How to balance Vassili 101 + good patch notes that actually make senes


(fubar) #41

No offense Daerados, but the reason you aren’t exposed to the problems that revolve around Vasilli’s instagib is due to you having no competitive experience. He’s fine in pubs, he’s fine when used by your average player, he’s fine in a casual environment and will remain fine with instagibs removed.
This change would not, in any way or form, affect how this game is played out on pubs/casual/matchmaking, however would liberate competitive from being FORCED to utilize Vasilli in their setup simply due to his severe effectiveness and the plain fact that the only way of dealing with a Vasilli is… having a counter Vasilli.

Don’t forget, due to how revives work now… A Vasilli would still have the choice between wanting to sack another kill or gibbing the player he just killed. He gets to make an active CHOICE.


(DarkangelUK) #42

I hate to remind people because they seem to get overly butthurt when you state a fact, but the comp crowd are a minority. Yes I completely agree that comp is important, but the devs need to reach a happy medium that doesn’t screw over the masses for the sake of the (loud) few.


(Daerados) #43

[QUOTE=fubar;536244]No offense Daerados, but the reason you aren’t exposed to the problems that revolve around Vasilli’s instagib is due to you having no competitive experience. He’s fine in pubs, he’s fine when used by your average player, he’s fine in a casual environment and will remain fine with instagibs removed.
This change would not, in any way or form, affect how this game is played out on pubs/casual/matchmaking, however would liberate competitive from being FORCED to utilize Vasilli in their setup simply due to his severe effectiveness and the plain fact that the only way of dealing with a Vasilli is… having a counter Vasilli.

Don’t forget, due to how revives work now… A Vasilli would still have the choice between wanting to sack another kill or gibbing the player he just killed. He gets to make an active CHOICE.[/QUOTE]

No offense, you’re wrong telepath. I don’t like pubs that much, unless I have a really boring mission like support XP or secondary objectives. Occasionally resting after Vasili. Relax, discussions are cool. Everybody here have a point, but only few thinks about consequences before making propositions. You know what are mine?

Phantom was nerfed, because people didn’t get used to need to have so much awareness. Done. -> Vasili wished to be nerfed. Let’s pretend done. -> Revive spam tactic next topic in forums. -> Healing stations heals too much under attack. -> Fraggers nades 1 shots people, plz no instagib -> Medics complaining about 1 hit kills from phantoms. More hp plz. -> Phantom under nerf again. -> etc etc etc. Maybe stop offering nerf hammering everyone, guys? Propose to improve other mercs. Glottis mentioned map designs, props to him for that. Smoke grenades are coming, very curious.


(chickenNwaffles) #44

How is this exactly lowering the skill ceiling? I’m not sure what you mean.

Removing all randomness from Vassili finally allows players to snipe to their full potential; the only downside is that they won’t be insanely potent in both 8v8s and 5v5 competitive matches.

I’ve played enough Vassili in the game to say that these changes are perfect and that there are no other changes that will “raise” the skill ceiling of him besides these.

Not sure where you get your answers from.


(fubar) #45

Competitive Matchmaking is NOT the competitive scene of this game. It’s merely a glorified public. I have never seen you participate in any of the LLL, DC or ESL cups.

Map design has been mentioned over and over again, it’s an issue but one not likely to be addressed. In the meantime we still have the instagib that severely cripples competitive play in its current meta. Revive was already nerfed due to the outcries of the competitive scene and seems to be in a rather good state right now, not perfect, but good.
Phantom nerf was proposed by casual players, namely the reddit and nexon forum community. Not a single one of us EVER complained about him. He was useless in competitive play and still is.
Revive spam would be an non-issue due to, yet again, the ability to gib just as effectively as before - more so than any other merc in the game.

I honestly don’t understand your obsession of wanting to keep the instagib. You can down a player with a headshot, or even bodyshot and STILL have enough time to either kill a medic rushing in to revive, or even gib the player. The current revive mechanic allows you to hit a downed player TWICE before he enters his invulnerability state. Plenty of time. Where do you see these sudden “revive trains” coming in? Because I don’t. If you don’t gib, that’s a choice on your part and very likely a failure on your part, but your CHOICE nonetheless.

All that aside, top players have been complaining about the instagib on vasilli for months now. This is not a sudden revelation chickenwaffles had, it’s been an issue since before the closed beta and still remains an issue to date. This is not phantom.


(chickenNwaffles) #46

I guess you have to play vs a very good sniper to fully understand why instagibs are too strong for Vassili…

To me, this **** is pretty black and white: Vassili is OP and needs a nerf, any competent player can agree with me.


(chickenNwaffles) #47

[QUOTE=fubar;536231]Yeah, but you’ve also got knockback from guns. Shafting someone mid-air will just keep him in position and make it an easier target, where as in DB you really don’t have any disadvantages from jumping, you don’t get shoved, you don’t lose speed or momentum, nothing.

Also I agree, **** the monkey style of playing we have right now, people walljump left and right whenever they lose duels, panicking so hard and trying to squeeze a bit of RNG/Luck their way, it’s not rewarding, it’s not beneficial, it just looks utter stupid and frustrates the hell out of me that they aren’t penalized for trying to shoot mid-air.[/QUOTE]

Yea, I guess that’s a dumb style of playing. I just hate the crouch spam style of combat we have currently.


(chickenNwaffles) #48

[QUOTE=Daerados;536199]You’ve shown yourself also very ‘well’, chicken, leaving such mess at my reputation page. Please nvm me, I just have an opinion and hope SD staff will take only in consideration argumented suggestions. Good day, sir.

Without saying my experience, opinion was discarded almost immediately. So, I’ll try it again… By saying I’m not a good sniper (max gold 2), I believe I can’t achieve further rank progress without proper team play (and occasionally hackers). As I said earlier, in my opinion, Vasili has highest learning curve and skill celling in the game, so I’m far from good. Pubs doesn’t count.

Imho, Vasili is the most balanced class in the game. Why, you may ask? Vasili is not all about just aim skill, but also about game sense, much more than other mercs do in both terms. In this game every enemy glow brightly red color, you can see him from other part of the map. Even more, I think no other merc has it? - after every shot Vasili makes, from his gun white trace is shown. What else can be done to show, how easily you can avoid his line of sight? It takes much more effort from him to choose position to avoid detection and be unpredictable than you to move out of his sight. That’s what he should be good about at higher ranks - avoid detection and don’t miss your chance(first shot), which is precision elimination of key player, like medic or about to throw artillery skyhammer, planting engineer etc. Because, after first kill/miss, other always knows – where.

I played every merc, but now I occasionally only play as Phantom/Fragger competitively when I have a bad day with Vasili, and what, do you think my 6-8:1 K/D ratio with so little effort makes sense? No, it’s not rewarding and rarely useful for my team. Because often teams have 2 medics who resurrects almost immediately. I’ll better make less kills with Vasili, but such kills, after which enemy won’t make it back.

So, about changes. People wants me to be more precise, sure.

Bolt action sniper rifles should have heads off removed/or for example damage lowered?
Well, I suppose it’s a hint that it could be like auto-snipers right now? Let’s pretend it happened. What will become with auto sniper type gun itself? I don’t care about them, because they’re lame, just imho - no hate. :slight_smile: But still, it’ll be like semi-auto assault damage rifle with scope? And bolt action rifle will just tag enemy who will go to hide and/or heal if bodyshot like now or ressurected (about that lower), because bright red glow and white line from Vasilis gun was not enough for him to realize to move out from open. As loading a bullet in to chamber take about 2 seconds and we won’t be able to finish most peeps off. hint fast ress.
p.s. I think much more people will create such threads afterwards or stop playing like OP. ! Merc will loose it’s purpose. !

Proposed to make harder a killing(finish) of moving targets, but offered to kill downed player much easily.
It take almost no effort to finish off with a headshot someone who lying on ground. Silly, enough said.

Scope.
I think it’s good as it is. I also don’t like randomness in game. But this one is in a good shape. Inaccuracy when you first scope in is there, because we have a crosshair without scope. It would be too much if we wouldn’t have a need to calibrate/twitch before shot. And for jumping, I hope devs won’t touch it at all. It’s an art in my opinion :slight_smile:

Accuracy of other weapons.
Just no. When I started to play this game, my first try was Arty. I thought about that: “Uh oh, his gun fires so much slower than other guns in game, why it also has such accuracy when other spamming jumps and crouches hits their shots so constant.” Every guy who spent more than a ten? hours in this game should’ve realized that movement is a key here. But then I realized: give me almost perfect accuracy… just no. Boring. Overpowered like OP call it. Fine as it is. Some actions make it worse, some not so much. I think developers know what they’re doing. Let’s not overextend it.

Melee.
I agree that most of us used to previous melee feeling. However, it kinda felt intereseting to have such delay between swings. Like with mouse2 you hit with force and can’t return your momentum right away. You shouldn’t use it normally, unless you get behind or out of ammo and you know if you screw up – it’s your fault and you deserved to die.

TL;DR: 404 – not found.

Thank you if read all of this. I’m also not native english speaker, open to any opinions, not just “yes, not” :wink:[/QUOTE]

No, body shot damage is reduced to say, half, but it still downs players and 1 shot, and subsequently gibs then when they are downed in 1 shot.

As you get good with Vassili, you tend to never go for body shots.


(BAMFana) #49

I think the instagibbing is fine, medics are still very powerful even after the revive nerfs and with instagibbing snipers. I personally think it’s boring how every team comp in 5v5 is always 1x fragger, 2x medic, 1x sniper/sky, 1x engi (or similar). Instead of nerfing one of the few mechanics limiting the effectivity of medics, I think it would make more sense to nerf other aspects of Vas (if a nerf is needed), such as hp, movement speed, fire rate, etc.


(fishbone_) #50

Adding RNG = Raising skill ceiling. Ok that’s new.

[QUOTE=fubar;536231]Yeah, but you’ve also got knockback from guns. Shafting someone mid-air will just keep him in position and make it an easier target, where as in DB you really don’t have any disadvantages from jumping, you don’t get shoved, you don’t lose speed or momentum, nothing.

Also I agree, **** the monkey style of playing we have right now, people walljump left and right whenever they lose duels, panicking so hard and trying to squeeze a bit of RNG/Luck their way, it’s not rewarding, it’s not beneficial, it just looks utter stupid and frustrates the hell out of me that they aren’t penalized for trying to shoot mid-air.[/QUOTE]

That’s true but i’m not taking the perfect example of the Lightning gun. Taking into consideration that jumping in Quake is far more risky than in DB because of the air time and you can predict easier where to land a rocket / rail.

Saying that you don’t lose momentum by jumping in DB, I don’t completely agree since you are slowed as ***** after a long jump. Clunky movement system I dare to say.


(Szakalot) #51

removing instagib is raising skill ceiling : you have to be really good to make vassili worth it, and its also harder to do headshot-gib one-two punch. Without instagib, there is now more skill in playing vassili well, since he won’t be able to stop an entire push on his own.

Removing sway will make shots easier to do. Whether something is easy or not has little to do with skill ceiling.

Throwing a nade is easy to do. Throwing nades to consistently score kills is a little harder. Hence, Fragger’s nades skill ceiling is pretty low (excluding map specific throws in comp etc. which fortunately allow the ceiling to go up a bit, in this gamemode)

Skill ceiling is about the potential of a merc. You want a merc that is easy to play (vassili def. fits; on pubs) but hard to master (vas alsodef. fits in comp play); while not making the merc overpowered at higher levels.

Good example of a low skill ceiling merc is Rhino. Anyone can play him well, and while meaningful on 8v8 pubs; he doesn’t scale well enough to be used in comp; except maybe for some surprise strats.


(DarkangelUK) #52

Sorry but you lost my interest at “Whether something is easy or not has little to do with skill ceiling” and I can’t believe you think that’s a serious comment. Few people can run a vasilli well (we know this), they struggle to compensate for sway vs player movement and timing the headshot so most go for body, removing the sway makes it easier to hit headshots therefore the skill ceiling for accuracy with the gun is lowered. Don’t make stuff up, it doesn’t do the rest of the your post justice and makes me not want to read it.


(fubar) #53

Because the same players consistently hit headshots with non-swaying SMGs? Oh please. Counter-acting a random non-predictable sway is frustrating - period. It has nothing to do with skill, either you aim well or you don’t. You don’t aim well, you’re going to do just as bad with no sway. You aim well? Oh look, you suddenly just got even better because there’s nothing fighting against you, stopping you from landing headshots. If anything removing sway will just put the bad even further apart from the good.


(DarkangelUK) #54

Ah the ole “bring completely different guns into it to aid my point” routine. Though you have given a better explanation this time round which makes the scenario more interesting. I still attest that a poor shooters accuracy will rise without sway, there’s no way in hell removing sway will keep it the same. I’d be interested to try it, but I’m also a fan of ‘overkill’. Remove the instagib to a point, but if someone has 5hp left and gets headshot then that should be instagib IMO.


(Phantomchan) #55

These are more buffs than balances to Vasilli, he is fine and a pain in the ass how he is now already. I’d like to keep him at this position.


(chickenNwaffles) #56

This is where a public test realm would really, REALLY, come in handy. Nobody here knows if these changes will entirely work, without them actually being in place.

I say just do it and see how things go for a week - the game would be much more fluid, imo - and if these changes don’t work out, then just revert them.

It’s not like any of you ****ers snipe… if anything, these changes help the majority of players.


(Kroad) #57

[QUOTE=fubar;536231]
Also I agree, **** the monkey style of playing we have right now, people walljump left and right whenever they lose duels, panicking so hard and trying to squeeze a bit of RNG/Luck their way, it’s not rewarding, it’s not beneficial, it just looks utter stupid and frustrates the hell out of me that they aren’t penalized for trying to shoot mid-air.[/QUOTE]

disagreed, jumps are a lot easier to track than ADAD as it is a fixed and predictable animation from the moment you hit space

maybe you have trouble with it since what i know of your game history is just all ADAD but once you get used to tracking jumping targets I’m sure you too will find them quite easy to track

I also don’t see why ADAD crouchspam is any more skilled than jumpspam. Both can be used skillfully to dodge better, but using just one badly will make you a lot easier to kill


(Volcano) #58

you wouldn’t be wasting your sensor because you would throw in front of you like a normal person would because every approach is already covered by your teammates


(fubar) #59

[QUOTE=Kroad;536302]disagreed, jumps are a lot easier to track than ADAD as it is a fixed and predictable animation from the moment you hit space

maybe you have trouble with it since what i know of your game history is just all ADAD but once you get used to tracking jumping targets I’m sure you too will find them quite easy to track

I also don’t see why ADAD crouchspam is any more skilled than jumpspam. Both can be used skillfully to dodge better, but using just one badly will make you a lot easier to kill[/QUOTE]

I have no trouble tracking it, I just find it extremely annoying.


(chickenNwaffles) #60

But is it really a problem?

The only thing I have a problem with are people that bounce off the walls like a ball, other than that, I feel like people jumping in the middle of a fight is a breath of fresh air when compared to the mindless adad crouch spam.

It’s also fairly easy to track ppl in mid air.