How the wrench acts/works

[iwound]

Can you articulate why you think explicit selection is better than “F” style?

F key use should be used less because.

[ul]
[li]its an extra key to try and locate and use, so using main keys would be simpler and faster [/li][li]its monotonous to use same function on different items, lacks depth. pda on too much and unsuitable objects ie pda on gates. [/li][li]gives feeling of being stuck to an object. ie ev repair when you try and pull away. [/li][li]c4 planting you are stuck where you stand. this process is reminiscent of Brink and smart. press f and your stuck while you complete the task. [/li][li]its used too much at which point it can slow down my play when i need speed the most [/li][li]it removes my sense of interaction with the game. you press f and the pc takes over [/li][li]adds to hud clutter [/li][/ul]

used too much. reduce its use where ever possible.
still use for some object interaction where no alternative can be used.

remove where not needed, no tool or weapon used

[ul]
[li]picking up jug carryable [/li][li]reclaiming damaged turret could be auto pick up no need for f key [/li][/ul]

exchange for tool/weapon for tool weapon interaction.

[ul]
[li]c4 plant anywhere.(currently planting can only be done when the f key icon shows) [/li][li]have an indicated area of planting. give me back choice. [/li][li]you can change weapon to pull out of it but that takes time, more than ttk [/li][li]select c4/wrench/turret/mines etc as tool through wheel mouse like weapons. so im using my main controls to perform the action and not searching for an extra key. [/li][/ul]

Good examples.

[ul]
[li]on camden pushing the wagon for cover does not use an f key. this is a good example of creating a more interesting interaction that does not require extra button searching and use and lets me get on with fighting. [/li][li]lifts on CW [/li][/ul]

suggestions

[ul]
[li]replace f keys functions with alternatives [/li][li]maybe have option so players can f key or use tool depending on preference[/li][li]have a hand as a tool/weapon. <- ok that’s way out of the box. [/li][/ul]

This could be auto reclaim when its damaged.

Searching for the f point, taking too long.doesn’t make sense.

Good use of object without an f key. headbutting-tastic. give more.

replace where not necessary.

stuck in anim ala BRINK.

We’ll have another chat about it here at SD Towers and see if we want to change it.

get t’ chips in. sausage dinners all round. but dont f key your sausage.

[Volcano]

[QUOTE=iwound;447759]
[li]picking up jug carryable [/li][li]reclaiming turret could be auto pick up no need for f key [/li][/QUOTE]

something defiantly needs changing with how we interact with the milk jugs its incredibly frustrating with its current method, though your suggestion with turret autopick up would cause some issues when you move to close to it and it removes it when you dont want it to

[iwound]

something defiantly needs changing with how we interact with the milk jugs its incredibly frustrating with its current method, though your suggestion with turret autopick up would cause some issues when you move to close to it and it removes it when you dont want it to

iv edited it to say damaged turret.
but if you had your hand as a selectable tool then that could work for non-damaged turret.

also im sure SD want to make DB available to everyone including people with disabilities.
see SpecialEffect Centre · http://www.specialeffect.org.uk

so choice is key. i would hope that the f key option is left in as a setting for those that NEED it.
i also think its a great charity.

[Kl3ppy]

[QUOTE=Tast1c;447754]
Edit: most of you have those fancy 20 button mice, use it xD[/QUOTE]

I just have 2 buttons + one wheel and 2 thumb buttons

[Jamieson]

Can you articulate why you think explicit selection is better than “F” style?

I think it’s mainly due to the stress and resulting clumsiness that ensues when you’re trying to do an object under fire. Getting there can be a real pain and the last thing you need is to be searching for the right spot that will allow you to press F, and even then you have to wait for the animation to start. In fact I think the biggest advantage of being able to arm it yourself is pre-selection; you can already have your charge out whilst running to the objective and then just slap it on, which saves around a second of time. Now that one second doesn’t sound like a lot but I’ve seen charges being armed at 40seconds to go (ETQW), where if it’d been done just one second later the game would have ended before it went off, not to mention the amount of times I’ve managed to arm under fire only to be downed just as I arm, so that second is very vital. Lastly I think options are the key, why anger those who want it when those who like the F system will still be able to use it just like ETQW did?

[Anti]

You folks are really confusing a lot of smaller issues here and making them into one big thing, it’s very messy. I’ve tried to address each one below, on its own merits.

“I die because I’m stuck using the item I pressed F for”
Yes, that sucks, I’m pretty sure we’ll fix that

“It lacks depth using F compared to having it in my inventory”
Having to use extra buttons to get to an item or perform an action is not depth, it’s bad interface design and a legacy from the old days of FPS games. Depth should come from how you use the mechanic and how you manage its use, not through solving the interface to make use of it.

A key like this helps a lot of players to play the game and actually get to the point where they need to worry about mechanic depth, not difficulty interfacing with the game.

“I want to be able to use abilities where I want”
We don’t currently want you to be able to place C4 anywhere beyond the objective, so this is intentional, not a bug from the F key system.

“I can’t find the activation area to use F”
This isn’t a problem specific to the F key, it’s an issue with the feedback we’re giving you in-game. If we gave you an ability that you could equip in hand, like C4 for objectives, you’d still end up potentially placing them out of range of the objective without this feedback. All the F prompt system is doing is stopping you from getting caught with C4 in hand when you don’t want to be.

“I feel like I can’t move around whilst interacting”
You can, but feedback isn’t very clear when the interaction will break. That’s a feedback issue, not an issue with the F key, it’d affect equipped abilities as well if we had them.

“I have to make THE CLAW with my hand to move and interact at the same time”
You can rebind it, Mouse 4 for the win

I’d put it there by default if I could but we have to cover the very large percentage of players that still use three button mice.

“It just feels wrong in some cases”
We agree with many of those cases, especially the carriables, we’ll address these as we go along

“It wasn’t like this in Wolf ET therefore it must be bad”
:mad::mad:

“Brink used it so it must be bad”
Many hugely successful games with massive fan bases use it without issue. I know this might be upsetting for some of you so here is a Tapir :stroggtapir:

Hopefully that clears things up a bit. Yes we need to improve the way it works, as well as a number of other things, but it’s not inherently a bad design.

[Anti]

Lastly I think options are the key, why anger those who want it when those who like the F system will still be able to use it just like ETQW did?

Options are only good up to a certain point. This lunch time I tried to setup my controls for ARMA 3, it has a lot of options, after 25 mins my face went :mad::mad:

[Mustang]

For me these are the two take home messages.

[QUOTE=Anti;447785]“I die because I’m stuck using the item I pressed F for”
Yes, that sucks, I’m pretty sure we’ll fix that[/QUOTE]
Definitely! Press-and-hold > randomly tap until it stops doing it’s thing.

[QUOTE=Anti;447785]“I want to be able to use abilities where I want”
We don’t currently want you to be able to place C4 anywhere beyond the objective, so this is intentional, not a bug from the F key system.[/QUOTE]
Which really needs to be changed, pre-select should also be an option. The way to do this is to have a plantable zone around the objective, similar to the press F activation zone. This way you can pre-select the C4 whilst running towards the objective, then start planting once you’re in the zone. Side note; you should also be able to move around whilst planting, not be locked to the spot.

I’m not advocating for F to be removed just make it “work” (first quote) and “optional” (second quote)

---

Options are only good up to a certain point. This lunch time I tried to setup my controls for ARMA 3, it has a lot of options, after 25 mins my face went :mad::mad:

For realsies? Making me really want to play this game now, LOVE having maximum customisability!

[chippy]

The only problem I have with it all is the lack of “hold/release”. Start with that and take this discussion from there imo.

Regarding the carryable, for me the problem is that it seems you have to stand so close to it you could lick it, look straight at it, and then you will be able to pick it up. Maybe I’m missing something here but it feels really fiddly to pick them up.

[Anti]

[QUOTE=Mustang;447788]
For realsies? Making me really want to play this game now, LOVE having maximum customisability![/QUOTE]

Choice is good, but there are limits. Do I really need eight buttons related to switching guns that don’t involve direct weapon equipping?

[warbie]

[QUOTE=Anti;447785]“It lacks depth using F compared to having it in my inventory”
Having to use extra buttons to get to an item or perform an action is not depth, it’s bad interface design and a legacy from the old days of FPS games. Depth should come from how you use the mechanic and how you manage its use, not through solving the interface to make use of it.[/QUOTE]

Then why the hybrid of old style and F key? That’s the confusing part. We can drop med packs and revive people as before - which is much quicker and certainly does add more depth than Brink F key solution - yet we have training wheels when hacking and planting. It’s jarringly inconsistent. Being able to bind tools to keys makes as much sense as being able to bind weapons, grenades and med/ammo packs. It’s quick, clean and just a better way of doing it.

[Humate]

My issue with charges isnt so much that there is an F key, this existed in ETQW as well.
Its more so about entering into an animation, before the charge is placed on the objective.

[iwound]

“It lacks depth using F compared to having it in my inventory”
Having to use extra buttons to get to an item or perform an action is not depth, it’s bad interface design and a legacy from the old days of FPS games. Depth should come from how you use the mechanic and how you manage its use, not through solving the interface to make use of it.

i was the only one referring to depth and i didnt say that.

i referred to depth because we pda everything.
and i spoke of having to press the extra f key when i shouldn’t have to.
i didn’t link the two. also you’ve missed my points about the other points.

one being it is a good design. but so is cake but you wouldnt want it all the time. would you.

You folks are really confusing a lot of smaller issues here and making them into one big thing, it’s very messy. I’ve tried to address each one below, on its own merits.

would you like us to start a new thread on each individual f key process or as we have here collect them under one f keying thread.

[Hyperg]

Choice is good, but there are limits. Do I really need eight buttons related to switching guns that don’t involve direct weapon equipping?

Yes I do, because those are state changers and they can be managed way easier than a hot context such as interacting with the objective or engaging an enemy. There are key modifiers (Shift, Alt) and such and I think we can even double that number of abilities and still would be a manageable problem. Given this is a PC shooting game, when it comes to holding buttons, it’s WASD and Left Mouse. When you add “hold interact” into the mix, you’re putting the main action control (left mouse) on hold, basically it becomes useless at that point, even though it would easily map to the given context which is to interact with your objective target.

Again, this only applies to the situations where you need to hold the interact key.

[AntOO14]

Then why the hybrid of old style and F key? That’s the confusing part. We can drop med packs and revive people as before - which is much quicker and certainly does add more depth than Brink F key solution - yet we have training wheels when hacking and planting. It’s jarringly inconsistent. Being able to bind tools to keys makes as much sense as being able to bind weapons, grenades and med/ammo packs. It’s quick, clean and just a better way of doing it.

+1
The beauty of making a pc only game are things like these where you decide where and when to plant/pda, the F key is “console ish”,like press X/Y/B/A on a xbox controller.

[Samurai]

[QUOTE=Anti;447785]
“It lacks depth using F compared to having it in my inventory”
Having to use extra buttons to get to an item or perform an action is not depth, it’s bad interface design and a legacy from the old days of FPS games. Depth should come from how you use the mechanic and how you manage its use, not through solving the interface to make use of it.

A key like this helps a lot of players to play the game and actually get to the point where they need to worry about mechanic depth, not difficulty interfacing with the game.[/QUOTE]

I think depth is the wrong word here, it lacks player control / input… holding one button that does it all for you is pretty boring and requires no thought about the stages involved in doing that action, removing a layer of player interaction/experience.

For example: holding the C4, then finding a location, then arming the C4 - merging it all into 1 key just isn’t interesting at all for player interaction or player experience compared to clicking bind to get the C4 upon approaching area, clicking mouse 1 while targeting the location to plant, switching to an arming tool (DB doesn’t have this?) then mouse 1 again to arm it requires much more interaction like the player feels they actually planted and did something through a sequence of key presses rather than stand still hold F, game takes over, done.

[QUOTE=Anti;447785]“I want to be able to use abilities where I want”
We don’t currently want you to be able to place C4 anywhere beyond the objective, so this is intentional, not a bug from the F key system.[/QUOTE]

Is there a reason for this? i mean it was hardly a core feature in previous games, just one of those side little ‘fun’ features (that were potentially useful) and utilizes all of the defending soldiers capabilities when they can’t carry out the objective. I can’t see it being a game changing feature and no reason to exclude it. I’m not saying it should be a priority right now, it’s just a feature that makes no sense to exclude in the final game stripping away a small layer of fun from the soldier class.

[QUOTE=Anti;447785]“I feel like I can’t move around whilst interacting”
You can, but feedback isn’t very clear when the interaction will break. That’s a feedback issue, not an issue with the F key, it’d affect equipped abilities as well if we had them.[/QUOTE]

I’d say the issue here is the objectives or environments that they are located in do not provide any advantage for moving around. Like Hack objectives in this game are very small and in a box that can be attacked from all angles. Where as in ETQW the hack objective was a large circular tower that you could hack the base by running around avoiding fire from certain angles, it also had little dividers that could act as cover for crouching/proning behind and a ledge above that you could drop down onto and run around.

This is just an example of what i would do in the case of Waterloo Terminus hack objective:

This is moving away from the main point in regards to F Key interaction, but was just addressing your point and making the point that objectives need to be significantly larger and more interesting like this rewarding player movement.

It’s not so much the actual moving, its the player interaction and thought required that moving = narrowing angles = take less fire by choosing direction to avoid enemy fire = do more progress on objective. This is currently missing to a certain degree.

Overall im not asking for the removal of the F Key entirely, mainly just provide the alternative pre selection system alongside it for those of us that are not simple minded or brain dead that actually like stimulating game-play requiring thought and input from multiple interactions within the game.

[warbie]

I think depth is the wrong word here, it lacks player control / input… holding one button that does it all for you is pretty boring and requires no thought about the stages involved in doing that action, removing a layer of player interaction/experience.

Well put.

10 char

[pulley]

RtCW style would be nice. Should give it a try!

[Jamieson]

[QUOTE=Hyperg;447801]Yes I do, because those are state changers and they can be managed way easier than a hot context such as interacting with the objective or engaging an enemy. There are key modifiers (Shift, Alt) and such and I think we can even double that number of abilities and still would be a manageable problem. Given this is a PC shooting game, when it comes to holding buttons, it’s WASD and Left Mouse. When you add “hold interact” into the mix, you’re putting the main action control (left mouse) on hold, basically it becomes useless at that point, even though it would easily map to the given context which is to interact with your objective target.

Again, this only applies to the situations where you need to hold the interact key.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=AntOO14;447803]+1
The beauty of making a pc only game are things like these where you decide where and when to plant/pda, the F key is “console ish”,like press X/Y/B/A on a xbox controller.[/QUOTE]

1+ to both these points.

[RasteRayzeR]

I’m not a fan of keys to do actions, the good old ET:QW style was fun and gave more liberty. I’m not bitching about it, but a change would be nice