How to extract Red-Eye from the useless bin

(Lumi) #1

So I was thinking (again) why Red-Eye is barely used and the usual came up: high-skill/low reward, etc.

And then I asked myself what would make me play Red-Eye, rather than look at him and then go for Vassili instead or any other merc.

These were my thoughts:

First of all there is a need for dissuasion in the smoke, that the current smoke barely has. The initial effect, when the merc came out, in which people were scared from the smoke is gone and now everyone just rushes it and it usually is more an annoyance to your team than anything else. The usefulness of the smoke is very situational.

So I believe we need to add a dissuasion mechanic to the smoke and I came up with two distinct ideas:
First, we could give the smoke a coughing effect making it so that mercs can’t shoot while in a smoke, just use their melee, this would include allies and Red-Eye, except mercs with breathing apparatuses such as Stoker and Phoenix. This would make people think twice before entering a smoke and it would have a half way area denial effect.

The second option would not impede shooting, but it would slowly ship down at health of mercs without breathing apparatuses. Something in the order of 10HP per second. Small amount of damage, but not a gratuitous passing through anymore. This would also make the smoke more ally friendly (in servers without friendly fire) as the enemies would have a disadvantage compared to allies.

I believe either one of the options would add some more interest to Red-Eye and make his smoke more of a desired thing to be used. With every other merc I tend to fire my ability as soon as it is available, but with Red-Eye, the cooldown passes two to three times before I actually use the smoke since I don’t want to use it in a negative way to my team.

Finally, one last thought on how to improve Red-Eye: make the smoke’s outline visible while using his infrared sensor. Countless times has my smoke been removed by explosives or the time ran out and I didn’t notice because with the Eye on there is no change visible…

What do you think?

(magnanimousMagician) #2

As I see it the big picture issue is that smoke screens aren’t as naturally useful in twitch shooters as they are in tactical style titles. COD has smoke, for instance, and it is almost never seen. Whereas in Insurgency they are essential.

So Redeye has the infrared ability to make his smoke more useful. Unfortunately it turns out that the infrared effect has eclipsed the tactical utility of the smoke, to the point that Redeyes mostly use it to help them win duels.

So one good thing about both of your ideas is that they reorient the smoke back towards its original (and thematic) role as a tactical tool for the team.

But I think the core of the smoke fantasy is as a line of sight blocker, not as an area clear or deterrent. The problem with that as you mention is that so often blocking line of sight hampers rather than helps. Dirty Bomb is unlike Insurgency, where certain sightlines are far more important for your enemy than they are for you.

So it’s a hard problem. You can’t really buff the duration or cooldown, since that would only encourage the use as a personal shield. Buffing the area of effect is safer in that respect, but then you make things even more obnoxious for your teammates…

Therefore I suggest the following: when Redeye hits an enemy with his thermal active, they are revealed for a few seconds ala Widowmaker’s ability in Overwatch (wall hacks). Alternatively you could give his hits the Vasilli spotting effect. Gives him some recon flavor, helps him spot for his team, and also makes the smoke less of a downside for his allies, encouraging use as a LOS blocker.

Edit: Since learned that Redeye already does motion sensor type spotting with his eye. Maybe buff the duration or a buff to ease of use.

(RyePanda) #3

Seems to go too far. I mean, a team of 6 redeyes would be unbearable. I like the showing the outline of the smoke idea though.

(Lumi) #4

@magnanimousMagician

You’re totally right on the duality between tactical and fast past games and their need for smokes. Yet I don’t think the issue with Red-Eye is his lack of spotting ability, or the way it works. The smoke is a tool that is barely used as opposed to other abilities where one feels like the cooldown cannot count down fast enough. With Red-Eye, most of the time I feel like using the smoke, it’s available. I wish it would become so desirable that I would be bothered by the cooldown, just as for Stoker’s Molotov for instance.

[quote=“RyePanda;110573”]Seems to go too far. I mean, a team of 6 redeyes would be unbearable. I like the showing the outline of the smoke idea though.
[/quote]

I doubt that many players own Red-Eye, and even so any full team of any merc is a pain in the butt. It cannot be used as an argument against the improvement of a single merc. Otherwise many many mercs would have to be nerfed to death because of that stacking possibility. Especially the Skyhammer airstrike ballet on EV missions…

Regarding the outline it’s something that has been bugging me for some time, but starting a thread for it alone wasn’t really enough imo. So I added it here, but it should have been there from the start. It’s a quite obvious requirement.

(magnanimousMagician) #5

Lumi, I’m saying give him the ability to “tag” enemies, so that allies can shoot them through his smoke. It’s also possible (hard to tell) that you could simply allow redeye’s allies to see through his smoke without breaking the game. Not sure on that one… could be gamebreaking if it turns out to be too good. The tagging idea is a compromise to nudge him in that direction w/ less risk.

(Bottlecaps) #6

I don’t know about the HP idea Lumi. I play Red Eye a lot, he’s my second most played merc and on the way to becoming my most played merc ( 35 hours). He’s definitely one of the “under-powered” mercenaries and I agree with you that the Smoke ability is VERY situational but the last thing I want is people to scream that he’s OP if the smoke gets some kind of damage ability.
The purpose of the smoke is to break the line of sight. Anything that can increase that ability, I’m all for.
I’m also in favor(kinda) of a permanent tag as magnanimous suggested. Something along the lines to tag a certain enemy player by pressing E. This tag can last the entire life until either the Red Eye dies or until the tagged player dies. And only one tag can be applied at a time. This way, Red Eye can tag a priority target such a medic or rhino, or whatever the team wants. However, this idea can be abused so I’m still a skeptic about it.

(Lumi) #7

Okay, so right now, Red-Eye’s ability tags enemies such as a heartbeat sensor, but it’s quite variable. Sometimes I tag three enemies instantaneously and sometimes it takes forever to tag a single one. The tagging is temporary, just like the heartbeat sensor.

@Bottlecaps

I appreciate your input. Glad to see that someone out there actually mains (almost) Red-Eye. I’m also more inclined towards the inability to shoot in the smoke rather than the damage, but if it would deal damage it would have to be little amount, not akin a Molotov for sure. Something that would kill you if you’d stay in the smoke for the full duration of it, and even still, only light mercs. So definitely nothing OP.

(Bottlecaps) #8

@Lumi He’s my favorite merc :slight_smile:
Hmm the idea of disabling weapon usage is interesting. It would make the smoke a area-of-denial ability more so than a line-of-sight ability. It would also make it so that Red Eye can’t smoke camp. It’s interesting but it certainly can shake things up in how to play as Red Eye. Would this ability affect teammates? If so then I think it’s a bad idea. The tactic of covering EV repair or while planting/defusing etc. with smoke could be rendered useless.

(GottaBeGreg) #9

Im sorry but this discussion is flawed from the beginning. I don’t know if its just my aim getting considerably better in the space of a patch or an actual change they made, but I can consistenly land 2 shots with the grandeur and he is no longer what can be considered useless. Barring that, his smoke is so quick to cooldown that he is only out of smoke for 15 seconds tops at a time so he is getting slowly more and more viable. Don’t rule him out of the equation as he is at the moment. Also, I really dont like the idea of not being able to shoot in smoke except for stoker and Phoenix, considering that smoke would put redeye at a disadvantage to those characters, which he doesn’t need at all. Also, the smoke is tactical and non lethal, so I really don’t like the damage idea either.

(Lumi) #10

[quote=“Bottlecaps;111033”]@Lumi He’s my favorite merc :slight_smile:
Hmm the idea of disabling weapon usage is interesting. It would make the smoke a area-of-denial ability more so than a line-of-sight ability. It would also make it so that Red Eye can’t smoke camp. It’s interesting but it certainly can shake things up in how to play as Red Eye. Would this ability affect teammates? If so then I think it’s a bad idea. The tactic of covering EV repair or while planting/defusing etc. with smoke could be rendered useless.[/quote]

Maybe it could be just like stoker’s Molotov regarding teammate’s affectability. And if Friendly fire is turned on then it works on teammates too. Of course we would then need distinct shades for the smoke to distinguish between allied and enemy smoke.

@GottaBeGreg

It is very fortunate for you that you manage to use the grandeur well, but many players cannot and to be frank I can count with one hand’s fingers how many Red-Eye’s I encounter in a week. My point is still valid: people don’t chose him because he’s useless. Mercs are chosen mainly on an ability basis, then because they offer a particular set of weapons.

Many people shy away from Arty and Kira because they only offer semi automatic rifles, Red-Eye suffers from the same. Yet both Arty and Kira have ammo providing capabilities and an ability that damages the EV/ kills people. Red-Eye doesn’t even have that to attract people.

As @magnanimousMagician stated before, there is no real need for tactical sight blocking in this game as it is so fast pace, that passing through the smoke is fast and easy and quickly negates the sight blocking effect. On top of that, most FPS games I know that offer smokes, don’t allow for them to be actively dissipated. Once they’re there, they stay their allocated time. In DB the smoke is a problematic tool and new players on a Red-Eye rotation would be horrible. (I’m still waiting to see that one happen, but most likely everyone will stop playing him after half a game)

In the end adding a slight yet not as strong area denial effect such as Stocker’s Molotov would help new players to use the smoke in a more focussed way. It would also give the smoke desirability. Right now, I only want to drop it to cover the EV or bomb defuse, etc. Worst is that if I throw my smoke and die for some stupid reason right then and there, my teammates will be left with a smoke and no information as to where the enemy is, rendering it not just useless but incapacitating.

The smoke needs something else to adapt it to the fast game pace of DB. The grandeur mastery is here not being discussed. So why don’t you chip in and explain what you would do to the smoke?

(Szakalot) #11

isnt redeye heavily used in comp 5v5? sounds like he found his use

(Lumi) #12

Imo, heavy usage in a game mode where only a tiny fraction of the gamer population resides doesn’t seem like reason enough to leave him useless for pubs.

(Szakalot) #13

Imo, heavy usage in a game mode where only a tiny fraction of the gamer population resides doesn’t seem like reason enough to leave him useless for pubs.[/quote]

comp is the sign of the future pub meta.

If a particular merc is very strong in comp, its also really strong on pubs. Average skill level of players will increase in time, so people will chase what is effective.

(bizarreRectangle) #14

Actually blocking lines of sight can be powerful. It just depends where you block it. Throwing smoke on objectives you have to complete is a good example, it confuses and disorients the enemy. Blocking doorways and lines of sight of snipers or fire support specialists is very helpful. No change to smoke needed.

Sure he doesn’t have a laser or artillery to make him appealing. He’s just a different kind of merc who’s very unique and strange. I like him that way, rather than just another smg/ar wielding merc. It’s a good option if you’re tired of the usual selection of mercs.

(GottaBeGreg) #15

Yeh the fact that I can kinda use him well isnt the only thing I covered. He is actually an extremely powerful merc and he is not useless. He is an incredible counter sniper and if played right he is a serious asset to the team. Just because he is underused doesn’t mean we need to change his entire play style. I personally do not like to comment on a character I havent used extensively and I have used this guy extensively and can confidently say he is NOT USELESS. The grandeur is a powerhouse in the right hands and just because the people in pubs arent the right hands doesnt make the character useless.

(bizarreRectangle) #16

I completely agree with greg. Only thing is that although I’m helping out the team a ton (it shows in the gameplay too) you don’t get a lot points from it. Thankfully the dev team is aware of this judging from the newest changes.

(Lumi) #17

I experienced something unexpected with Red-Eye since he is in rotation. Not by using him, but by having two of them in my team, the battlefield was actually covered with smoke 50% of the time and I loved it. It was fun to have to battle in shadows and get those occasional red dots.

I guess it usually doesn’t happen because not many people play Red-Eye and when we have one, the long cool down for the smoke, coupled with the fact that he can only throw one at once, makes it sparse and uninteresting. You always got to way the when and where to throw it for maximum efficiency.

I’ve stated somewhere before that I would like to see Red-Eye with two smokes instead of one, but it doesn’t seem like a popular idea. For me though, after seeing what kind of mix up the multiple smokes can provide, it just makes me love the idea even more.

Finally, on a side note, with the rotation I feel the need to be able to differentiate Red-Eye’s smoke. Like between it being an ally smoke or an enemy one. Before I knew if I had to be cautious while entering a smoke, now that there are Red-Eye’s on both teams I’m at a loss.

(3N1GM4) #18

I’m intrigued by idea of not being able to shoot while in the smoke. But it sounds like it may work better and conceptually as, you can’t use your primary weapon.

The idea behind that is most (all?) primary weapons require two hands. Last time I was in a ball of smoke, I needed to use at least one hand to cover my face, which would still allow the player to use their side arm with the other.

Ideally this mechanic would auto-switch back and forth between the primary/secondary weapons. I use the “select best weapon*” command on my mouse which could run when you enter/exit smoke if you’re not firing. If you are firing while you enter the smoke or you switch back manually you could start taking slight damage (5hp/s)

  • I’m assuming this is used on freshly revived players, if you’ve ever noticed you get revived with your pistol out if your primary was empty. It switches to your next “best weapon” that has ammo. If you press it when your primary is empty, it will bring up your secondary, if you press it when both primary and secondary are empty, it will pull up your knife.
  • SwitchToBestWeapon [bForceNewWeapon] - Attempts to change the player’s weapon to the best weapon in the player’s inventory. If bForceNewWeapon is true, the new weapon will be a different weapon than the one currently being used, assuming the player has more than one weapon at the time (this is optional and defaults to False).
(Lumi) #19

@3N1GM4

Definitely the kind of thought I was having. I don’t want the smoke to be completely area denial, like Stoker’s Molotov, but to have some sort of dissuasive effect.

On the other hand I’ve seen how interesting multiple smokes can be in the recent rotation, so I wouldn’t mind to leave smokes as they are but to add a second one to Red-Eye…

(sentimentalDime) #20

I like Redeye. I like him a lot.
But his abilities just doesn’t have that oomph that he needs, that combined with pretty bad weapons, I feel I have to focus 100% and go tryhard on people to do good enough for it to be a little fun to play him, but at that point, because i’m trying way too hard, it just ruins the experience for me.
That’s why I want to want to play him, but just can’t.