How to extract Red-Eye from the useless bin

(Jesus) #21

[quote=“Lumi;20285”]
So I believe we need to add a dissuasion mechanic to the smoke and I came up with two distinct ideas:
First, we could give the smoke a coughing effect making it so that mercs can’t shoot while in a smoke, just use their melee, this would include allies and Red-Eye, except mercs with breathing apparatuses such as Stoker and Phoenix. This would make people think twice before entering a smoke and it would have a half way area denial effect.

The second option would not impede shooting, but it would slowly ship down at health of mercs without breathing apparatuses. Something in the order of 10HP per second. Small amount of damage, but not a gratuitous passing through anymore. This would also make the smoke more ally friendly (in servers without friendly fire) as the enemies would have a disadvantage compared to allies.

Finally, one last thought on how to improve Red-Eye: make the smoke’s outline visible while using his infrared sensor. Countless times has my smoke been removed by explosives or the time ran out and I didn’t notice because with the Eye on there is no change visible…

What do you think?[/quote]

Well i think both of your option are quite too overpowered, preventing people to shoot ? come on dont tell me you dont see a major fail on that i thought of something else while reading your thing instead of preventing them to shoot, you make the spread of the weapon increase a lot while in the smoke and you prevent ADS, like this you would not be able to accuratly shoot in it, which is quite logic, but you would still be able to try your luck and not die by pray and spraying

(Lumi) #22

[quote=“Jesus;112250”][quote=“Lumi;20285”]
So I believe we need to add a dissuasion mechanic to the smoke and I came up with two distinct ideas:
First, we could give the smoke a coughing effect making it so that mercs can’t shoot while in a smoke, just use their melee, this would include allies and Red-Eye, except mercs with breathing apparatuses such as Stoker and Phoenix. This would make people think twice before entering a smoke and it would have a half way area denial effect.

The second option would not impede shooting, but it would slowly ship down at health of mercs without breathing apparatuses. Something in the order of 10HP per second. Small amount of damage, but not a gratuitous passing through anymore. This would also make the smoke more ally friendly (in servers without friendly fire) as the enemies would have a disadvantage compared to allies.

Finally, one last thought on how to improve Red-Eye: make the smoke’s outline visible while using his infrared sensor. Countless times has my smoke been removed by explosives or the time ran out and I didn’t notice because with the Eye on there is no change visible…

What do you think?[/quote]

Well i think both of your option are quite too overpowered, preventing people to shoot ? come on dont tell me you dont see a major fail on that i thought of something else while reading your thing instead of preventing them to shoot, you make the spread of the weapon increase a lot while in the smoke and you prevent ADS, like this you would not be able to accuratly shoot in it, which is quite logic, but you would still be able to try your luck and not die by pray and spraying
[/quote]

Well, we’ve kinda discussed this and maybe a mechanic where you couldn’t use two handed weapons, such as to be able to cover your face with one hand would be best. As impeding ADS just doesn’t change much on the accuracy of what’s right in front of your face. Increasing spread also just seems artificial and many new players wouldn’t get that effect immediately.

It has to both be comprehensible and a small dissuasive mechanic. This way entering a smoke doesn’t become an automatism. You have to way the pro and cons.

Regarding the damage it would be something in the order of 5HP per second. So not a lot, but enough to make you think twice.

(Szakalot) #23

this is aninteresting discussion but for a whole new ability. smoke is in a good spot now

(bizarreRectangle) #24

2 smokes is just no. Covering the whole place with smoke could be pretty cool but it’s really unneeded. I don’t think there needs to be much of a dissuasive effect, when you enter smoke redeye can still shoot you but you won’t see where. One thing that DOES encourage entering the smoke is that when you’re in the smoke, you can see the outlines of everyone in their with you, including the redeye. If this is changed, people won’t want to enter smoke as much.

(Lumi) #25

@bizarreRectangle

would be cool if they could remove the outlines, but I believe that’s an engine limitation and hence it will never happen…

(SaulWolfden) #26

Red Eye swaps between being my 3rd and 4th most played merc (Bushwhacker sometimes overtakes him), he has the third most kills for me as well. I’d only really say it’s his weapons that would matter with buffing him if he’d be buffed, either way, I think he should remain a high skill ceiling merc, not every merc needs to be simple or easy to play.

(JJMAJR) #27

I am too lazy to read through all this, so what are the current suggestions for Redeye buffs?

Ideas I seen so far:
-Redeye tagging enemies in smoke, like my paint grenade on my overblown class idea.
-The original post.

Please, everyone, use the enter key. Double space your posts.

(Phantombrotherhood) #28

He already has a use, if you would use him properly, you’d notice he’s a decent counter to phantom, his smoke is perfectly fine if you don’t just toss it willy nilly, imo he’s fine where he’s at, I see him frequently on the comp level, and before you cry about him being useless in pubs, try using him for his intended purpose and actually learn him, I gave him a try and got 3-4 times the kills I ever did with Vassili because he’s just a better sniper overall.

(JJMAJR) #29

“He’s a decent counter to Phantom”
The thing is, phantom’s shitty in comp. He’s only good in pub stomping.

(Lumi) #30

Any merc is a good Phantom counter. That’s not a valid argument. And maybe you just didn’t master Vassili yet? Finally you’re completely besides my point. I’m not saying that he’s useless as in “I don’t get kills with him” I’m saying that his smoke has no penalty for passing through it. Granted during that half second when you’re in it, Red-Eye has the advanatgae, but once you’re out, Red-Eye is at a disadvantage. Finally it’s as annoying to allies than to enemies. Those are my grievances.

(GottaBeGreg) #31

The smoke isn’t made to shut down the place that it placed in, it is made to shut down a line of sight. If you want something to shutdown a place then go for Stoker, but if you want complete coverage of a line of sight for you and your team, the current Redeye is your man.

Redeye requires a different playstyle that can either completely ignore the team or need to be completely in sync with the team, and if you believe him to be useless then a) your doing it wrong and b) simply don’t use him.

(streetwiseSailboat) #32

[quote=“GottaBeGreg;112807”]
Redeye requires a different playstyle that can either completely ignore the team or need to be completely in sync with the team, and if you believe him to be useless then a) your doing it wrong and b) simply don’t use him.[/quote]

I concur.

(Lumi) #33

Then teach me oh master! Where do you put your smokes and what are the reasons for it. Give me a rundown on every map. I’d gladly hear where it actually comes in handy.

(GottaBeGreg) #34

Sarcasm is really not required, and its not limited to any particular areas. Shutting down any long range of sight that the enemy team has a scope on is instantly a big help to the team. Then there is planting any objective or any area specific type of obj eg planting, defusing, delivering, repairing etc. You can place it down in any sniper position and become a sniper that is much harder to be out sniped. There is plenty you can do with it if you just open up your mind and stop treating it like it needs to be area denial. Cause it ain’t. Its team and self cover.

If you intend to be a prick with your responses to me then don’t bother replying to me, because the previous response oozed a feeling of prick.

(Lumi) #35

@GottaBeGreg

Well, if you feel like having the right of judging how I’m using Red-Eye you must be a master at using him. If you perceived sarcasm it’s because you’re not and then you have no right to judge my way of using him. Don’t be a prick to others if you can’t handle it yourself.

Now every single thing you mentioned is either to counter a Vassili, so very limited, or to cover objectives. If there is no Vassili this amounts to a couple of situations per game where the smoke would be useful, and you’re exactly pressing on my point: the rest of the time there is no use for the smoke, except for it being a mild annoyance to enemies and a huge one to allies, especially when thrown by inexperienced Red-Eye players.

Whenever I see a Red-Eye on my team I feel like it will be a match where the enemy has an extra player. I’m sorry but that is just how most games end out. Unfortunately I never had the please to have your Red-Eye skill on my team, so I can only base my assumptions on the 99% of shit Red-Eye players I encountered. Giving the smoke something that your team would look for is in my opinion needed. Otherwise Red-Eye isn’t just a high skill/high reward merc but also a low skill/high penalty merc, instead of other mercs who are merely low skill/low reward.

(WaffleMonster) #36

Just like snipers in any game, redeye is a noob magnet and that’s why he seems useless in pubs.
I’ve come across a number of good redeye’s in MM and scrims and he’s absolutely terrifying and definitely one of the best mercs in the game right now. He is also a great counter to sparks.

(GottaBeGreg) #37

Redeye is about forcing the right situation for the smoke and as I said, another one of those situations is covering your own sniper position. This not only protects you from enemy fire (all mercs, not just vasilli) but also its a sniper position, meaning your team is nowhere near the smoke to get distrupted by it. If you are placing your smoke stupidly and in a place where all it does is hinder the two teams equally then yeh, you would want to make it have some additional distruption to the smoke. But if you are placing it correctly both of these things are completely unnessecary. You are the only person on your team who should, in most favourable/correct scenarios will be shooting through your smoke. Redeye is not useless in any way of thinking, and these two changes are completely unnessecary and not where he needs his love to be placed. These changes would only make it so that this high skill merc becomes more suspectable to new players just randomly throwing their smoke wherever they want whenever their cooldown comes back.

I only judge your usage of Redeye from the scenarios in which you are describing, and these scenarios are the exact kind of things you delibrately work to not get into throughout the game. You dont put your vasilli on the front lines so he can be Proxy rushed with a shotgun, why would you put your Redeye there instead? He isnt a close range merc, thats not where he belongs.

I have had Redeye since he was first added in and seen the few good Redeye players as they have passed through, and they didnt succeed because of their aim, they succeeded because they played smart and forced the correct scenario everytime, both for them and their team. This puts Redeye in an inviting state for higher level players as he is basically a challenge to use and therefore more rewarding to do well with. Top fragging as Redeye sure feels alot better than top fragging as Fragger.

(Lumi) #38

@GottaBeGreg

Ok, now I get where you’re coming from. You’re the layback sniper. Sticking away from the action. You’re the Red-Eye, thinking the smoke is useful, but only since you’re using it for yourself. You insist in saying that the smoke is in a good spot and that it doesn’t need a change, but that’s just because you don’t use the smoke in a team advantaging situation, granted right now the options in which it would help your team and not only yourself are limited (one reason why I’m pushing for additional changes).

I’m the aggressive Sniper, if I play Vassili, I’ll get those long range shots, but you’ll see me get my hand dirty and kill that engineer behind the EV close range with my Tolen. I can’t stand seeing things not getting done and I need to intervene when my teammates are lacking. When playing Red-Eye, I never put the smoke right on my face from a sniping position (although I only play Red-Eye with the PDP) as I believe it to be a waste of a tactically positioned smoke. You’ll see my smoke in choke points around the map, making people think twice before crossing it.

So yeah, we play Red-Eye completely differently. I’m not saying your way is wrong or my way is right. As a matter of fact I believe that both approaches are alright. Yet, I feel that there should be more versatility to the smoke. I refuse to believe that the smoke is just a sniper camouflage for me to use on myself. And consequently, the tactical melee smoke positioning option being few, I wish there could be something else to guide less tactically minded player’s hands as to where to position them and in order to provide your allies with an edge and not just another hindrance.

(JJMAJR) #39

Okay, so it’s agreed that there is more than one way to play Redeye, one style being the classic CS style, where the other it’s more along the lines of self-benefit.

What about the Dreiss Redeye builds? Redeye has more than sniper rifles, you know.

EDIT: Meant ----ing CS, as in Counter Strike. Holy ---- that’s stupid of me, especially considering that CW means containment war in this fandom.

Contract Wars… why did I mix that in this thread.

(Lumi) #40

[quote=“JJMAJR;113555”]Okay, so it’s agreed that there is more than one way to play Redeye, one style being the classic CW style, where the other it’s more along the lines of self-benefit.

What about the Dreiss Redeye builds? Redeye has more than sniper rifles, you know.[/quote]

You’re right, especially when not sniping a smoke in close quarters situation should be useful to your team rather than a hindrance.