How to extract Red-Eye from the useless bin

(JJMAJR) #41

Here’s a Redeye build I thought up of:
Saiga 12
Smjuth & Whetsman
Beckhill Combat Knife
Enigma
Untrackable
Spares

FYI I made a reference to the fact that the Saiga 12 is used in every MGS4 BB walkthroughs. Can’t live without it. The tradeoff for the Saiga would be low range.

EDIT: Changed above loadout since two primaries aren’t in it anymore.

Also…

FEL-IX
K-121
Beckhill Combat Knife
Guardian Angel
Bomb Squad
Pineapple Juggler

This is a reference to the heavy weapons Solid Snake carries. Obviously, it’s a bit too powerful, but I like the idea of some loadout cards carrying two primary weapons.

(bizarreRectangle) #42

I kind of have a question about smokes. Where do you put smokes if you want to effect enemies? How do you react in certain scenarios? And throwing smoke to “force the right situtation”.

(GottaBeGreg) #43

And now who is making assumptions about whos playstyle? If I can see that my team needs cover I am going to prioritize covering them. However, I can also recognize the fact that if you are in a sniper position covering them, popping peeking heads and spotting enemies, all the whilst you are unable to be stopped/sniped easily then you are equally as valuable. And simply because you are trying to play a medium to long range sniper in close range and his ability isn’t working out for you doesnt mean his ability needs to be changed. Going back to the OP, you want to make the smoke basically become useless to sniper Redeyes who are using him in his intended way through making him unable to sit in his own smoke and shoot out. You want to make the smoke become some kind of close range knife only mosh pit or a really crappy molotov in terms of area denial. Both of these things are NOTHING TO DO WITH REDEYES PLAYSTYLE.

Sure. Redeye is not made new player friendly. But he doesnt have to be. He isnt given out straight away and for the people who go out of their way to but him they should probably know what they are getting into.

Simply placing a smoke in a choke point is not always a good idea, and if it was that easy then you would make Redeye into an absolute essential on every team ever, and we dont need another Fragger (Oh wait, Thunder now too. We might actually get a choice between two depending on how good his LMG is). Blinding your entire teams view of a choke point isnt a good idea funnily enough. As aforementioned, blocking a scopes view of your team is.
I will smoke if I see that my team needs cover, however, there are few scenarios in which they do, as I realise that the enemy team isnt the only one who will be blinded by the smoke. I have already covered these scenarios and I dont care to go over them again.

You dont seem to realise that being an extremely hard to hit long range head popper spotting for teammates from the safety of range and smoke is extremely helpful to the team also.

I didnt realise you played pinkeye though. I was under the impression you were using his good gun (the Grandeur). Considering its his exclusive and it has serious untapped potential I think you should try that out. Means you can more easily move to a close range and retain lethality. Get good with the Grandeur and then tell me hes useless, because I can assure you that he isnt.

(Lumi) #44

If you want to affect enemies, you put the smoke right in their faces. The best example would be as attacker on chapel at the final EV push, you just throw it to that uphill on the right of the EV’s destination, where most defenders will go up. Try to block areas where only the opposing team would go through spawning. Another example would be as attacker on Trainyard, to put it between the broken wall on the other side of the tracks from the turret building.

Now as to how to react in certain scenarios. Which scenarios? Ask for something concrete if you want a concrete answer, please.

Finally, I don’t really see how you could force the right situation with a smoke. AS I address it in my original post, there is no real dissuasive mechanic to the smoke, hence you can’t “force” anything. Maybe you can “suggest” a situation. Even the examples given here to affect the opponents is dependent on their reticence to pass the smoke, which 95% of experience players do anyway.

So in the end, the smoke is an annoyance tool, but not an enforcing tool such as the Molotov for instance. Although it takes a time for people to adapt I’m seeing more and more people using explosives on the Molotov, but since Red-Eye came out I’ve barely seen the smoke been exploded away. Usually, people don’t bother removing it. Especially since one can not always know if it is an ally or enemy smoke (except by checking the team roosters).

So tough ability to make to work in your advantage, but this is how I use it at least. Hope this helps.

(Lumi) #45

@GottaBeGreg

I refuse to believe that Red-Eye’s intended way of playing is to sit in his smoke. That’s just ridiculous. Or did the military invent smokes for snipers to sit in? Ehm, nope. They did it to cover approaches and confuse the enemy.

Seriously, intended for snipers to sit in… I need to find my anti bullshit medicine… Now where did I leave that one?

(WaffleMonster) #46

Sitting in the smoke as a redeye is one of the best ways to play him. It prevents you from getting counter sniped and allows you to take up positions without hard cover. Placing smoke in between you and the enemy can also work if you are trying to protect friendlies repairing the ev. Smoking the enemy is generally a bad idea as it prevents the rest of your team from shooting at the enemy.

Drawing comparisons to real life on how a game mechanic works is generally a bad idea. Just because the military invented smoke to cover approaches and confuse the enemy, it doesn’t mean that smoke is designed for this use in this game. Creating artificial cover in dirty bomb to cover an approach is not needed due to the long ttk, fast movement and the map design. Also the way snipers tend to operate in video games is utterly different to real life and this is one of the biggest traps that players new to sniping fall into.

(Lumi) #47

[quote=“WaffleMonster;113707”]Sitting in the smoke as a redeye is one of the best ways to play him. It prevents you from getting counter sniped and allows you to take up positions without hard cover. Placing smoke in between you and the enemy can also work if you are trying to protect friendlies repairing the ev. Smoking the enemy is generally a bad idea as it prevents the rest of your team from shooting at the enemy.

Drawing comparisons to real life on how a game mechanic works is generally a bad idea. Just because the military invented smoke to cover approaches and confuse the enemy, it doesn’t mean that smoke is designed for this use in this game. Creating artificial cover in dirty bomb to cover an approach is not needed due to the long ttk, fast movement and the map design. Also the way snipers tend to operate in video games is utterly different to real life and this is one of the biggest traps that players new to sniping fall into.[/quote]

Actually, when you smoke the enemy, you couple it with the infrared ability, providing your team with info on where the enemy is inside the smoke. It doesn’t prevent your team to shoot the enemy, on the contrary.

Agreed, reality and games are two separate things, yet I don’t assume that DB’s smoke was intended as a sniper blanket. The smoke is supposed to be much more than that. Would be interesting though to get some devs’ input on this, but as they are never around it really is up to our interpretation…

(GottaBeGreg) #48

Im not saying its his only use, Im saying its one of his best uses. Who cares if its not what was intended when it was made in the real world, it works well and doesnt hinder your team. This conversation is going nowhere and I no longer feel the need to converse with you. Believe as you will. Redeye is not useless, but you can keep deluding yourself if that is what you wish.

(Lumi) #49

Thanks for dropping the conversation. It’s annoying to talk to someone so blinded by their opinion that they think other people are delusional. Now let’s give room to people who actually have something to say other than insult me on my opinions.

(WaffleMonster) #50

[quote=“Lumi;113708”][quote=“WaffleMonster;113707”]Sitting in the smoke as a redeye is one of the best ways to play him. It prevents you from getting counter sniped and allows you to take up positions without hard cover. Placing smoke in between you and the enemy can also work if you are trying to protect friendlies repairing the ev. Smoking the enemy is generally a bad idea as it prevents the rest of your team from shooting at the enemy.

Drawing comparisons to real life on how a game mechanic works is generally a bad idea. Just because the military invented smoke to cover approaches and confuse the enemy, it doesn’t mean that smoke is designed for this use in this game. Creating artificial cover in dirty bomb to cover an approach is not needed due to the long ttk, fast movement and the map design. Also the way snipers tend to operate in video games is utterly different to real life and this is one of the biggest traps that players new to sniping fall into.[/quote]

Actually, when you smoke the enemy, you couple it with the infrared ability, providing your team with info on where the enemy is inside the smoke. It doesn’t prevent your team to shoot the enemy, on the contrary.

Agreed, reality and games are two separate things, yet I don’t assume that DB’s smoke was intended as a sniper blanket. The smoke is supposed to be much more than that. Would be interesting though to get some devs’ input on this, but as they are never around it really is up to our interpretation…[/quote]

The info you get from a friendly redeye using his IR is just poor. You can’t actually see the bodies of the enemy and it’s challenging to shoot at them, especially at there head. I’ve lost a number of games recently where a friendly redeye has thrown smoke at the enemy and prevented me from killing my opponents quickly and efficiently.

At the moment using the smoke as a sniper blanket is super strong. It prevents the enemy from countering you and prevents you from getting countersniped by sparks or vassili. Combined with the pdp, a redeye who knows what they are doing is practically impossible to play against.

(SaulWolfden) #51

The smoke is both cover and a psychological weapon, you don’t have to throw it to use as cover, you can throw it as a distraction for instance to give people the wrong impression someone is there or someone is going that way when nobody is.

(Lumi) #52

@WaffleMonster

You’re right, I actually always thought it to be a bit dull that they just copied the heartbeat sensor system from Vassili to Red-Eye, I would have preferred to show the outlines tom y allies…

@SaulWolfden

Unfortunately, the smoke is only a psychological weapon for newcomers. Every experienced player knows it’s not to be feared and that one is better when going through than staying behind it… This being my original point btw.

(bizarreRectangle) #53

Thanks for dropping the conversation. It’s annoying to talk to someone so blinded by their opinion that they think other people are delusional. Now let’s give room to people who actually have something to say other than insult me on my opinions.[/quote]

Thing is you were being a bit of a prick in that discussion. You were kind of the one mixing in some insults and your opinions and pissing him off. Greg was the one trying to drag the conversation along while you were dragging it down. You could’ve dropped it any time.

I think using smoke on yourself for a sniper position is fine. As long as you’re not really near teammates. When I encounter these red eye’s I stay away since there’s no way I can counter them. Aiming down sights in infa red vision really throws off my aim a lot. I guess I’ll just get used to it.

I agree that the spotting through smoke doesn’t help allies at all, it’s hard to gauge where the enemy’s bodies are through the smoke. It’s a hinderance to smoke people’s faces. Smoking objectives is very useful though, mainly objectives you have to complete (except destroying the ev).

Sometimes your team NEEDS the cover too, like @WaffleMonster said, smoking the space between you and an enemy while guarding a friendly who needs to be protected is very helpful. Your teammates don’t always have to be shooting. So you can throw smoke in the doorway or whatever main sightline the enemy has to give your friends some cover. You just have to know when your team needs to be shooting and when they need protection. You can also shoot through that smoke to get people away from the smoke.

To be honest there are plenty of ways to use smoke. The only problem I have with red eye is my team making use of that.

(SaulWolfden) #54

@Lumi I didn’t say that they would avoid it, merely make a false assumption that someone is near it, at it, or using it as cover when they aren’t.

(JJMAJR) #55

When playing the Dreiss Redeye, I found that he tends to be extremely hard to play. The smoke only serves to make myself more vulnerable and the only real use I have with the class is through the MG turrets.

Also, shotguns rape Deadeye too easily. What if enemies spotted in the smoke end up having some of the debuffs that @Lumi asked for? Nothing extreme like “no weapons pls” or a shitty DoT effect, but nothing horribly useless either. Because, if enemies have a penalty for being spotted in Redeye’s vision, then the smokes would be a much more effective deterrent while remaining useful for people who use sniper rifles.

Something like, if an enemy is spotted in Redeye’s smoke, they get a damage taken multiplier of x1.125 and a damage dealt multiplier of x8/9 or something similar. This would make Dreiss Redeyes less vulnerable to shotguns.

Also, there should be a distance indicator over spotted targets. I can’t count the number of times that I thought an enemy was several feet away when really it’s just around the corner.

(Lumi) #56

[quote=“JJMAJR;113844”]

Something like, if an enemy is spotted in Redeye’s smoke, they get a damage taken multiplier of x1.125 and a damage dealt multiplier of x8/9 or something similar. This would make Dreiss Redeyes less vulnerable to shotguns.[/quote]

On paper they sound like minor useful changes, but in practice, how is a new player going to be aware that while spotted in a smoke (those exact conditions) he/she will suffer more damage when shot. I mean it would be hard for even an experienced player to notice 12.55 increase in damage.

If some changes are implemented they need two things: to be visual and intuitive.

(Szakalot) #57

i still haven’t seen a convincing argument as to why any change is needed. To be honest redeye almost feels overbuffed with how thick the smoke is and how long IR can work and detect you for (4 sec detection no matter what you do is HUGE)

(JJMAJR) #58

[quote=“Lumi;113851”][quote=“JJMAJR;113844”]

Something like, if an enemy is spotted in Redeye’s smoke, they get a damage taken multiplier of x1.125 and a damage dealt multiplier of x8/9 or something similar. This would make Dreiss Redeyes less vulnerable to shotguns.[/quote]

On paper they sound like minor useful changes, but in practice, how is a new player going to be aware that while spotted in a smoke (those exact conditions) he/she will suffer more damage when shot. I mean it would be hard for even an experienced player to notice 12.55 increase in damage.

If some changes are implemented they need two things: to be visual and intuitive. [/quote]

Or, it could be right in the manual, and in the description of Redeye’s ability.

This game is supposed to be balanced at the high level anyways.

(JJMAJR) #59

-Dreiss+Smoke=piece of godforsaken shit.
-Shotguns are very strong against Redeye.
-Redeye’s only use for smoke is to cover himself or his team from enemy fire.
-The above is negated with bombs.
-The spotter ability is shit as it doesn’t let players see what’s really going on, or gives no useful information whatsoever.

(Szakalot) #60

can’t agree with much of what you say.

Dreiss is crap though, don’t use it. both PDP and grandeur are a lot better

Redeye’s smoke is one of the most versatile ability in the entire game!

it takes quite a lot of bombs to make the smoke disappear, pretty much only nader can counter it and she has to spend a lot of resources

Spotting ability is amazing. If you know the map well, you can easily tell where exactly the opponent is. the icon’s moving speed also reveals how far the opponent is.