How to balance Phantom (from a community perspective)

(Supsup17) #41

I think they need to add a way to spot for phantom. If I’m not mistaken he is recon correct? (Only 60 hours in game still learning) And so far it seems recon classes can all spot except phantom. I also feel like it would fit him perfectly as he can sneak behind and kill defenses.

(Reddeadcap) #42

He is meant to be a recon, yes but that would be like saying Rhino needs grenades and Nader an LMG, he fits the cloaking/hiding part of the spectrum and support can easily be done saying it on a mic, he fills the stealth/close range role, followed by Redeye having a bit of cloaking with his smoke and spotting with his IR Monocle, Aimee with her camera and finally Vasilli with his heartbeat sensor but fills a sniping role the most, although in a case that he does I think phantom could use that spotter ability in Brink where keeping your crosshairs on an enemy long enough marks them.

(Indefinite) #43

In the sense of a Recon in any [competitive] shooter, a cloaking character is theoretically perfect for making callouts and tracking enemy movement over comm. The biggest problem with this idea is that it would work excellent implemented in CS:GO where people emphasize teamwork/locations, but isn’t working out as it currently stands, because that’s not how people play Phantom. Rather, they just want to run around like idiots, jumping straight at their enemies while pressing Mouse 2 for kills thinking the greatest of themselves.

(gg2ez) #44

That’s pretty funny seeing as everyone I know always play Phantom strategically, working with the team and using what they’ve actually got (KEK 10, Pistol).

You talk about Phantom players as if you think they’re all just brain dead Katana swingers, just because they can muscle you to the ground doesn’t mean they’re idiots, It means you’re sht. If you can’t avoid Phantom in his current state (quite sht), git gud m8, you’re going up against a weapon with the attack speed of the Greek Economy (slow). I’d understand if he could get the first hit on you, but if you can’t back away and frag the c*nt, your fault.

(Frogteam) #45

Then you’re pretty lucky. Sure, there are definitely people around who play Phantom right, every once in a while you see someone who has realized they have a gun. But there are so so so many who think the Katana is his primary weapon.

And it is very painful to watch them.

On another note he’s actually just saying that if Phantom players were less sword happy, and used voice chat to communicate enemy positions more, they’d contribute to the objective more effectively. He’s not saying that he has any problems dealing with them, I’m not sure where you got that?

(gg2ez) #46

[quote=“Frogteam;65417”][quote=“gg2ez;65412”]
That’s pretty funny seeing as everyone I know always play Phantom strategically, working with the team and using what they’ve actually got (KEK 10, Pistol).
[/quote]

Then you’re pretty lucky. Sure, there are definitely people around who play Phantom right, every once in a while you see someone who has realized they have a gun. But there are so so so many who think the Katana is his primary weapon.

And it is very painful to watch them.

On another note he’s actually just saying that if Phantom players were less sword happy, and used voice chat to communicate enemy positions more, they’d contribute to the objective more effectively. He’s not saying that he has any problems dealing with them, I’m not sure where you got that?[/quote]

I’m pretty lucky to have people around me who play Phantom properly? I’m talking about people I actually know fyi. Each and every one of my friends play Phantom just as you would play Skyhammer of Sawbonez - With a fcking gun. I’m also pretty sure all of my friends know how to use team chat and DO use team chat. As a team my friends and I actually get sht done (thus contributing more effectively).

I’ve even come across a fair few players I didn’t know, being a team player. It’s like you think being a different class automatically makes you a team player.

(Shroed) #47

maybe just forget the pahntom class and split it in 2, make a 130 hp, high movement speed, only katana/pistol class(no invisibility and try to figure out a med range class, with some kind of cloak

(gg2ez) #48

I saw a concept like this somewhere and I’ve got to say, nope.

Good luck convincing the developers to get rid of a design that they paid lots of money to make.

Besides, what’s the point, it will only create more complaints and balancing issues and people b*tching about the loss of their precious Phantom.

(Vulcan) #49

But thats just the thing, We do realize Phantom has a Gun, like every other Merc. But whats the point of using Phantom, With his Gun, Over any other Merc with the Kek-10 or Crotzni? I’ve had to ask this several times and i’ve repeatedly never gotten an answer because it seems like no one can find a legitimate answer that can hold up an argument.

Phantom was introduced, and showcased as a Melee-Heavy Merc. Does the concept of the word ‘Ninja’ mean nothing you to? The Cloak was intended to give Phantom the ability to walk by his Enemies to easily backstab them. Not Flank his enemies, Any other merc can easily flank the other team with correct Timing on the spawns and or the ability to listen to whats happening around you.

But now Phantom has been reduced to yet another SMG assault Merc who has no other contributions to the team other than being able to Kill, which the majority of the other Mercs can do and still support their Team by healing or giving ammo.

(gg2ez) #50

[quote=“Vulcan;65787”]

But thats just the thing, We do realize Phantom has a Gun, like every other Merc. But whats the point of using Phantom, With his Gun, Over any other Merc with the Kek-10 or Crotzni? I’ve had to ask this several times and i’ve repeatedly never gotten an answer because it seems like no one can find a legitimate answer that can hold up an argument.

Phantom was introduced, and showcased as a Melee-Heavy Merc. Does the concept of the word ‘Ninja’ mean nothing you to? The Cloak was intended to give Phantom the ability to walk by his Enemies to easily backstab them. Not Flank his enemies, Any other merc can easily flank the other team with correct Timing on the spawns and or the ability to listen to whats happening around you.

But now Phantom has been reduced to yet another SMG assault Merc who has no other contributions to the team other than being able to Kill, which the majority of the other Mercs can do and still support their Team by healing or giving ammo.[/quote]

This is who we need on the dev team. Agree 100%, a class introduced as a melee merc shouldn’t be limited to SMG fire and currently - that’s all we can rely on.

(Killerbee) #51

I think they intended to have backstab mechanics in the game as he talks about backstabbing in his profile quote. That and some sort of recon callout as he yells ENEMY INFANTRY!, Enemy is here… etc sometimes.

I’d really rather not him be fully melee focused tho, would be really cool to have ranged options too preferably with silencers so you don’t give away your position immediately.

(ttownjoe) #52

Bad poll, where is the options that phantom still needs nerfed more… I dunno what you all are complaining about, phantoms still has kek10 and crotzni with a fckn HP shield allowing you to get the jump on and leave firefights without death. If your any good at all, he is still OP. Phantom should have invisibility restored and 100% of the shield removed.

(ssdd33) #53

I think they should make phantom harder to see while moving, just like it was when he first came out.

(gg2ez) #54

I didn’t make the poll topic nerf, I made it balance. If you view the options you can clearly see there is a downside to each option.

(Amerika) #55

[quote=“Vulcan;65787”]

But thats just the thing, We do realize Phantom has a Gun, like every other Merc. But whats the point of using Phantom, With his Gun, Over any other Merc with the Kek-10 or Crotzni? I’ve had to ask this several times and i’ve repeatedly never gotten an answer because it seems like no one can find a legitimate answer that can hold up an argument.

Phantom was introduced, and showcased as a Melee-Heavy Merc. Does the concept of the word ‘Ninja’ mean nothing you to? The Cloak was intended to give Phantom the ability to walk by his Enemies to easily backstab them. Not Flank his enemies, Any other merc can easily flank the other team with correct Timing on the spawns and or the ability to listen to whats happening around you.

But now Phantom has been reduced to yet another SMG assault Merc who has no other contributions to the team other than being able to Kill, which the majority of the other Mercs can do and still support their Team by healing or giving ammo.[/quote]

I’ve not only answered this tons of times I’ve posted videos of exactly how he should be played, what makes him good (even if you don’t like the playstyle it’s hard to argue against), and what makes him unique in a fight that other mercs do not have access to.

He wasn’t introduced as a melee merc. His Katana, from day 1, was stated as being a new melee weapon but not tied to Phantom. He was shown in the trailer also only having a handgun and other mercs didn’t even have the correct weapons. It was just a CGI trailer. And in the role call video they highlighted his refractive armor as his ability and it spent time showing off his main weapons and him mostly shooting. It simply “introduced” the Katana just like how the Kukri was introduced with RedEye recently (which will also not be locked to him).

So I am at a loss why people keep insisting he was supposed to be melee only or even melee focused outside of a build of him from a long time ago (and possibly still under NDA?) that was dumped because it was too hard to balance.

(Grave_Knight) #56

None of the above.

(CCP115) #57

[quote=“Amerika;66967”][quote=“Vulcan;65787”]

But thats just the thing, We do realize Phantom has a Gun, like every other Merc. But whats the point of using Phantom, With his Gun, Over any other Merc with the Kek-10 or Crotzni? I’ve had to ask this several times and i’ve repeatedly never gotten an answer because it seems like no one can find a legitimate answer that can hold up an argument.

Phantom was introduced, and showcased as a Melee-Heavy Merc. Does the concept of the word ‘Ninja’ mean nothing you to? The Cloak was intended to give Phantom the ability to walk by his Enemies to easily backstab them. Not Flank his enemies, Any other merc can easily flank the other team with correct Timing on the spawns and or the ability to listen to whats happening around you.

But now Phantom has been reduced to yet another SMG assault Merc who has no other contributions to the team other than being able to Kill, which the majority of the other Mercs can do and still support their Team by healing or giving ammo.[/quote]

I’ve not only answered this tons of times I’ve posted videos of exactly how he should be played, what makes him good (even if you don’t like the playstyle it’s hard to argue against), and what makes him unique in a fight that other mercs do not have access to.

He wasn’t introduced as a melee merc. His Katana, from day 1, was stated as being a new melee weapon but not tied to Phantom. He was shown in the trailer also only having a handgun and other mercs didn’t even have the correct weapons. It was just a CGI trailer. And in the role call video they highlighted his refractive armor as his ability and it spent time showing off his main weapons and him mostly shooting. It simply “introduced” the Katana just like how the Kukri was introduced with RedEye recently (which will also not be locked to him).

So I am at a loss why people keep insisting he was supposed to be melee only or even melee focused outside of a build of him from a long time ago (and possibly still under NDA?) that was dumped because it was too hard to balance.[/quote]

I can see your point, but then my biggest problem is this: What is his role?

Is he just meant to pick of medics? Vassili can do that arguably better. Phantom can’t spot, and as it stands, he’s kind of a selfish merc with a selfish playstyle.

I want Phantom to be viable, but in his current state, I just plain don’t understand.

(gg2ez) #58

This is the part where you comment what you think should happen.

(yusayu) #59

The question is, what his role is supposed to be, if you want to be given a reason to pick a certain merc, he has to fill a certain role and do something that no other merc can do so far.

So, despite what his role call says, lets look at all the options. You could make him an assault, give him strong weapons, maybe a HP shield (as he already has) or an explosive-shield that is stronger at absorbing explosive damage or something like that. He is basically focused on getting kills then and tanking stuff, but that doesnt really fit his style as a ninja-assassin-thingy.

You could focus him on killing fools by allowing him to be fully invisible, but i dont think a character that can just run past enemies without them noticing and then kill them from behind is really balanced. The character that has the first shot, surprising their enemy usually has the kill, maybe unless you are fighting against a rhino. You are getting your first shots into the enemies head 100% of the time and are favored strongly to win the fight. Other shooters do have this problem, where spawning is random (CoD cough) and you are just getting killed from behind without doing anything. In DB thats different, if you get killed from behind that usually means that an enemy made it past the neutral line and through your defense. Allowing a merc to completely subvert this design is not a good idea imo. The same problem arises with melee-only, he either onehits people out of nowhere, making him insanely OP or he doesnt, making him useless.
If you make his invisibility more of a blur, like it is at the moment, then he’ll be incredibly strong against people that dont have the eye for it and insanely useless against people that can see him even from far away (like it is atm.).

You could make him a spotter for the team in such a way that hes sitting behind their team, without the power to do something by himself, maybe just with the Sparks-type loadouts (MP/Pistol), and give him some sort of lasermarker with which he can mark enemies for a certain time. But in the end that will just end up like Sparks, where she is just running around spamming her rezgun and dies when she runs into an enemy. And she has the dual-purpose of her rezgun at least.
Another idea i had the other day was to allow him to deploy some sort of mobile spawn, where a limited amount of teammates can spawn in before it is destroyed. But there is nothing like that in the game atm so you cant really tell weather that would be useless or broken.

You could make him an objective specialist, maybe being able to planet/defuse while invisible but tbh i dont know weather that would be absolutely broken or useless. Would be worth a try tho.

Had no ideas for the invisible medic tho, missing either the healing or the reviving ability for invisibility is a harsh penalty tho.

A funny fire support of whom i thought he would be quiet cool was the japan-style bomber. Being the marker himself, the center for a stronger arty-bombing, whos job it is to bypass the enemies defenses, position himself close to them and then just call the suicide-explosion. Bit like martyrdom.
Or a fire support that has to place multiple markers to mark an area.

(Reddeadcap) #60

Just a though, but what if his cloak was made as visible as it was before and it doesn’t drain when standing still, making him a good meat shield for friendlies and great for pouncing unsuspecting enemies that don’t pay attention to his cloak buzzing and if we take a look at other ways of detection from Brink for ideas;

[url=“https://youtu.be/KKIXokcVU-s?t=1m37s”]A. Have Phantom look at someone to spot them, maybe lasting longer than anyone else’s.

B. Have Phantom do something similar to interrogation/comms hack as he would mark everyone on the enemy team, fitting the line of his Bios of not lending him your phone, rewarding exposing himself for a couple of seconds.