How to make field ops more useful?

(Zenity) #41

Just throwing this out here as well: What if we had a one Assault rule in competition (similar to one Soldier in RTCW). If teams want more than one slayer they will have to add FOps. Makes sense to me? This would also work fine in addition to a unique mercs rule if desired, or even drafting.

It would also mean that if teams want to use a tactical Assault like Nader for example, they would have to temporarily remove Fragger. This would limit certain strategies, but not more than we were limited for example by not being able to use both a Panzerfaust and a mobile MG at the same time. The Assault player just has to be a bit flexible.

(Szakalot) #42

I’d rather stay with one merc type per team

(yakcyll) #43

I personally wouldn’t mind class limits instead of merc limits. Gives players the freedom of choice while reducing the use of certain classes of abilities.

(BioSnark) #44

This won’t happen because we’re too stupid to use multiple abilities but field ops purpose should be damage denial as well as area denial.

So, grenades with effects such as, projectile deflector, smoke grenade, plasma shield.

(LiNkzr) #45

“What if we had a one Assault rule in competition (similar to one Soldier in RTCW). If teams want more than one slayer they will have to add FOps”

I’m fine experimenting in cups and tourneys, but this just seems like you want to force it with rules. I think it’s pretty straight-forward how to buff FOps to make them viable (or rather change out the ammo boxes and map design)

  1. Either remove or nerf further the ammo boxes
  2. Move ammo boxes to more contested locations or make them capturable
  3. when you killout you only spawn with 1 clip
  4. Make them better at area denial

about the 4th point I think someone already suggested good stuff how to improve it.

(syku1) #46

  1. Either remove or nerf further the ammo boxes
    You gotta be careful nerfing the ammo boxes, we all know how hard it can be getting ammo in pubs, if the ammo boxes gives out ammo super slow you might as well remove them cause nobody wants to stand there for a minute getting ammo.

  2. Move ammo boxes to more contested locations or make them capturable
    They have tried this on the first objective on terminal and it ends up being very hard for a defender to get ammo from that box depending on where you are on the map (for example if you defend at luggage your only option is to suicide if you don’t have a ammo guy), it just makes suicideing more viable aswell.

  3. when you killout you only spawn with 1 clip
    Not sure about this.

  4. Make them better at area denial
    There are already mercs that are suppose to be used for area denial (stoker,kira,nader, arguably fragger etcetc) You don’t want to much spam around the map. The current field ops are good at taking down the EV and not so good at area denial which is fine, i want mercs to be diverse.

(Rémy Cabresin) #47

Making some abilities ammo dependent rather than on cooldowns would be the easiest fix. Having no more nades/revives/mines/turrets after using a couple of them would either force teams into using a Fire Support class more if they want to play for longer map control. Though some people will see this as ‘well people are just going to selfkill to get ammo’ since a lot of people on these forums feel like suiciding is a travesty or something.

(Szakalot) #48

not a travesty, but I’d welcome a DB mode inbetween SW and execution where you are more protective of your life, rather than constant kamikaze.

(Nail) #49

want FOPs used more ?
have them hand out Credits along with ammo, job done

(Rémy Cabresin) #50

If you call that using suicide kamikaze, you’ve clearly never played any game with suiciding on a high level. Some people one these forums are trying to turn DB more into a MOBA than a shooter which I call an insult to a game that calls itself a return to oldschool fps. Go back to ****ing LoL and you’re other crappy top down bs if you don’t like BASIC SHOOTER STOPWATCH mechanics…

(Szakalot) #51

ur basically saying ‘u disagree with me therefore you must suck’

come on mate, ive been playing ET too, and yes in comp as well.

but I don’t see ET’s suicide mechanic as some wholy grail of team tactics.

(chickenNwaffles) #52

[QUOTE=Szakalot;527972]ur basically saying ‘u disagree with me therefore you must suck’

come on mate, ive been playing ET too, and yes in comp as well.

but I don’t see ET’s suicide mechanic as some wholy grail of team tactics.[/QUOTE]

I don’t see suicide as an issue at all; actually, it takes good players, who understand SW mechanics fully, to use suicide to it’s full effect. Most others do it for ammo, which isn’t really a problem, as we are seeing more skyhammers with the 1 merc limit. Field ops is useful enough, but maybe adding additional “perks” to the ammopacks would make them better.

(fubar) #53

[QUOTE=Szakalot;527972]ur basically saying ‘u disagree with me therefore you must suck’

come on mate, ive been playing ET too, and yes in comp as well.

but I don’t see ET’s suicide mechanic as some wholy grail of team tactics.[/QUOTE]

that’s because you evidently don’t understand it. period. Having played ETPro pub servers or even just a bunch of random low+ scrims hardly accounts for “comp experience”. Sorry.

(ARTiER) #54

the skillpolice is striking again :wink: just ignore it Szaka

(Szakalot) #55

I am not disputing the effectiveness of /kill in SW games. in ET esp. you’d have medics /kill every single wave, its not like fops can waste charge on ammo packs.

I’m arguing that SW rounds need not rely on tactics revolving around fixed time spawnwaves. Considering how TDMy game is already (more so than W:ET), I’d welcome attempts at making individual lives more precious.

And frankly, I’d be excited to see SW where deaths are more punishing, regardless of their timing.

(Rémy Cabresin) #56

[QUOTE=Szakalot;527972]ur basically saying ‘u disagree with me therefore you must suck’

come on mate, ive been playing ET too, and yes in comp as well.

but I don’t see ET’s suicide mechanic as some wholy grail of team tactics.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say ET’s suicide mechanic is some holy grail of tactics. What I said is that suicide is a basic SW mechanic that shouldn’t be punished. Making individual deaths more important than being allowed to quickly regroup with your team shifts the balance away from pushing with your team and towards individual play making. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, games like CS do it well, but those are not SW based games. Games like ET/RtCW/ETQW have been such amazing and stand out games because they focus on teamplay instead of individual skill. You can have the best aimer in the world on your team, but a team with better teamwork will still beat you. Which is much more uncommon in ‘kill-trade’ based games like CoD and CS. Also people claiming that ‘suicide isn’t being punished’ don’t seem to realize that quite often selfkilling also means that you’re giving up (control over) a certain area,which can be the biggest punishment there is in any game if you don’t do it right… Selfkilling properly adds a layer of skill/experience/strategy/teamplay/decision making.

Also I should rephrase that trying to turn into moba should be trying to turn DB’s SW into something it shouldn’t be. That’s why there is execution to cater those players. It’s not so much about skill, it’s about understanding that some basics are what makes or breaks a game(mode), and (imo) yes that means that people who’ve played at the top level in other games(and nowhere am I saying that that means ‘only ET players’) have a more valuable input than others simply because they’ve put in more effort,more depth and often more hours than their casual companions. Which is for the same reasons that I think it’s a joke that people who played the game(or even just mercs) are demanding/asking for changes after they’ve played said game or said merc for 2/3 hours. Or people who post ‘Wouldn’t recommend’ on steam reviews after 2 hours. Their words mean **** all imo because they simply didn’t put enough time in/don’t have enough experience with the game for their opinion to be well informed.

edit: this isn’t aimed at you personally btw :stuck_out_tongue: just in general my opinion on these forums lately(let alone nexon ones, those are just idiotic 90% of the time)

(kenpokiller) #57

It’s like CSGO, they’re using MOBA terms there now… noobs

Anyhow remove ammo supplys on every corner :’)

(LiNkzr) #58

I just personally hate the fact that this game has to be balanced for both public play and competitive play, makes balancing infinitely harder since the whole game revolves around team work and if we take some of the aspects out of the public game many new people might find it off-putting, but on other hand it might add strategic depth to competitive games.

For example having multiple field ops in single team is never going to happen in competitive (Unless a rule) in my opinion, but you cannot reduce the cool down of air-strike, add more ammo packs because it would destroy balance in 8v8 where there might be multiple in use. Also I don’t mean we should try to reduce A-strike cool down or add more ammo packs or what ever, this is just my theory how it’s really hard to get balanced game for competitive and public when both are separated.

(yakcyll) #59

No offence, but I think you’re taking a completely wrong angle at this. Instead of meddling with basic mechanics like this (I’d say a lot of us take suiciding in stopwatch for granted, but I suppose that doesn’t work as an argument here), there should be work done with the game to try and make it less TDM focused in the first place. Individual skills always played an important role in conducting the flow of a match, but when your main game plan boils down to ‘take one key pick, overpower the rest and then focus on the objective’, then something’s not right.

I’m willing to bet that once more people realize direct ammo packs reduce cooldowns we’ll see a lot more FOps in comp. :>

(Szakalot) #60

Im not convinced that this is the case. It will definitely make regrouping harder too do, as you cant just tap out as a team everytime clock approaches 0. A SW game in which regrouping has to be done by actually falling back to your teammates would be an interesting take on things, esp. considering how fragger would have a hard time running away from the charging proxies:wink:

I just think that once /kill meta got established in ET, it got a little TOO easy to regroup as a team, and the game didnt punish you much for charging enemy spawn with a 4 sec nade, or making a positional mistake.

Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, games like CS do it well, but those are not SW based games. Games like ET/RtCW/ETQW have been such amazing and stand out games because they focus on teamplay instead of individual skill. You can have the best aimer in the world on your team, but a team with better teamwork will still beat you. Which is much more uncommon in ‘kill-trade’ based games like CoD and CS. Also people claiming that ‘suicide isn’t being punished’ don’t seem to realize that quite often selfkilling also means that you’re giving up (control over) a certain area,which can be the biggest punishment there is in any game if you don’t do it right… Selfkilling properly adds a layer of skill/experience/strategy/teamplay/decision making.

Seflkilling definitely adds a layer of skill, etc. to the game. But other approaches to spawnwaves could add a layer of skill as well, Im particularly a fan of Pixels take on waves being set by the first teammate dying. I believe you were a part of the discussion in the suicides thread.

Also I should rephrase that trying to turn into moba should be trying to turn DB’s SW into something it shouldn’t be. That’s why there is execution to cater those players. It’s not so much about skill, it’s about understanding that some basics are what makes or breaks a game(mode), and (imo) yes that means that people who’ve played at the top level in other games(and nowhere am I saying that that means ‘only ET players’) have a more valuable input than others simply because they’ve put in more effort,more depth and often more hours than their casual companions. Which is for the same reasons that I think it’s a joke that people who played the game(or even just mercs) are demanding/asking for changes after they’ve played said game or said merc for 2/3 hours. Or people who post ‘Wouldn’t recommend’ on steam reviews after 2 hours. Their words mean **** all imo because they simply didn’t put enough time in/don’t have enough experience with the game for their opinion to be well informed.

Im happy to be able to see past the pissing contest, cause man, it POURED:tongue:

Trust me, I understand how ET SW works, with /kill when it suits you, pushing the enemy to catch them on fullspawn, regrouping, trying to punish the enemy for /kill by nice spawncamp etc. I played more than my share of all three SW games, even though there wasnt nearly as much /kill in QW 6v6, mostly due to vehicles though.

This is a new game however, and I dont necessarily think that the exact same format that has been used for over a decade has to be copied over Dirty Bomb, which - after all - tries to be something new.

At least we both agree that symmetrical 30/30 spawns are ****, right?:wink: