do like the onion-idea.
the more you progress to the “core” the more rewarding and challenging the mission. right! love it until here.
the question is however where and how the player influence on the colony can be made visible and grant a unique experience over (a long) time.
the word “overpowered” (sorry) comes to mind when maybe a few large colonies are eating away all other (and especially the new) colonies. – maybe seven level-based oceans?!
That’s the bullet you need to bite when you start an MMO with such a substantial meta game. You either let the players run wild and implement mechanics that regulate it, or you have a big top-down influence as a developer.
There’s diminishing returns and other factors which pull players towards an equilibrium and maintain some sense of balance. But I don’t even think that’s necessary. EVE manages very well with the big player created corporations that run things in that universe, it’s even an essential part of the gameplay as you don’t get far without being part of such a corporation.
You can set some boundaries of course, players don’t need to be driven off the edge of the world. There can be neutral sanctuaries in which players can be safe, hang around and trade. It’s just that if you want to get anywhere, you will need to start/conquer enterprises on the ocean and protect them.
uhm, well imo it should be a sort of quantum leap tho.
the idea shouldn’t just stop too early. for instance, the possibility that each “ark” (colony) could build it-self = the peels of the onion. bit by bit, brick by brick you could add ring by ring as in minecraft - though in a much smaller scale.
by the use of several similar bricks or construction objects that might still turn out to be balanced and fair.
Of course, archipelagos can grow when components keep being added to it. Clusters should be able to grow like that.
so dude, when does our game come out? done with coding yet? i’d happily try a pre-alpha!
Best thing to start with would be to calculate the parameters required for keeping the setting up and conquering colony nodes stable and enduring. Something to simulate hundreds of players interacting with each other across the ocean would be required.
The logistics need to be entirely right. And well, I rather work these things out in private. Paul says ideas are cheap and sure they are, but they’re not free either.
I finished a course in computer game design last year (as in art/story/gameplay aspects, not coding) and an idea along these lines was one of my ideas for a final project.
Basically it would start like EVE, it was a futuristc fps, set on a distant new planet, youd have your whole backstory, your race, your heritage etc, but you wouldnt be bound to a faction. The character creation would offer you in depth control over your physical features, with clothing/armour being a little more restricted for beginners (lots of unlock stuff).
There wouldnt be skills in a tradtitional sense, for the most part you would be bound by your actual skill with the controler/keyboard. Experience points would be used to alter for instance how much a sniper rifle sways when youre aiming it, or how accurate you are with ballistics etc etc.
Players would be able to join together into PF’s (player factions) with the opportunity for the faction to have its own flags, emblems, vehicle decals, weapon decals etc and basically the whole story would be about this new world an a unique resource in offers (inb4 unobtanium :P) wich would present itself in randomly generated ‘sink holes’ that would occur around the world, players in PF’s would be able to build fortifications around them, a good fortification would yield a longer control time, thus more money and resources to build more and more.
thats about as far as i got before i realised the sheer magnitude of what i would have to design, time simply wouldnt allow for it!
however, it still lingers in my mind, a properly full, open mmo world set in an fps genre, where battles were decided based on skill, not stats or rng.
one day…
i hear ya. i understand you’ll plan this out on your own. if i can assist feel free to hook me up via PM but best of luck, man. 
i’ll be your first customer…
and thanks for the discussion, it’s been a blast…
Oh I have notepads full with this. Once you’ve set up the first few premises the real challenge is to go into detail and make it all work.
Players would be able to join together into PF’s (player factions) with the opportunity for the faction to have its own flags, emblems, vehicle decals, weapon decals etc and basically the whole story would be about this new world an a unique resource in offers (inb4 unobtanium :P) wich would present itself in randomly generated ‘sink holes’ that would occur around the world, players in PF’s would be able to build fortifications around them, a good fortification would yield a longer control time, thus more money and resources to build more and more.
Yeah that’s the stuff. Land-based mmo’s like these do have a considerable technical limitation but once that’s broken I’m sure we’re going to see a new era with games like these.
There’s also plenty of nuances to bring into this. Pre-set factions or anarchy, level of creative input from the player, impact of power built through resources and experience etc.
i am thinking so hard to find a workaround these darn XP points. there has to be some system which helps players progress on true experience. somehow like achievements you have to find without the dev/publisher telling you what to do. how ever these would be leaked by the community at a certain point and become needless…
there must be a way…
You need both. Players should be rewarded for time put into the game, after all, that’s what keeps a stable community, and it’s still effort. And a second pane of progression should be reserved for achieving things.
Blizzard has three layers. They have the xp and gold accumulation for the baseline, then the dungeon bosses for beating challenges and then the achievements which may not have a feedback on the gameplay but do reward with objects of status, like titles, clothing and pets.
Their pvp is a different dimension with the same three layers (honour points /arena points / achievements)
A sandbox like game can use a similar structure. That’s the beauty, it incites players to chase ambitions that ultimately lead to conflict which is the emergent gameplay of the game.
The base gameplay of Brink works excellent for acquiring abillities. That can stay. Weapons (vehicles as well) and customisation comes from resources generated by the colonies you’ve conquered. And then there’s vanity clothing which is reached through achievements.
[QUOTE=madoule;286799]i am thinking so hard to find a workaround these darn XP points. there has to be some system which helps players progress on true experience. somehow like achievements you have to find without the dev/publisher telling you what to do. how ever these would be leaked by the community at a certain point and become needless…
there must be a way…[/QUOTE]
its a problem with modern technology. Everything is based around numbers really. Crysis 2 kind of came close to a different model, your character evolves based on what you do and your play style, but it still presents itself via exp points.
The main problem is it would require the computer/server to think for itself in a way, rather than gauging what a player does by looking at what the player does, how they do it, and how long for, it needs to be able to measure your progress.
eg: if a soldier does something in a warzone, rescues comrades/civilians, that soldier is awarded for that action, medals etc. However, if you were to convey this to a computer in a game, it would present itself as; save comrade 0/1 or true/false, something along those lines, triggering a level up or achievment.
The best way i can think of would be to just not have exp at all. Rather, getting loot, money, resources enables you to add armour to your clothes, augment your weapons with better sights, by better ammo etc etc.
With things like acts of heroism like saving a fellow faction member from death, you would be rewarded by another player, or that player themselves, which would build community better than automatic action/reward mechanics.
This works very well in EVE, some Corp leaders post bounties and other misc missions like hauling weapons or escorting someone who is hauling, on corp forums, a corp member can message the leader about the mission. It works very very well, it gave birth to some pretty big assassin corps, with the corp posting bounties in storage pods in high traffic areas which would attract mercenaries etc.
everything you say is absolutely valid. still what i envision is a gameplay idea that jumps beyond these mechanics and makes use of an infinite learning curve of some sort. XP would not be needed to gage character progression. were abstract idea i have to admit but if i had it all sorted out, i’d sold it by now? 
another point is is that we somehow have to unlearn the idea of having only one character. much ratherwe could make use of an army, where we can decide on uniforms of the entire army, platoons, teams, specialists. you may take the role of any of those when specialists form a team, platoon, etc. when needed. by training and unconsciously doing things right, you gain additional new more specialised troops…
@jamesbiff: you are right. i’m getting ahead of myself. unfortunately the numeral basis for these very technical things can’t be left out. still at some point in the future there will be some breakthrough we couldn’t even think of…
Again you need this to reward general effort. It’s essential to reward time and effort spent in an MMOFPS. The length at which those rewards manifest them in the player’s power is different. Brink does this right by letting your options rather than your power increase.
another point is is that we somehow have to unlearn the idea of having only one character. much ratherwe could make use of an army, where we can decide on uniforms of the entire army, platoons, teams, specialists. you may take the role of any of those when specialists form a team, platoon, etc. when needed. by training and unconsciously doing things right, you gain additional new more specialised troops…
You don’t need an MMO for that though, I’d say it even goes against the principles of an MMO. The more power you give to a player, the smaller the world around him becomes.
IMO reward enough should be the “felt” experience by playing the game WITH your “comrades” / “ARK-Mates” aiming for a certain goal: survival, conquest, you-name-it. i do not see a need for a reward in any sort (XP, dig. currency, etc.)
that is an admittedly subjective, naive and generation flower-power idealism for a future gaming experience. but hey i am a dreamer.
however as of now with brink: we are 100% of one opinion. still after months pumped as day one i heard about it…
That means you prefer a more absolute sandbox MMO. Without any clear goals, just your own aspirations. That’s a different structure with implicit goals, like Minecraft has. The creeps and grievers as well as players with conflicting ambitions lead to gameplay on itself and make it more than just a sandbox.
well then, yeah, gimme that! 
however the goals, we outlined over the day are not unclear at all.
a) survival
b) gather resources for a)
–> b1) by trading
–> b2) by yet to defined means (harvesting, farming, …)
–> b3) by means of war
c) over to new shores (higher ranked seas, ARK-update, …tba)
There’s a different structure I’ve written down here that pitched four different races with vastly different ambitions and goals in direct conflict with each other. A Brink MMO is just a logical next step but that one is pretty ambitious to really get off the ground.
Have any of you heard of firefall? its a free mmofps thats supposed to come out at the end of the year made by some of the guys who made tribes, it may have some of the qualities it sounds like youre looking for. I would love to play a game similar to what ure describing. Something akin to planetfall with different races on an updated engine with resource management etc.