How to balance Vassili 101 + good patch notes that actually make senes

(Kl3ppy) #21

You posted the long post twice, I just deleted the second post and your request to delete the double post. Anything else I didnt change.
Send me a pm if I should add something to your post just in case you cant edit it anymore.

(shibbyuk) #22

Forgot to say…

Even if this one was down to a poll, it still wouldn’t happen!

(Daerados) #23

[QUOTE=Kl3ppy;536196]You posted the long post twice, I just deleted the second post and your request to delete the double post. Anything else I didnt change.
Send me a pm if I should add something to your post just in case you cant edit it anymore.[/QUOTE]
Yes, asked to delete second one without reply, first was fine. Thank you. but I have another one incoming.

(Daerados) #24

[QUOTE=chickenNwaffles;536186]It took you one post to actually give me cancer, grats man on being the most ignorant dumbass on this forum.

LOL[/QUOTE]

You’ve shown yourself also very ‘well’, chicken, leaving such mess at my reputation page. Please nvm me, I just have an opinion and hope SD staff will take only in consideration argumented suggestions. Good day, sir.

Without saying my experience, opinion was discarded almost immediately. So, I’ll try it again… By saying I’m not a good sniper (max gold 2), I believe I can’t achieve further rank progress without proper team play (and occasionally hackers). As I said earlier, in my opinion, Vasili has highest learning curve and skill celling in the game, so I’m far from good. Pubs doesn’t count.

Imho, Vasili is the most balanced class in the game. Why, you may ask? Vasili is not all about just aim skill, but also about game sense, much more than other mercs do in both terms. In this game every enemy glow brightly red color, you can see him from other part of the map. Even more, I think no other merc has it? - after every shot Vasili makes, from his gun white trace is shown. What else can be done to show, how easily you can avoid his line of sight? It takes much more effort from him to choose position to avoid detection and be unpredictable than you to move out of his sight. That’s what he should be good about at higher ranks - avoid detection and don’t miss your chance(first shot), which is precision elimination of key player, like medic or about to throw artillery skyhammer, planting engineer etc. Because, after first kill/miss, other always knows – where.

I played every merc, but now I occasionally only play as Phantom/Fragger competitively when I have a bad day with Vasili, and what, do you think my 6-8:1 K/D ratio with so little effort makes sense? No, it’s not rewarding and rarely useful for my team. Because often teams have 2 medics who resurrects almost immediately. I’ll better make less kills with Vasili, but such kills, after which enemy won’t make it back.

So, about changes. People wants me to be more precise, sure.

Bolt action sniper rifles should have heads off removed/or for example damage lowered?
Well, I suppose it’s a hint that it could be like auto-snipers right now? Let’s pretend it happened. What will become with auto sniper type gun itself? I don’t care about them, because they’re lame, just imho - no hate. :slight_smile: But still, it’ll be like semi-auto assault damage rifle with scope? And bolt action rifle will just tag enemy who will go to hide and/or heal if bodyshot like now or ressurected (about that lower), because bright red glow and white line from Vasilis gun was not enough for him to realize to move out from open. As loading a bullet in to chamber take about 2 seconds and we won’t be able to finish most peeps off. hint fast ress.
p.s. I think much more people will create such threads afterwards or stop playing like OP. ! Merc will loose it’s purpose. !

Proposed to make harder a killing(finish) of moving targets, but offered to kill downed player much easily.
It take almost no effort to finish off with a headshot someone who lying on ground. Silly, enough said.

Scope.
I think it’s good as it is. I also don’t like randomness in game. But this one is in a good shape. Inaccuracy when you first scope in is there, because we have a crosshair without scope. It would be too much if we wouldn’t have a need to calibrate/twitch before shot. And for jumping, I hope devs won’t touch it at all. It’s an art in my opinion :slight_smile:

Accuracy of other weapons.
Just no. When I started to play this game, my first try was Arty. I thought about that: “Uh oh, his gun fires so much slower than other guns in game, why it also has such accuracy when other spamming jumps and crouches hits their shots so constant.” Every guy who spent more than a ten? hours in this game should’ve realized that movement is a key here. But then I realized: give me almost perfect accuracy… just no. Boring. Overpowered like OP call it. Fine as it is. Some actions make it worse, some not so much. I think developers know what they’re doing. Let’s not overextend it.

Melee.
I agree that most of us used to previous melee feeling. However, it kinda felt intereseting to have such delay between swings. Like with mouse2 you hit with force and can’t return your momentum right away. You shouldn’t use it normally, unless you get behind or out of ammo and you know if you screw up – it’s your fault and you deserved to die.

TL;DR: 404 – not found.

Thank you if read all of this. I’m also not native english speaker, open to any opinions, not just “yes, not” :wink:

(Szakalot) #25

@OP

Agree to all Vassili changes. They are great and would make the game better. Sou would removing all other types of instagib, except maybe airstrike in your face

Disagree to all ‘gameplay’ changes. I don’t want to play Quake3, I want to play DirtyBomb. No accuracy penalties when wallspamming would make the game too much bout jumping round

(fishbone_) #26

[QUOTE=Szakalot;536200]@OP

Agree to all Vassili changes. They are great and would make the game better. Sou would removing all other types of instagib, except maybe airstrike in your face

Disagree to all ‘gameplay’ changes. I don’t want to play Quake3, I want to play DirtyBomb. No accuracy penalties when wallspamming would make the game too much bout jumping round[/QUOTE]

Just for info, jumping in gun fights in Quake = Dead, it’s better to dodge properly.
But unfortunately in DB you’re right. Dodging is almost inexistant in this game for most classes and gravity is high, making the jump very quick. Ok it’s a little bit easier to hit the body, not the head. But in order to make constant accuracy with all the movements, SD has to tweak dodges (greater accel and deaccel) and jumps (more air time), which sadly, won’t happen…

Agree with all the others changes though.

(47__) #27

Something has to be done to vassili, because he is just insanely strong in 5v5 with his instagib, ruining wave after wave single handedly across the map.

Now I only have about 100hrs of experience with 5v5 so I can’t judge on what we can change, but I can tell you that as a fragger I hope something does happen with him.

(Daerados) #28

[QUOTE=47__;536205]Something has to be done to vassili, because he is just insanely strong in 5v5 with his instagib, ruining wave after wave single handedly across the map.

Now I only have about 100hrs of experience with 5v5 so I can’t judge on what we can change, but I can tell you that as a fragger I hope something does happen with him.[/QUOTE]

Well, if sniper spawn camps you, then your team doing something very wrong and allows it? About counters, OP didn’t mentioned Phantom at all. If guy can’t outsnipe his rival, he can do much easier same job with phantom to help his team in the same way. Most phantoms I see doing one kill and die, it needs time to get used for people thinking that phantom is a direct combat merc and using cloak as armor, but not tool to get around to give info(cooler than Vasilis sensor)/take out key players. Reminds me kind of TF2 spying when game just came out. But, don’t forget that Red-Eye coming out. In Counter-Strike smokes are direct counter for snipers. Should solve many issues.

(Glottis-3D) #29

ppl around here are well aware of all the counters you can use vs snipers. and on paper there are some of them.
but lets get down to real life.
If your opponent has top sniper, then you HAVE (no other way) to counter him with your sniper.
and if your sniper is not as good -you’re all dead, gg.
this is a fact. competitive reality in DB.

(DarkangelUK) #30

So lower the skill ceiling to allow others to compete and negate a players hard earned skill? You know there are others that want to raise the skill ceiling, right? The vast majority of snipers suck meaning he’s not a pick and up pwn merc, if you get a good one then he earned it but seems that’s not allowed these days.

(Daerados) #31

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;536211]ppl around here are well aware of all the counters you can use vs snipers. and on paper there are some of them.
but lets get down to real life.
If your opponent has top sniper, then you HAVE (no other way) to counter him with your sniper.
and if your sniper is not as good -you’re all dead, gg.
this is a fact. competitive reality in DB.[/QUOTE]

This thread shown that not all. Ranks. I’m real and I know that now, they’re not ideal, but of course, matchmaking should only improve during beta period.
About no other way - I don’t really see a scenario, where Vasili should kill approximately same skilled Phantom if Phantom won’t make a mistake. Vasili should have then an amazing sixth sense or inhuman reaction to turn around after phantoms first bullet and place a bullet in to his head. Otherwise, 3 well placed bullets from phantoms smg, as it shoots very fast - is a dead Vasili. (I exclude paranoia - then phantom will get what he desired and Vasili won’t be as effective).

(Volcano) #32

i’d be pretty surprised if a phantom could even get close to a sniper given his heart beat sensor that removes his cloak and your teammates not being completely terrible. lets not forget how good machine pistols are

(Kl3ppy) #33

Cloak is not removed when detected by HB Sensor. He just gets spotted.

(Glottis-3D) #34

[QUOTE=Daerados;536215]This thread shown that not all. Ranks. I’m real and I know that now, they’re not ideal, but of course, matchmaking should only improve during beta period.
About no other way - I don’t really see a scenario, where Vasili should kill approximately same skilled Phantom if Phantom won’t make a mistake. Vasili should have then an amazing sixth sense or inhuman reaction to turn around after phantoms first bullet and place a bullet in to his head. Otherwise, 3 well placed bullets from phantoms smg, as it shoots very fast - is a dead Vasili. (I exclude paranoia - then phantom will get what he desired and Vasili won’t be as effective).[/QUOTE]
we are not speaking MM here. at least i was not. a clanwar.
and about Phantom - that is again some theorizing. i am trying to speak here real matches, that i’ve seen in cups and also in practical games.
i got your opinion, man. but that is not very convincing, because it is more like “lets imagine this situation! or that situation”
instabig weapon in hands of a pro is imba.

but you are free to find the Best Phantom out there, and convince him to play against chickenWaffles =)

(Glottis-3D) #35

the Problem origin as i see it.

  1. The map desing is bad. It has many many chokepoints of different impact but there are lots of them. It is very difficult to attack on all maps.
  2. Player found the most viable way to overcome chokes - revive teammates like crazy. revive trains that is. and it is working! attackers mostly win, if the teams are similar in skill.
  3. the only thing that can cripple the revive tactics is instagib weapon. well, like the one, that Vasili has! Why? because you cannot be revived, you were just instantly gibbed!! this is where the word instagib is coming from!! =)

-upd-

thats why this whole Vas instagib feels so bad and unbalanced.
because due to mapper’s mistakes teamplay of one team is neglected by personal skills of one player from another team.
ofc it is not 1 sniper that is to blame (his teammates making sure other route is covered as well) but it exactly feels that way. sniper > teamplay.

(Szakalot) #36

OP’s proposed changes raise the skill ceiling!

You remove randomness (sway, quickscope) while making sniper much less powerful (no instagib); consistently headshotting sniper will still be great, maybe little bit more situational.

(DarkangelUK) #37

Sorry but removing sway is not raising the skill ceiling (how can making shots easier be making things harder??), making headshots not instagib is not raising the skill ceiling for the merc itself as any less damage inflicted in undone by the ease of the headshot.

(fubar) #38

Yeah, but you’ve also got knockback from guns. Shafting someone mid-air will just keep him in position and make it an easier target, where as in DB you really don’t have any disadvantages from jumping, you don’t get shoved, you don’t lose speed or momentum, nothing.

Also I agree, **** the monkey style of playing we have right now, people walljump left and right whenever they lose duels, panicking so hard and trying to squeeze a bit of RNG/Luck their way, it’s not rewarding, it’s not beneficial, it just looks utter stupid and frustrates the hell out of me that they aren’t penalized for trying to shoot mid-air.

(Glottis-3D) #39

another issue that is connected to snipers being so powered is slow crouch.
mostly you cannot crouch while sprint (only after delay)
so if you see sniper, you cannot immidiately save you head from a bullet.

(Daerados) #40

[QUOTE=fubar;536231]Yeah, but you’ve also got knockback from guns. Shafting someone mid-air will just keep him in position and make it an easier target, where as in DB you really don’t have any disadvantages from jumping, you don’t get shoved, you don’t lose speed or momentum, nothing.

Also I agree, **** the monkey style of playing we have right now, people walljump left and right whenever they lose duels, panicking so hard and trying to squeeze a bit of RNG/Luck their way, it’s not rewarding, it’s not beneficial, it just looks utter stupid and frustrates the hell out of me that they aren’t penalized for trying to shoot mid-air.[/QUOTE]

Monkey style tests our aim and helps them survive. Often not a problem for a other mercs than Vasili.

  1. Cloak is not removed. 2) Why would I waste sensor at my back/left/right if it’s more useful to detect enemies camping/flanking my teammates? 3) You speak like it has whole map range. *) Trying to use only revolvers, but it’s just me.

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;536234]another issue that is connected to snipers being so powered is slow crouch.
mostly you cannot crouch while sprint (only after delay)
so if you see sniper, you cannot immidiately save you head from a bullet.[/QUOTE]

Or can’t get your head to the bodyshot level :slight_smile:

About so called revive tactics - it is too much of a mechanic itself, so isn’t it beauty to have Vasili around? I don’t know if I mentioned, but that’s the only reason I switched to Vasili. Fragger ownage wagon has no effect at all if there’s more than a one person and one of them is medic, after death, feeling kinda frustrated when you killed 3-4 guys and while dead, you see that med comes in and they all get up. On EV maps I often meet team consists of 3 medics and 2 skyhammers in defense, or 2 engineers in attack. That’s what is not fun to play against, unless you’re… you know… Vasili.

TL;DR - Overall right now in the game I think every action has heavier action.