How to balance Vassili 101 + good patch notes that actually make senes

(prophett) #81

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;536356]

oh wait actually it’s quite easy to pull stuff out your ass and parade it as fact instead of personal theory as described in my graph below


[/QUOTE]

LoL. Best graph.

Think this thread can close…

(DarkangelUK) #82

Gonna be honest mate, another wasted reply. I quoted then deleted all of the text because no one wants to hear it… like was said a page of replies ago. Let it go, your theory is crap, it’s almost like you’re not paying attention.

(Szakalot) #83

i could say the same, haha.

If the theory is crap, surely you could summarize in 2 sentences whats wrong with it. the fact that you can’t (won’t) tells me otherwise.

I don’t give up on people easily either, if you abandon talking on an online forum, well, what else is left here to do? : )

(DarkangelUK) #84

I told you the crap, you made it all up with fabricated numbers (not even numbers, a vague line value with 0 substance), what’s difficult to understand here?

(mti_) #85

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;536364]hmmm curious, very curious indeed

Though I do like how the name calling and verbal put downs started long ago, but you only pipe up now when I post? Of course I said we should put the subject to rest as I’m not interested, and parties kept it going, then the biggest nob on the forum pipes in with something unrelated, but well, I guess its all me because you have a bee in your bonnet (or a hard on) for me.

I’m all for partial changes mentioned but with overkill instagib, e.g. Vas headshotting someone that’s below 50hp should instagib (that’s an example folks, not a definite number, could be 30, could be 20). It’s a ‘heavy weapon’ of sorts so should behave as so.[/QUOTE]

The tone in general deteriorated in this topic.

He made pictures for you, because sometimes it’s harder for people with mental disorders to learn without proper visuals. :Q

My last one got closed due to someone (not you) that I didnt have a disagreement with but who rather insisted on a direct personal attack. You made this post about you, not me. Call me the nob but you seem to feel at least somewhat guilty to be reacting this way. I am happy to put any personal feud to rest. Thats not what I am here for at all. I will discuss facts and even subjective matters and I dont mind for the tone to get rough.
This was more “a dig” (as you like to call it) at Mustang than you.

(DarkangelUK) #86

[QUOTE=mti_;536391]The tone in general deteriorated in this topic. My last one got closed due to someone that I didnt have a disagreement with but who rather insisted on a direct personal attack. You made this post about you, not me. Call me the nob but you seem to feel at least somewhat guilty be be reacting this way. I am happy to put any personal feud to rest. Thats not what I am here for at all. I will discuss facts and even subjective matters and I dont mind for the tone to get rough.
This was more “a dig” (as you like to call it) at Mustang than you.[/QUOTE]

You’re taking this far too personal when it’s not even there. You can please quote personal attacks and I will try and explain the point in the matter, more so it was probably towards a biased opinion rather than towards the person that made it. My ‘nob’ comment was actually towards chickenwaffles, because the guy is clearly an asshole that doesn’t like it when some disagrees with him so attacks the person directly rather than the points they have made, he takes an opposing opinion as an attack on himself rather than just against his opinion… I guess you two have more in common than i thought.

(mti_) #87

I edited my post to be more specific before you ever got to read it cause I did realize it could be misunderstood. As I (now?) stated I dont have any issues with you personally. I would rather have someone arguing passionately for something I despise or against something I feel strongly about than people not participating at all. We can call eachother names all we want and Ill survive as long as the topic at hand, the issue discussed survives as well.

e: also like how you sort of put the nob thing into perspective just to reapply the statement at the very end =)
e2: just to clarify my original post was about chicken’s tone and the closed topic was http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/45647-How-to-actually-properly-get-a-cheater-banned in which I was accused of obviously being too retarded to spot a cheater who doesnt even try to hide it even tho that very person argued that cheaters cant be avoided in another thread.

(ARTiER) #88

cd0cca91b7b57c5c9f7c392a4da32651.jpg302×523 33.3 KB

:eek::eek::eek:

(chickenNwaffles) #89

It’s not my fault that you get too easily offended by people who criticize your opinions.

And no, I don’t take an opposing opinion as an attack on myself, why the **** would I?

I just think that sometimes, people’s opinions are so insane that it’s hard to not get upset about them; like you, saying how these proposed changed lower the skillcap of Vassili. That alone just leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about and should just stop where you are at.

If you are able to back up your claim - maybe with pictures? :smiley: - then maybe, I will not just instantly dismiss it as dumb. I can back up my changes with lots of sniping experience Vs. the best players in the game. What can you back up yours with?

Please, I beg you to explain how the **** this makes any sense at all?

These changes for Vassili are the best that you are ever going to see: and they come from a person that only played Vassili for the longest time.

It’s pretty black and white to me that Vassili needs a nerf (it’s the same for any top team).

I’m actually a really nice guy, but I just can’t stand people with retarded opinions and people who get super triggered by insults on the internet.

I’m really sorry if I’m being too rude, but you people are just too hard to work with; it’s like you guys like to argue about off topic things for fun.

(Daerados) #90

You, sir, just hard to agree with. Everyone allowed to tell their opinion, but you believe in them, like it’s some kind of book of truth, some of which are silly. You may have one of the longest game time with Vasili, but experience depends on a person, not a spent hours. I tell this, only to say that every single opinion got proposed here was discarded in a rude way by you just because they played less than you. But one person here, I can tell by his well written arguments is much adequate and expirienced than you. (don’t ask, not me ofcourse, I don’t like to call names either).

Everytime someone mentions atleast little correction to yours - you attack people and vice versa - if someone makes a proposition, you still attack them. If someone explains how their point which differs from yours - attack them, nothing else matters here, only yours and only.

Top team? You call top teams? I don’t believe it. No top teams complains about the game, but searches ways to eliminate weaknesses - top teams adapts! They can have vasili/phantom/now redeye all three can be played by one “so called top player” and help his team to balance the weight in the same effect. I can explain each, you can and I know you will dissagree with me("bla bla dumb ‘beep’, no idea what he talking about, i’m better, i have longer etc.), I don’t write it just for you:

Vasili - pretty self explanatory.

Phantom - even after nerfs, he still have a sole purpose - flank and get behind to take out key player(s). It’s what he designed for and I guess nerfed because people were using him as face to face combat with using his cloak as damage soaking ability. Even moderate team member knows if you can’t outsnipe in face to face - you’re not good enough, you should be clever about your position, be unpredictable etc etc. Yes sometimes not even teams play against each other, lack of experiences comes in, that’s life.

For example, our test subject can take phantom and go for him close and personally, yes longer than to kill him with sniper rifle, BUT effect is even better. I’ve seen arguments that “No Phantom can get to a good Vasili ever”, it’s a joke?? Yes, it requires a bit of patience to not just run to target, but also avoid being spotted, but hey, if every action in the game would be the same, what’s the point to have so many classes? Here’s scenarios:

  1. Our player have atleast moderate game sense and meta thinking to avoid being detected, goes and kills Vasili (first time usually unexpected to see if someone changed class). Then try to take out medic or engineer or unexpectedly go spawn camp Vasili second time. Killed 2 times, enough, same crap won’t do it.
  2. Even now when enemy team knows of your presense and they split up to defend his key player, it’s already their weakness in your favor.
  3. Paranoia factor. Let’s pretend they don’t change anything at all, but Vasili knows that there’s phantom. He won’t be that efficent anymore if knows there’s phantom lurking after him.
    It reminds me of a Team Fortress 2, spy is direct counter to sniper. By direct counter I mean you can’t do much against it, even if skill is much higher, ofcourse if he wont screw up. But spies direct counter is pyro - welcome Redeye:

2 edged sword: if you try counter Vasili with Phantom, you can have a bad day if they also have Redeye. Ok. Second edge, let your team take Redeye themselves, no counters (at the moment atleast) and give your team a efficent smokes to break Vasilis line of sight, because red glowing and tracers from his gun is not enough… Let enemy waste their abilities (explosions) on this or wait. Win win. Ofcourse it’s just from couple days playing versus/with redeye. I propose to give it a time and see how things will settle up to make another conclusions.

I know it’s just overalls, not specific scenarios. But hey, possibilities of strategies in this game much more to be explored. And top teams should do it first, not complain how much developers sight on game differs from theirs.

Challenge for waffle: Maybe you could show us, that you can think outside of box and something other than nerfs (because it’s f. easy to throw dirt at something you don’t like), but how about improving someone/something else??

(Tanzverbot) #91

sounds like pretty much every post i’ve read here from you tbh.

(Szakalot) #92

you told me its crap cause its crap and it doesnt have imaginary skill&power numbers. How the hell would you quantify skill? How the hell would you quantify power? How do you compare the power of a revive vs instagib vs airstrike vs fast defuse? How do you compare the skill of tracking aim vs flick aim vs trickjumping movement vs dodging movement? good luck!

You fixed your mind on the graphs like I was trying to put some very sophisticated idea out there, whereas I was just explaining what chickenwaffle was proposing.

I begin to think you have no idea what skill ceiling is. Figured the rhino vs vassili example would be easy enough, but it seems you can’t get past that either.
Extra credits explained it pretty well, have fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

@ Daerados

Dude, you really don’t know what you are talking about ; ) you don’t BELIEVE that chicken is one of top snipers in the game? How long have you been playing, a week? How long have you followed competitive scene (not matchmaking - competitive), if at all?

You seem like a nice fellow, but maybe you’d find your arguments more powerful if you researched the scene a little bit first ; )

(BioSnark) #93

Reread the original post.

(Daerados) #94

You think I duscuss here without reading it? It was just a proposition to people like him, everyone can call nerfs, it’s a chain reaction, if it will pass, something next will come up. How about ideas to improve something else, instead of nerfing one by one. That’s all :slight_smile:

(ARTiER) #95

[QUOTE=Daerados;536413]
Top team? You call top teams? I don’t believe it. No top teams complains about the game, but searches ways to eliminate weaknesses - top teams adapts! [/QUOTE]

hmm. PkD and s6 complaining about the game,especially -> VASILLI. but ok. DB RIP anyway.bye

(DarkangelUK) #96

[QUOTE=Szakalot;536424]you told me its crap cause its crap and it doesnt have imaginary skill&power numbers. How the hell would you quantify skill? How the hell would you quantify power? How do you compare the power of a revive vs instagib vs airstrike vs fast defuse? How do you compare the skill of tracking aim vs flick aim vs trickjumping movement vs dodging movement? good luck!

You fixed your mind on the graphs like I was trying to put some very sophisticated idea out there, whereas I was just explaining what chickenwaffle was proposing.

I begin to think you have no idea what skill ceiling is. Figured the rhino vs vassili example would be easy enough, but it seems you can’t get past that either.
Extra credits explained it pretty well, have fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w[/QUOTE]

1: Rhino should never have been in your discussion, I’ve seen that video before, Rhino is the E-Honda DB but Rhino existing has no influence over how effective a player can be at sniping
2: We’re talking about the skill required to be an effective sniper with all the current elements vs the proposed changed elements in play, you ran off on a tangent adding the rest in there to aid your point when we’re simply talking about sniping.
3: Vague lines on a graph that you created yourself add nothing except bias to your point. With no factual info they’re opinion numbers designed to help your stance.

So we have sniping currently and we have two snipers, a good sniper and a bad sniper. The elements in play are player tracking and fighting against scope sway. Even when an enemy is stood still, there’s still player tracking involved as scope sway still adds movement, so the player needs to adjust the scope and react to the crosshair moving over the enemy head and pressing fire. A good player will manage this most of the time and keep their hit accuracy high, it may not always be headshots but they can hit with that moving scope quite often. A bad player won’t, even on slow or non-moving targets he’ll miss because of the sway, so he needs to practice more.

Remove sway, sniping now becomes a point and click adventure game. There’s no tracking and adjustment required now for slow or non-moving targets, suddenly shots that were previously outwith the bad snipers skill range are now within it and easier to hit because there is no sway modifier to account for. He’ll hit a higher percentage of shots even solely based on shooting at stationary targets that he would have previously missed, and the lack of sway means he simply needs to work on player tracking alone and not tracking plus sway compensation which also brings moving targets within his skill range. As he practices, that expanding skill circle covers more targets and scenarios than it would have if there was sway compensation to adjust for as well.

The good player is still hitting his shots, but now more frequently as the lack of sway compensation required means he can snap to multiple enemies quicker and he’s simply held back by fire rate and reload speed. There could also be times where the random scope sway caused him to miss, rare but still happened, that element is now gone and reduces his miss rate as well. Take a look at good snipers from other games, they’ll try their best to keep to quick scoping because there’s no sway to account for, nkm in ETQW was a very good quickscoper. I believe scoped spread doesn’t kick in in DB until the scope is fully brought up so it’s not as easy to quickscope in DB which also makes me think this is why snipers want sway removed.

I also think some people (not you per se) are missing the fact that I already said IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO TRY IT AND I AGREE IT COULD POSSIBLY BE AN IMPROVEMENT BUT WE’D NEED IT TESTED FIRST, but with overkill instagib in place.

(Daerados) #97

You missed my point, top teams for OP is the best teams in the game right now, which should always change if game will become more popular. I say what I ment by top team - how every professional team in other games doing. For everything there is counter measure and people sometimes compain instead to think about how to invent something against it. Like us, they ofcourse have an opinion, but some of them like OP thinks that they opinion weights infinitly more than ours.

(BioSnark) #98

The original post has a single suggestion that is a nerf. There are other points, there.

(Szakalot) #99

Good post! ; )

re:
only used him as an illustration of skill ceiling

2: We’re talking about the skill required to be an effective sniper with all the current elements vs the proposed changed elements in play, you ran off on a tangent adding the rest in there to aid your point when we’re simply talking about sniping.

i honestly thought you had no idea what skill ceiling is…

3: Vague lines on a graph that you created yourself add nothing except bias to your point. With no factual info they’re opinion numbers designed to help your stance.

lol, vague lines on a graph i made are not evidence of anything, just a better presentation of my point of view. since it seemed like you weren’t getting the point. I illustrated what I think the situation is, and how it would change with chicken’s changes.

good vs bad sniper

Yes, bad snipers will hit more, but their hits will be less relevant:

  • lack of instagib will force snipers to rely on their teammates, as a single medic can ruin their day
  • sway is mostly random, so good player compensate for it by flick-shot play; bad players struggle/play stationary
  • removing sway removes the randomness from aiming: you hit where you aim for, but you still have to aim well
  • the better the accuracy of a weapon, the better it scales with skill in a fast-paced game, where movement is the primary way of not getting hit. Shotgun that fires all over the place has lower skill ceiling than a railgun/lightining gun from Q3. ETpro smgs are more skill-based than ETQW vanilla lacerator/AR.
  • as taken from your post: ‘remove sway - all snipers will hit more shots’ - yeah obviously i agree, but since a single shot will be less relevant, sniper will become a) more tied to their team to make an impact b) more mobile due to lack of sway punishment

I also think some people (not you per se) are missing the fact that I already said IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO TRY IT AND I AGREE IT COULD POSSIBLY BE AN IMPROVEMENT BUT WE’D NEED IT TESTED FIRST, but with overkill instagib in place.

How much overkill are you talking about? sniper rifles deal 150+ damage, most mercs have 110-120.

I’d imagine instagib at 80-100hp overkill could still be fine, wouldnt really make a difference in the game. But rather than tweaking values by small amounts, I’d love to see a more drastic change to how sniper is handled, so NO instagib sounds like a good start, and we can backtrack with overkill-instagibs later.

(Szakalot) #100

so according to some imaginary top teams we should take your word for it that ‘for everything there is counter measure’?

Yeah… no. Fragger nades have no countermeasures. If we adopted the ‘for everything there is counter measure’ mentality, we would never see the consecutive 3 different nerfs to how fragger’s nades operate; within the last 6 months.