all the technophobes - ups, sorry, I meant console players. One reason I own a computer and not a console is because I want to be able to do more.

The reasoning probably goes like this:
Gaming consoles are popular. Therefore, console games are what makes them successful. Therefore, computer games should be made like console games.

(DrpPlates) #76

really? a medic can revive himself?? if true, not really sure how i feel about that… seems kind of lame and your right will inspire even more ‘rambo medic’ mentality…

but then again, i would need to see how that plays out during the game…

i forget- is 6vs6 or 8vs8 ?? so maybe a self reviving med is necessary… i dont know…

At this point in time, after all i read here and in my PC gaming magazines the game hasn’t inspired the ‘must have’ vibe for me… but then again, I felt the same way about ETQW… And then I was lucky enough to play the beta - and bought it the day of release, hoping SD has a open beta or demo for Brink as well…

– side ?? –
am assuming you can still gimb a downed opponent?

(jazevec) #77

[QUOTE=DrpPlates;237015]really? a medic can revive himself?? if true, not really sure how i feel about that… seems kind of lame and your right will inspire even more ‘rambo medic’ mentality…
[/QUOTE]

It could be ok if it’s not instant. For example it could take 5 seconds and produce a distinctive sound. That way, the medic would have to survive* 5 seconds in potentially dangerous situation. Medic could revive himself, but only with fire support or if he’s lucky to fall behind cover.

  • assuming no spawn invulnerability like in W:ET or ET:QW. It wouldn’t make sense now that players choose when to respawn, there’s no mortar, airstrike, artillery, and spawns are protected by indestructible turrets.
(H0RSE) #78

really? a medic can revive himself?? if true, not really sure how i feel about that… seems kind of lame and your right will inspire even more ‘rambo medic’ mentality…

It’s an ability you need to unlock and buy- it’s not a default skill that all medics have. Just like the area of effect revive grenade.

The way I see it, Brink seems like it’s going to be an extremely fun experience with it’s customization and abilities. The problem with that around here is, a lot of people forgot what it means to play a game for fun, and only want a hardened, stripped-down, oldschool, competitive experience - 1 button to select something?! BLASPHEMY!! no weaponbanks?! HOGWASH!!

(Shiv) #79

come on man, read whats been posted…
this is why they are showing with console controllers.
It would be awesome to have a go with pc… but they want people to see the controller is fully supported… and done well.

(Senyin) #80

I just want to say that yes, there is a fine line between streamlining and dumbing down.
Dumbing down is very insulting but newbies do not even realize the game has been dumbed down
for them so to most of them it’s not…:rolleyes:
I hate dumbing down.

A self reviving medic… would be nice if the medic was capable of crawling to cover and then take out a sewingkit
and sew up his wounds, haha, which will take some good time ofcourse.
But a self reviving medic…really? Hmm, I don’t know.

I understand you are not able to pre-dump medpacks at strategic points or while you run past a
wounded teammate while shooting at an enemy ect. You have to ‘look’/aim/point at the teammate. That sucks.

No matter what I may hear or see, I will buy Brink nontheless because I
am rich anyway (not) and want to play it myself for at least a month, then judge.
I am always willing to adapt to a new style of play as long as it’s not too simple (casual)
or overly “bling bling”(stupid stuff to caress your ego: stupid triplejump, supercombokill, megakillingstreak,
uberheadshot, supahdupahslide ect. hate that childish crap.) Or alt-fire.