How to make field ops more useful?

(Zenity) #21

I actually kind of like this. Maybe start with -10% damage so you are back to normal when you pick up an ammo pack (indicated with some kind of boosted state). This would make Fire Support quite essential, as foregoing one would weaken the whole team. It would also add a little element of “build up”.

I much prefer this over reduced start up ammunition, which seems a bit heavy handed to me (especially on pubs) and while of course it worked in RTCW, it doesn’t seem to fit the “generous” style of DB.

Aside from that I think ragnak is making good points about Fragger simply outclassing Fire Supports by too much. But even if he’s nerfed, I think the balance between Assault and Fire Support is always going to be tricky, as long as the only difference is that FS can provide extra ammo and Assault is slightly better at combat. As long as Assault and FS are too similar, it’s going to be difficult to justify both in a limited 5 man lineup.

(Mustang) #22

Damage buffs are a terrible idea, see Brink to understand why.

(Chux) #23

I’ve already mentioned it in another topic, but I’ll post here as well. Make nades for both Fagger and Nader ammo dependent as well as having cooldown. Same goes for Rhino in the future. Remove ammo crates or at least make the ammo deplete. Start players with one less magazine of ammo.

(titan) #24

what was wrong with it in brink? :o

(prophett) #25

This would definitely making the fops more viable.

(Zenity) #26

Yes but it would also be somewhat awkward and inconsistent with other abilities.

(Szakalot) #27

don’t like it either.

I’d welcome SMALL bonuses included with ammo packs. Say, FOP can have one augment from:

  • your ammo packs give players 5-10% more bullets in clip
  • your ammo packs give players 5-10% faster reload
  • your ammo packs give players 5-10% less cooldown (regardless of the direct-hit cooldown reduction)
(Zenity) #28

[QUOTE=Szakalot;527689]don’t like it either.

I’d welcome SMALL bonuses included with ammo packs. Say, FOP can have one augment from:

  • your ammo packs give players 5-10% more bullets in clip
  • your ammo packs give players 5-10% faster reload
  • your ammo packs give players 5-10% less cooldown (regardless of the direct-hit cooldown reduction)[/QUOTE]

I doubt that any of that is important enough to make people change their minds though.

(Humbugsen) #29

grenades and launcher are weapons, for me it’s more awkward that they’re considered abilities
since defibs can be used as weapons too, they could also have charges (3-5imo) and require ammo
mines too

just need to rework the hud aswell :stuck_out_tongue: (maybe a MMO style weapon HUD: a bar with all weapons/abilities where cooldowns and charges are shown)

i like this best. promotes teamplay, makes field ops a must and limits spam. what else could you want?

(spookify) #30

[QUOTE=prophett;527413]Best suggestion.

Being able to control the direction of the strike like you could in previous games would make the strike much more deadly.

ie; I normally go the long way around on final Chapel objective to ensure my strike blows across from the back of the bus to the back of the rock. If I go main and throw it it blows in a line back through their spawn (good for spawnkilling, not so good for clearing bus and rock).[/QUOTE]

The stupid noob line on the ground that tells you what direction the airstrike going to fall is a huge no no…

Arty’s dot is the same thing. You see that dot lets not stand on it…

IMO the LT’s should be just behind a Fragger in killing. Fragger should be a straight up killer with his HP and Nades and Gun. However Sky and Arty really arent that far behind. With a few tweaks Sky or Arty could dominate a slower Fragger.

A slightly faster cooldown on Skyhammer like 1 every 2 spawns.

In all honesty I wish there wasnt a killing class like a fragger… I wish there was a fragger class because I love nades but if you give him arty’s or Skys HP with one of there gun people might still choice him because of nades. Fire fights and team work might be a little better though…

Conclusion: Make the LT the killing class if SD wants one so bad. Give Fragger Ammo and two nades.

SD should strong considers limiting the Speed and HP difference and let the abilities and guns do the talking.

Example: (All these Classes Have the Same HP and Speed) (130hp?) (No noob lines or dots)
Fragger = Nade and Ammo
Arty = Air Strike Small Area and Ammo
Skyhammer = Air Strike Long Area and Ammo

You will have your Light Class, Medic Classes, LT (Killing), Sniper and Super Heavy

(Mustang) #31

After every spawn everyone would have a little circle jerk to get their buffs, basically everyone would be running buffs the entire time, making them a pointless addition and therefore just a waste of time and an annoyance.

(yakcyll) #32

After yesterday’s reactions of certain people, it seems to me that a lot of people still don’t know being directly hit with ammo packs reduces ability cooldowns by 15%. :slight_smile:

(Chux) #33

[QUOTE=Zenity;527688]Yes but it would also be somewhat awkward and inconsistent with other abilities.[/QUOTE]It’s really hard to figure something that everyone would agree to be the best solution. When thinking about the gameplay system in DB, I always look to ET for inspiration. I’m saying things should just be copied from ET, but certain design features there were quite clever and should be considered. Grenades had ammo, rifle grenades had ammo, all heavy weapons also had ammo as well as some being restricted with charge consumption. But I kind of liked the single charge bar more compared to the current ability independent cooldown system. It was always a “balancing act” with powers, should you give out ammo right now and risk being late with airstike or arty deployment. Shoot rifle grenades but be unable to repair stuff, etc. And global restrictions were also neat, there was a limited amount of mines the enter team cold plat at any given point so despite having 4-5 engineers, if a mine limit was lets say 3, then that it. Same goes for arty an airstrike, only a limited volume of fire could be deployed at once, preventing ability spam despite the number of characters.

DB is trying to oversimplify things a bit too much I’m afraid. I always hear the devs comment “oh people might not understand it at first” Well, whats to the point of playing if everything is as clear as day after 5 mins and there was nothing new to learn or to master? You could play ET for a month and then figure out sometinh new you didn know before. I know the times have changed and the game is trying to be accessible to wide audience, but come on it’s too much dumbed down already. If people have a hard time keeping track of only 2 personal parameters (like ammo and cooldown, disregarding any other team dependencies) for a certain ability, then go play something else cause this is as watered down as it can get which is way it doesnt work like it should.

(Szakalot) #34

if you could only give one buff per life this would work better imo.

but i don tlike buffs either, it becomes too much of a WoW raid or sth

(Humbugsen) #35

[QUOTE=Chux;527799]
DB is trying to oversimplify things a bit too much I’m afraid. I always hear the devs comment “oh people might not understand it at first” Well, whats to the point of playing if everything is as clear as day after 5 mins and there was nothing new to learn or to master? You could play ET for a month and then figure out sometinh new you didn know before. I know the times have changed and the game is trying to be accessible to wide audience, but come on it’s too much dumbed down already. If people have a hard time keeping track of only 2 personal parameters (like ammo and cooldown, disregarding any other team dependencies) for a certain ability, then go play something else cause this is as watered down as it can get which is way it doesnt work like it should.[/QUOTE]

People don’t like easy games anyway, dota2 proofs it. Even bots on easy difficulty will totally destroy you, when you start dota.
For a wide audience, you need solid working, enjoyable mechanics and not easy mechanics.

[QUOTE=Szakalot;527809]if you could only give one buff per life this would work better imo.

but i don tlike buffs either, it becomes too much of a WoW raid or sth[/QUOTE]

yep, too much power ranger stuff…
just keep it oldschool
weapons require ammo (nades, mines, launcher, defib etc.)
abilities have cooldown (sensor, ammo/health packs etc.)

add a small ammo symbol next to weapon “abilities”
add a small watch symbol next to cooldown abilities
and everything is obvious and logical and the fire supports are needed. It also discourages spam, and encourages more tactical use of “abilities”

to prevent endless nadespam, play around with the max nade limit (fragger only gets 1 grenade per ammo pack, max limit 2 for example) and balance the ammo pack cooldown accordingly.
I don’t see anything negative about this? It worked fine in ET aswell, some systems were just perfect in ET so please Splash Damage just copy them!!!

(ARTiER) #36

(Szakalot) #37

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;527816]
to prevent endless nadespam, play around with the max nade limit (fragger only gets 1 grenade per ammo pack, max limit 2 for example) and balance the ammo pack cooldown accordingly.
I don’t see anything negative about this? It worked fine in ET aswell, some systems were just perfect in ET so please Splash Damage just copy them!!![/QUOTE]

I don’t like it.

Nader can fire 4 nades in succession and thats it ? wait for FOPS? Or nader has constant fop support and can spam a choke indefinitely?

Nades in ET had very small RoF and also required the charge bar (cooldown). I don’t see how you can transition this into DB, a different game imo.

(Humbugsen) #38

[QUOTE=Szakalot;527821]I don’t like it.

Nader can fire 4 nades in succession and thats it ? wait for FOPS? Or nader has constant fop support and can spam a choke indefinitely?

Nades in ET had very small RoF and also required the charge bar (cooldown). I don’t see how you can transition this into DB, a different game imo.[/QUOTE]

Nader can fire 4 nades in succession and thats it? : yes more focus on gunplay
wait for FOPS?: yes more focus on teamplay
Or nader has constant fop support and can spam a choke indefinitely?: not indefinitely because of ammo pack cooldown, but for a while yes. But that takes 2 people of which 1 would otherwise be a fragger. fragger and nader can currently spam a chokepoint forever without any support.

(Szakalot) #39

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;527823]Nader can fire 4 nades in succession and thats it? : yes more focus on gunplay
wait for FOPS?: yes more focus on teamplay
Or nader has constant fop support and can spam a choke indefinitely?: not indefinitely because of ammo pack cooldown, but for a while yes. But that takes 2 people of which 1 would otherwise be a fragger. fragger and nader can currently spam a chokepoint forever without any support.[/QUOTE]

not really forever, single player’s nades run out pretty quickly, and fragger is better off saving his nades for instagib.

Definitely don’t want 3 fopses and 2 naders spamming the only two exits on underground. I don’t think the game can handle such a mechanic.

(Humbugsen) #40

[QUOTE=Szakalot;527824]not really forever, single player’s nades run out pretty quickly, and fragger is better off saving his nades for instagib.

Definitely don’t want 3 fopses and 2 naders spamming the only two exits on underground. I don’t think the game can handle such a mechanic.[/QUOTE]

I don’t really see this happening, if it would you could still tweak numbers on ammo cooldown or add a merc limit or whatever.
Also doesn’t really sound uncounterable, if one of them dies somehow, they’re screwed without any medic. And i guess there should be 3 exits anyway ^^