How to balance Phantom (from a community perspective)

(Shroed) #21

[quote=“gg2ez;63398”][quote=“Shroed;63389”]Increase movement speed, attack speed, don’t up cloak duration. Remove armour aspect give him a little health boost in stead of the armor(+10/20hp) and make him less visible

[quote=“gg2ez;63360”][quote=“crabbyDimension;63289”]I think it was really confusing concept this whole Phantom deal to start with. Maybe it was designed for teens already sitting in their Ninja pyjamas at home. Rest of the community couldn’t stand him and of course such overblown character got nerfed.

Now…he’s either like annoying little cousin of yours who you need to keep eye on so he doesn’t give you surprise wedgie or
cosplayer appearing from a time machine ending up to a wrong century and gunned down with ease by those who see him with eyes of pity and amusement. The gurkle sound Phantom makes when going to meet his maker just gives me laughs everytime. Poor dude.

I have absolutely no idea why Phantom doesn’t have that Katana for each of his loadouts. I think he should have that weapon as his “secondary ability” anyway. Of course it depends whether Phantom is supposed to be assassin or also direct melee character.

Taking the armor of from the cloak and making him bit less visible makes sense (maybe adding some time to cloak as well). However I don’t think he’s supposed to go and kill alone bunch of dudes. I see more of him as “surgically” removing specific opponent or causing havoc with surprise melee attack.[/quote]

First order of business, you must’ve been up against some pretty sh*t Phantom’s if they’re “like that annoying cousin”.

Secondly, You’re a pretty special kid if you think ANY merc is all melee. Phantom has a KEK-10. Given that the player can aim, Phantom could take down 2-3 enemies in a single gambit before he dies because the KEK-10 has really good stability and a large clip.

Thirdly, If you think all Phantoms need Katanas - you’re wrong. As a knife Phantom, I’ve scored legions higher than any Katana Phantoms I’ve played with who for the record have been up to level 19 (I’m level 7) purely because as a knife Phantom you actually have to think. High score as knife Phantom is 18734, My friend, a level 37 who uses Katana Phantom has only ever gotten 20922 points.

[/quote]

all loadouts should have katana so he won’t get overpowered speed with the other knives(only if he gets increased in movement speed, atm katana is his worst melee weapon imo)

[/quote]

But knives aren’t over powered. It takes minimum 3 hit whilst full on hugging the enemy and Phantom is too slow to land repetitive hits. Welcome to Dirty Bomb, where melee doesn’t mean sh*t in close combat, unless you have the speed of Donald Trump’s media spread. [/quote]

I don’t think knives are op right now, but i suggested to up his movement and attack speed. If these changes are used the faster knives would become op on phantom==>only katana

(Shroed) #22

Please no. Complete invisibility is definately OP.[/quote]

Woah, OK guys, let’s turn it down a notch. 100% invisible is uncounterable, We don’t want uncounterable.

We need the cloak to be slightly less visible to the point where people actually find **new Phantom’s at least ‘semi-challenging’. [/quote]

best option i’ve seen here is to use the same method as tf2 spy, full invisibility but give him a delay between uncloaking and being able to attack

(gg2ez) #23

Please no. Complete invisibility is definately OP.[/quote]

Woah, OK guys, let’s turn it down a notch. 100% invisible is uncounterable, We don’t want uncounterable.

We need the cloak to be slightly less visible to the point where people actually find **new Phantom’s at least ‘semi-challenging’. [/quote]

best option i’ve seen here is to use the same method as tf2 spy, full invisibility but give him a delay between uncloaking and being able to attack[/quote]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. The TF2 spy is a very slow class to play and I know this as a player with 200+ hours of spy gameplay. The TF2 spy is an overly analytical character that involves precise planning, timing and hours of honing those skills. A game as fast paced as Dirty Bomb has no time for a class like that, besides, it’s not like the devs ever wanted to make a spy copy. Give Phantom some indivuality ffs.

(moonlitAbility) #24

I am all for individuality, but think he basically needs to be completely reworked. can we agree that stealth is basically a fail in just about every pvp game that has it? Being invisible is overpowered and a huge advantage. As such, stealth classes are almost always overpowered / frustrating or un fun to play against even if ‘balanced’. I dont think ive ever met anyone that enjoys playing against invisible people in pvp or finds it a fun fight. As such, those classes often get nerfed to unviability, to try to ‘balance’ the invisibility.

The solution? Reimagine the class without stealth. if hes a melee class, give him run speed/health and focus on the shield aspect of his power. or change his power to being able to disguise as enemys and become a fragger/kira/whatever with their loadouts and name. There has to be something good that isnt invisible.

sadly i feel like its too far down the path for anything drastic like this, so we’re probably stuck with gimpy nerfed phantom for the foreseeable future

(Ronan) #25

It’s far from ‘overpowered’ it appeared the a lot of people didn’t want to learn around how to see him during such. So, instead they ended up coming onto the forums and saying he was overpowered, which in a way he was, sure. That’s why the cooldown was bumped up, and the shield on his armor, since it’s… Refractive ARMOR, it should still absorb some flak. But nonetheless.

Phantom is described as a ‘cloaking commando’ a cloak generally applies hard to see. Which is why I’d be all for them removing the kek10/SMG entirely from him, give him a semi-auto and katana only back, put the visibility back to where it was before this nerf, and remove the god-awful screeching sound of when a Phantom is cloaked. Kills my ears.

But, with Redeye being out, now is a very good time to see what Splash Damage’s plans are for how to further Phantom and tweak him, as they have stated this isn’t the last time he’ll be looked at and tweaked.

(Eox) #26

In my opinion, he do not need a buff : he need a rework. Plain and simple.

Most of complaints about Phantom had one a simple source : the armor mechanic. Removing this alone would have made Phantom almost perfect. In my opinion, the recent nerfs to the character should be reverted, and the Armor system should be removed. I’d keep the invisibility cooldown nerf and the health to 110 nerf, because they also felt needed. Maybe put the health back to 120 if needed though. I’d also change how invisibility works : if you are hit, the invisibility wouldn’t drop off anymore. Instead you would breifly flicker : this would allow good players to keep tracking on you. Some other aspects of the invisibilty would maybe also need to be tweaked.

However, this would not fix another issue with Phantom : his teamplay value. This is why I’d also allow phantom to perform actions while invisible (objectives, helping up, etc). An idea that would not please everyone maybe, but just imagine how awesome it would be if you were able to help up your medic while being invisible ! People that disagree with this may like the idea of a second skill for Phantom instead. @Watsyurdeal suggested an EMP bomb idea that seemed pretty cool. I’ll let him talk about it.

Anyway, what phantom need is more teamplay value, more versatility and no more freaking armor mecanic. He’s supposed to be a stealthy merc, not a gimmicky knight.

(Ronan) #27

@Eox

If they remove the armor, they’ll have to make him 100% invisible. As the point of him having armor and being slightly visible was the fact that if you didn’t see him, you were boned, and if you did, he didn’t die instantly from having to come out of cloak after you already had begun shooting. And as they’ve made it pretty clear he’s not supposed to be COMPLETELY invisible. At least Phantom prior to this nerf did what he was supposed to do. Killed as a lone wolf; that’s how he helped the team.

Personally I’d like to see the cloak go back to where it was prior to this nerf and keep the ARMOR, on his Refractive ARMOR where it’s at. It takes a beating, and can still only be used when he’s cloaked. Which, in turn, his cloak is pretty useless, so it’s only use as I see right now is a temporary bullet sponge.

I’d just like to see them take aspects from closed-beta release to open-beta nerfs to how he performs since Redeye is released and tweak him accordingly so he’s more like how he was in the video when he was debuted.

(watsyurdeal) #28

The thing is invisibility is designed to protect you by making you more difficult or impossible to see to the naked eye. Add armor on top of that, and it’s bullshit.

If they want him to have zero difficulty getting in range to do his job, then it needs to be 90% or full invisibility. If you NEED armor at all, you already fucked up. Even with Vasili and Red Eyes abilities in play, you shouldn’t need armor if the cloak just did it’s job in the first place.

Not only that but he needs a second ability to give him some kind of team work support. I suggested an emp cause it makes the most sense imo, just something designed to deal with deployables. Or at least reveal or show to his team.

Or fuck maybe the person who suggested we split armor and cloak into two different abilities was onto something.

Idk, but I think Phantom’s primary role is a stealth character, so we should balance him around that, tankiness has zero to do with stealth.

(SzGamer227) #29

I personally think that Phantom’s speed and cloaking should be improved a bit, but to counter the additional armor ability which makes him so hard to balance, the cooldown between cloaks should increase based on how much damage was absorbed by the cloak.

(_retired_) #30

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;64376”] Not only that but he needs a second ability to give him some kind of team work support. I suggested an emp cause it makes the most sense imo, just something designed to deal with deployables. Or at least reveal or show to his team.
[/quote]I was thinking in the lines of “meditation” or “concentration” which would allow him if he stops moving to gather information through senses like hearing better enabling him to example spot people in the other room or close to him behind example single wall at that moment.

(Vulcan) #31

I’ve stated how i felt about changing Phantom and everything, but the truth is he needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

I agree with @Ronan’s idea in saying he should be given just the semi-auto and the katana, further pushing him to a Melee-centered Merc.

The Cloak definitely needs to be made less visible, i’d even sacrifice Cooldown and Some of the Armor.

In my opinion, Phantom could use a Speed buff, when you think of Ninja’s, you think of an Agile, sword wielding badass dressed in black. As of the moment, Phantom has 410 speed (Unless what im looking at is outdated) which makes him slower than the majority of the Active Mercs.

Last of all. Melee. The Melee with the Katana needs to be thrown away and rebuilt altogether. I know for a fact that i dont have amazing aim, but the amount of swings that you can miss with the Katana is insane, It feels very unreliable and Slow. Im sure a lot of you have seen the Video showing the Comparisons to the Left Click melee attacks between Proxy/Aura and Phantom. It’s incredible. Melee is one of the biggest defining factors of Phantom, and with that factor as trashed as it is, Phantom is the worst class you could choose if you’d want to go Full-Melee.

(watsyurdeal) #32

The SMGs are fine, I’d honestly say the best route at this point is to just revert the cloak noise changes, and make his invis 90% while walking, 100& while standing still, and 80% while running. And call it a day, oh and turn speed shit of course, but that affects everyone so,

(Shroed) #33

what if instead of making him full time invisible, he gets a flicker every 2 seconds or so.

increase his speed, remove armor , make him full invisible but add the flicker (becoming visible for ,for example, 0.5 sec )

(Ottah) #34

remove melee turn limiter, add 10hp back to the merc to compensate for more visible cloak

(Killerbee) #35

Right now Phantom needs :

  • Increased cloak duration
  • Decreased visibility when crouch walking in cloak
  • Complete invisibility when standing still
  • Drastically lowered noise when standing still
  • More movement speed
  • Shield removal (to compensate for the other buffs)
  • 2ndary ability to equip silencers on his weapons that last a set amount of shots

Melee phantom is something nobody wants back, it’s a nightmare to balance and really lame to play against. Even now with chopper katana can 1 shot half the classes in the game, if you are crafty you can add 1 revolver shot followed by a heavy katana attack to quickly 2 shot every class that has 130 hp. Nobody likes being 1 shot with no warning, look at vasili : it’s always super lame to play against one because he will just pop you instantly and you feel totally helpless.

They should just turn phantom into a medium range silenced weapons assassin, this way he can use his cloak to get up close to ranged mercs like vasili, redeye, kira, arty etc and take them down quickly with suppressed smg fire.

His natural counters would be heart beat sensor, redeyes IR vision, high health mercs, medics that pay attention and quickly revive people he takes down.

(Reddeadcap) #36

Just going to paste my thoughts from another forum here.

Before I believe the only problems with Phantom directly were that the Katana was too powerful for the obvious high damage and many frames and high mobility of the stab and the recharge rate on his cloak was too quick, these were solved but a lot of unneeded changes were done. Yes there were some generally needed changes such as making the SMG-9 more powerful by making the Kek and Crotzni less so.

These are my general thoughts on the changes from both perspectives:

10 less health wasn’t necessary as the main problems were his refractive armor’s shield, mostly his ability to withstand too much damage without the damage sinking into his health, this was removed and it’s cooldown was increased, which was also necesary.

As an example of what these means 10 health left on Phantom’s refractive armor and sinking vs a Fragger grenade that does 150, even if the armor was knocked down to 1 “health” by it draining for being active that explosion wouldn’t affect Phantom at all, that change was understandable, but 10 health in Phantom’s case is a lot. Making him more visible when moving broke the idea of him cloaking in the first place. It’s understandable that he shouldn’t be 100% invisible while moving but before it made sense since he wasn’t noticeable at a distance, at medium range it required some focusing and at his effective range (unless using a Blishlock) you’ll easily hear him if he is moving or see him if he is coming right at you, Now he completely visible or not visible at all when standing still, which will be less effective since Redeye is now available.

My only possible idea for a change besides bringing back his health to 120 and and making him less visible when moving would be to have his cloak only drain when moving as it would make him a perfect meatshield for his teammates with the refractive armor taking some of the extra damage and let him sit around to pounce on enemies rewarding patience and being still in a similar aspect to other Recons not moving to snipe, maybe only if he has his Katana out (Which I believe should only be his as a unique melee weapon or have the beckhill replaced with the kukri), but now even when still Phantom is very loud. With these in mind the only other aspect I believe should’ve been kept was having Phantom unable to cloak if detected by another Recon merc’s abilities and replacing his revolvers for semiautomatic pistols and maybe SMGs for machine pistols.

  • No Stealth drain when standing still, he’s still audible but this lets Phantom pounce on unsuspecting enemies that don’t notice his cloak buzzing as well as serving as a good meat shield, maybe just if he has his melee out.

  • To be as visible as he was before when moving, as even if a Phantom moves around in the dark, around a lot of props in a map, he’s too visible

*Detection from another Recon class disables his Phantom’s cloak.

(Amerika) #37

[quote=“Killerbee;65168”]Right now Phantom needs :

  • Increased cloak duration
  • Decreased visibility when crouch walking in cloak
  • Complete invisibility when standing still
  • Drastically lowered noise when standing still
  • More movement speed
  • Shield removal (to compensate for the other buffs)
  • 2ndary ability to equip silencers on his weapons that last a set amount of shots

Melee phantom is something nobody wants back, it’s a nightmare to balance and really lame to play against. Even now with chopper katana can 1 shot half the classes in the game, if you are crafty you can add 1 revolver shot followed by a heavy katana attack to quickly 2 shot every class that has 130 hp. Nobody likes being 1 shot with no warning, look at vasili : it’s always super lame to play against one because he will just pop you instantly and you feel totally helpless.

They should just turn phantom into a medium range silenced weapons assassin, this way he can use his cloak to get up close to ranged mercs like vasili, redeye, kira, arty etc and take them down quickly with suppressed smg fire.

His natural counters would be heart beat sensor, redeyes IR vision, high health mercs, medics that pay attention and quickly revive people he takes down.
[/quote]

This is exactly how I have always played him. He’s absolutely amazing at doing this and figuring out how to use his cloak/shield to your advantage is also a lot of fun for both offense and defense. I’ve put up multiple videos showing off this playstyle and just how effective it is and creative you can be.

Also, the pole is pretty biased towards making him a melee only merc which I don’t agree with, find enjoyable or think fits into this game. I am also opposed to cheap and unavoidable kills which you’d have to allow to be his bread and butter to make him successful at melee only.

(yusayu) #38

Remove him. He doesnt fit into the game and tbh i cannot tell you of any game that has successfully implemented an invisible melee onehit character without him being either blatantly overpowered or absolutely useless.
Trying to balance Phantom is a waste of time, characters like that just do not work in games like these or any games for that matter.

Yes, i know you wanna be cool and one shot people like a re4l n1nja ass4ss1n just like Vassilis usually just want to be cool 1337 nosc0pe snip0rxx. But think about the whole game for a second.

(Killerbee) #39

[quote=“random;65263”]Remove him. He doesnt fit into the game and tbh i cannot tell you of any game that has successfully implemented an invisible melee onehit character without him being either blatantly overpowered or absolutely useless.
Trying to balance Phantom is a waste of time, characters like that just do not work in games like these or any games for that matter.

Yes, i know you wanna be cool and one shot people like a re4l n1nja ass4ss1n just like Vassilis usually just want to be cool 1337 nosc0pe snip0rxx. But think about the whole game for a second.[/quote]

I wanted to write a really long response but I’ll use this video instead

(yusayu) #40

I wanted to write a really long response but I’ll use this video instead

Yey, give him SMGs, then he isnt melee anymore and he’ll turn into this games version of the Planetside 2 Infiltrator, doing still nothing for the team, just sitting in a building and farming kills.
I’ve seen this story in multiple other games and it never turned out well for the balance.

/edit: Maybe i shouldnt have said ‘remove him’ but rather, ‘rework him entirely’.